Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[bullet purveyor 85]

You have used time and resources to make a new stamina system catering for the life/wasteland crowd, thats gonna turn it off anyway. :huh:
And removed the more advanced fatigue system that the more realism oriented part of the arma community want to have,
which probably gonna need to be reintroduced by mods, ace2 etc.

So soon we will have a system in place that barely no one gonna use?

[etzu 4]

Why are you trying to fix something that isn't broken? What I find confusing is the fact you already had a way for those who didn't want fatigue to turn it off -- albeit took a small amount of arma/scripting knowledge to do it. Seems to me like you're punishing players who prefer realism, to satisfy another set of players who do not.

 

Why not make it a simple server/client setting so everyone can enjoy the many faucets of your hard work?

[phantom_six 18]

I don't get why you guys are removing the old fatigue system. It worked well to me. You carry too much and you run too much you get tired, that is expected. You try to fight while fatigue, you'll miss; that make's firefights much more intense. You try to carry too much, you limit your mobility so spread the weight out evenly with your other teammates. Don't feel like walking? Go drive. Seriously, if someone wants to go casual and just run like a headless chicken then just throw this freaking command here in their missions https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/enableFatigue. If you can just drop a chemlight or something to be able to run again, then there's no difference between enableFatigue false for the casuals and a fatigue system. 

 

If I'm breathing heavily from running so much, I shouldn't be able to shoot straight or concentrate straight anyways. Why get rid of a system that was never broken? Why dumb it down? There's no one to cater here. Casuals already got something such as enableFatigue false. 

 

There were some firefights I have encountered that wouldn't be the same without the stamina. You run in too far and you become tired under a fire, you'll pay the price. You'll have trouble shooting them and your best bet is to suppress or smoke out and try to get away or find a building to cover. You got to recover then you fight again. It makes the firefight feel more authentic since it doesn't end in as fast. It's longer exchange of shots. I like this. It have this authentic feeling to it, not some quick clusterfuck.

[ppitm 43]

This if the first time I can remember that BIS has betrayed its own ideals, both in its vision for the series and in treatment of the community.

[chortles 263]

the part of the player base that never visits this forum

Got it right there.

At some point you need to have the balls to stand up to your community and say "No, this is our vision for how this game should be played".

Someone missed the fact that that's what's been happening in this very thread...

After reading dev statements and the effort to justify to us the system and why they're doing it, I doubt we're going anywhere by discussing this. It's obvious they have spent a lot of time and effort on this which they consider a better system, and I doubt they will proceed to throw it away and reconsider making tweaks to the old system to improve it's transparency and function. I understand and respect that.

What's more, I doubt that the game designers behind this change somehow hadn't already heard quite a few of these responses internally, whether from other devs or from QA. That they  committed the months and resources to a change that they presumably knew would get this response here...

It's the same thing as with prone deployment, majority of us might not like it, but we're not the ones wearing the "Game System Designer" badges, so trying to convince anyone otherwise by trying to refute walls of text with other walls of text is futile

The same could be said for going Steamworks, then for going launch in thirteen weeks (meaning that "alpha" and "beta" were misused) while still being so content-light and feature incomplete -- to say nothing of the specific choices of what got implemented in time for launch and what got pushed back or ruled out -- then for the DLC strategy/releasing paid content at all despite the game's performance issues.

 

Come to think of it, a bunch of the complaints here (particularly about valuing the feedback of players who don't post here) sound similar to the complaints about those...

Let's take DayZ as an example, what's one of the biggest problems in it? You can run around Chernarus in no time so the world isn't immersive and it feels so small. You can always outrun zombies because they can't catch a running man so they're not a threat.

To be fair, lead Brian Hicks admitted that that wasn't the intended end state, but rather a compensation for the lack of vehicles for much of the 'alpha'... but you are right about the gameplay effect of that, especially now that any vehicles are around, however rare.

[fareast 20]

if they still gonna implement this shit stamina i rather have it disabled and wait for the ACE3 guys to make one

[ppitm 43]

I only hope that the fatigue system can be easily re-enabled by modders. The ACE team is obviously overworked, and shouldn't have to waste time correcting this sabotage.

[ceeeb 147]

I have to join the chorus and say I'm not a fan of the new fatigue system. It's too simplistic and a step backwards in many ways.

 

Issues:

 

• Aiming through scopes disables recovery (looking through optics == holding breath?)!
• Holding breath seems to have been completely removed.
• Terrain slope no effect on fatigue or recovery rate, it only limits the maximum speed and stance.
• Fatigue only has a digital effect on player movement - you are fatigued or you are fine. Fatigue should reduce speed gradually.
• Only load affects recovery rate, not movement. Recovery is just as good when jogging up a 30° slope as standing still or kneeling.
• A heavily loaded soldier recovers to the point of being able to sprint again at the exact same rate as an unloaded soldier, even while jogging (always 15 seconds).
• A heavily loaded soldier can go from being completely refreshed to completely exhausted in less than 1 second of sprinting.

 

maxStamina (seconds)  = 60 * (1 - load player)

Stamina recovery rate/second = 1.333333 * (1 - load player)

Sprint requires 1/3 maxStamina

 

[skatardude10 1]

I don't normally post here, but I have been playing with the new fatigue system on dev branch for a day or two now and would like to voice my opinion. 

 

First, I like the visual indicator. It's great to see how much gear you are carrying, and how much you are able to sprint.

 

With that said, I really REALLY hope they find some way to keep the old system in the game. When the old system first came out, it sparked quite the uproar in the community.  But, over time I have (and I assume a lot of people have as well) come to love the 'old' system. It was highly dynamic, and made a TON of sense once a simple concept is understood: Carry more gear and you won't be as quick/agile.  The whole dynamic of the fatigue system adds so much to immersion, that I sorely miss in Dev ATM. Wether I can sprint very far or not does not produce any immersion (for me) like the old system in which I would always think to myself about how to approach the situation: Terrain, Gear, Tactics, Distance, Mobility, etc...

 

While playing with the new stamina system, it entered my mind while on the attack running up a hill with a full loadout "Huh, I am not tired at all."  The whole dynamic just was no longer there.  Terrain, gear weight, distance to my targets. I found myself no longer thinking about any of it, and in the heat of battle (on DEV w/ Stamina) I find myself aching, wishing my avatar was out of breath, unable to make that quick getaway due to circumstance, to make the situation just that much more immersive and entertaining like it has been, but that wasn't the case.

 

How can I script this back? Is there a button I can click in Eden or a difficulty option to switch? Otherwise, this just really kinda killed a huge immersion aspect of the game for me. 

[Horus 83]

 

 

Probably the most important change is that the basic movement (running) no longer deteriorate over time. While the old fatigue was slowly accumulating and gradually impairing your ability to move by animation slowdown and forced walking, the new Stamina let's you run around freely as it is usual in absolute majority of other games. Despite that we understand this as a sort of step back from the mil sim authenticity, we have also recognized that Arma is a platform for a much wider range of gaming experience, that we should respect one of the most fundamental standards in game industry and, most importantly, not to confuse the vast majority of our players.

 

 

Why just don't say we want more $$$ from run-shoot-jump crowd.

[chortles 263]

Specific shout-outs to Greenfist, ceeeb, and skatardude10 for *ahem* actual solid critiques here!

 

I confess that, compared to most of you it seems, the idea of recovering stamina (as opposed to losing it less slowly) while jogging is the only thing that strikes me as "wait, WHAT?" while everything else about sprinting can (and should) be subject to tweaking (and I for one found the increased Fatigue gain while in combat pace rather "gamey" in a way that didn't match the feel of the other speeds). I'm also amenable to seeing what happens with sway effects.

@skatardude10: so far we have a few scripting commands (getStamina, enableStamina, setStamina, isStaminaEnable) and I imagine that more are on the way; in Eden they'll probably just rename "Disable Fatigue" to "Disable Stamina" so a difficulty setting is probably the only non-scripted alternative.

Also, for what it's worth, regarding why Bohemia had overloaded guys tending to have their top speeds not be slowed down (that much) I've tended to be of the idea that they had to expend that much more energy to maintain the same pace as someone less encumbered, so it'd be cool to see that dynamic come in (if it wasn't already there in the current system the experience of anyone else).

[skatardude10 1]

@skatardude10: so far we have a few scripting commands (getStamina, enableStamina, setStamina, isStaminaEnable) and I imagine that more are on the way

 

Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately this only removes Stamina and does not restore Fatigue.

 

Additionally, I ran into a bug:  With or without mods, setting "this enableStamina false" messes up crosshair alignment depending on what unit is played. For example, this affects the Blufor "Ammo Bearer" but not the "Rifleman" units. I have not tested with any other units, but I suspect it has something to do with the unit's loadouts. 

 

Here is a screenshot album to illustrate the bug. I will create a feedback ticket regarding this.  http://imgur.com/a/hFTdO

[chortles 263]

That's definitely worth a ticket, though I'd recommend linking it in the General Discussion (dev branch) thread as well to be on the safe side.

[skatardude10 1]

Ticket created: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=26253 and linked in General Discussion as well. 

[-Coulum- 35]

oops, sorry accidental post

Still too shocked to contribute anything but pure rant at this point

[tpw 2315]

I have to join the chorus and say I'm not a fan of the new fatigue system. It's too simplistic and a step backwards in many ways.

 

Issues:

 

• Aiming through scopes disables recovery (looking through optics == holding breath?)!
• Holding breath seems to have been completely removed.
• Terrain slope no effect on fatigue or recovery rate, it only limits the maximum speed and stance.
• Fatigue only has a digital effect on player movement - you are fatigued or you are fine. Fatigue should reduce speed gradually.
• Only load affects recovery rate, not movement. Recovery is just as good when jogging up a 30° slope as standing still or kneeling.
• A heavily loaded soldier recovers to the point of being able to sprint again at the exact same rate as an unloaded soldier, even while jogging (always 15 seconds).
• A heavily loaded soldier can go from being completely refreshed to completely exhausted in less than 1 second of sprinting.

 

maxStamina (seconds)  = 60 * (1 - load player)

Stamina recovery rate/second = 1.333333 * (1 - load player)

Sprint requires 1/3 maxStamina

 

 

Thanks for working this out, I was trying it the hard way graphing player load vs stamina, ended up with some massive polynomial when trying to fit an equation to the curve  

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Why just don't say we want more $$$ from run-shoot-jump crowd.

 

If most of the A3 community is Casual Zombies/Survival and Cops&Robbers users, shouldn't BIS incorporate their wishes into development instead of ignoring the vast majority of users?

[R3vo 2654]

If most of the A3 community is Casual Zombies/Survival and Cops&Robbers users, shouldn't BIS incorporate their wishes into development instead of ignoring the vast majority of users?

 

They should, but on the other hand they shouldn't bitchslap the part of the community which likes realistic game mechanics, even if they are a minority.

[CaptainObvious 95]

If most of the A3 community is Casual Zombies/Survival and Cops&Robbers users, shouldn't BIS incorporate their wishes into development instead of ignoring the vast majority of users?

 

I think that should be achieved without angering the rest of the playerbase, the playerbase that has played arma since the beginning.

Also I don't think the people you are referring to want to use this new stamina system either.

[twisted 128]

If most of the A3 community is Casual Zombies/Survival and Cops&Robbers users, shouldn't BIS incorporate their wishes into development instead of ignoring the vast majority of users?

 

but these kinds of game could (and did) already just disable fatigue with the appropriate command. why though would BIS geld the fatigue system so harshly?

[Nikoteen 24]

I agree with most of you : I wish I could have the choice in-menu between old fatigue system and new stamina.

I have modded the original fatigue setting to a point I think this is now perfect.

So everytime BIS release a new update that throw away a game mechanism we spent so much time to mod, it's kinda disapointing.

 

Please at least leave us the choice !

[Roach_ 52]

Only know you love it when you see it being removed. (In my case).

[R3vo 2654]

I agree with most of you : I wish I could have the choice in-menu between old fatigue system and new stamina.

 

 

Please no, this will only cause confusion and trouble. We need ONE system for everyone.

[Nikoteen 24]

Please no, this will only cause confusion and trouble. We need ONE system for everyone.

 

The advanced flight model is optional, does it cause trouble and confusion ? btw I use it because casual is not the ARMA Way.

[R3vo 2654]

So you want BIS to create a fatigue system when they can't even create one 1 that pleases us? Don't think so.