AI Discussion (dev branch)

[bonchie 39]

This is one of the bigger immersion killers for me.

Just because an enemy chopper is 2 miles away, he shouldn't magically engage you because you jump into a truck under a forest canopy. Realistically, civilian cars should provide some basic form of stealth.

More so, when enemy vehicles are stolen why should the enemy automatically know it contains enemy soldiers and fire on their own equipment? It would add so much more to gameplay if you could successfully steal enemy vehicles and remain anonymous when traveling (assuming you are a fair distance off). Especially in the Guerrilla portions of the campaign.

This could even make for more dynamic gameplay with checkpoints, etc. actually serving a purpose.

Edited January 27, 2014 by bonchie

[maturin 12]

At least in ArmA 2, riding in civilian cars caused a slight 'debuff' in enemy spotting ranges. This has probably carried over.

[pettka 694]

Could You, please, provide us with some repro, link to the Feedback tracker in ideal case, that we may investigate the issue further? Possible reasoning could be that there is someone with Thermal Imaging in the chopper and it's rather easy to spot something hot even in the forest, but it is hard to say not knowing the details. As for distinguishing friend and foe, AI has some rather advanced IFF methods, that are available even between players (eg. sharing the common knowledge by radio) :icon_twisted:

[bonchie 39]

Could You, please, provide us with some repro, link to the Feedback tracker in ideal case, that we may investigate the issue further? Possible reasoning could be that there is someone with Thermal Imaging in the chopper and it's rather easy to spot something hot even in the forest, but it is hard to say not knowing the details. As for distinguishing friend and foe, AI has some rather advanced IFF methods, that are available even between players (eg. sharing the common knowledge by radio) :icon_twisted:

It can be reproduced in pretty much every situation. This is the way it's always been anytime you get into a vehicle, going back to OFP.

The enemy will automatically fire on you when you are in a vehicle even in situations where they logically shouldn't know you're hostile. The point is not necessarily that the enemy sees you. It's that they shouldn't identify you as an enemy unless it's logical to do so.

I'll give you an example. Let's say I walk into a deserted town and jump into a car sitting behind a house. Even though no one has seen me and I'm in a vehicle that does not qualify me as hostile, enemy AI will still automatically attack me when they spot me.

It would make gameplay more variable if this didn't happen. As well as less frustrating.

Edited January 26, 2014 by bonchie

[doln 10]

I can't really describe a repro unfortunately because it seems to happen completely at random regardless of what mission I'm playing on, or whether I'm on dev or stable, but AI squad leaders seem to have gained an annoying tendency to run in the complete opposite direction of their waypoints. For example, if the squad leader was standing in an open field, and he had a waypoint 200m to his north, he would turn around and start heading south. It's quite annoying.

Or if they're not running in the complete opposite direction they're moving perpendicular as fast as they can for seemingly no reason.

Edit: Here's a video of it happening. After this video was recorded, he turned back towards the mission area after about 2 minutes of running, ran about 500m ahead of his waypoint, turned around, and came back and stopped about 80m from it. I restarted the mission after that.

Ignore the silly voice, that is a bug on my part.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Doln

[maturin 12]

So is this a recent bug or something older already?

Very recent.

[maturin 12]

The complaint is only about civilian vehicles.

[zimms 22]

And captured enemy vehicles maybe, although this could be communicated.

[andersson 285]

This is the way it's always been anytime you get into a vehicle, going back to OFP.

Not true. In arma2 you had to get closer to the enemy before their realized what side you belonged to whenever you were in a civilian or enemy vehicle. I tested this by grouping myself to an AI leader and had the same enemy AI drive past us on a road. If the enemy AI was in a vehicle of his own side the AI leader called it as soon as we saw the car. If I put the enemy AI in a civilian car, or a car from "our" side the AI leader reacted much later when the enemy was much closer. A few times the enemy AI could drive past us without getting noticed.

I haven't done the same test in A3, so I don't know how it works, but I always presumed it was the same as A2..

[bonchie 39]

Not true. In arma2 you had to get closer to the enemy before their realized what side you belonged to whenever you were in a civilian or enemy vehicle. I tested this by grouping myself to an AI leader and had the same enemy AI drive past us on a road. If the enemy AI was in a vehicle of his own side the AI leader called it as soon as we saw the car. If I put the enemy AI in a civilian car, or a car from "our" side the AI leader reacted much later when the enemy was much closer. A few times the enemy AI could drive past us without getting noticed.

I haven't done the same test in A3, so I don't know how it works, but I always presumed it was the same as A2..

I don't have Arma 2 installed to go back and test but in Arma 3 they automatically engage you regardless of the vehicle. I encountered it in the campaign, where I got into a civilian truck (no enemies around) to make up some of the 1.6km to the objective and a chopper immediately showed up and blew me to hell.

I'm clearly showing up on his radar as a red/hostile target the moment I enter the vehicle, which brings him screaming in from miles away.

Edited January 26, 2014 by bonchie

[instagoat 133]

The thread title is misleading. Vehicles in general have poor spotting abilities, especially against opposition vehicles at larger distances. I've some tests at home which I'll post later.

Though, Camouflaging in civilian vehicles and/or civilian clothing should at least make spotting more difficult for the enemy, I agree.

[oukej 2910]

ai sometimes don't even react to being shot now.

It could have been caused by several broken anim. transitions our engine lords were fighting recently during a quest for improved transition system. That should be fixed in the next, upcoming dev. branch.

If that was the case... the AI would have loved to kill you, but it couldn't find a way to rise its weapon back, aim and shoot. ...or maybe the Gandhi algorithm has found its way into the minds of our AI ;)

[maturin 12]

It could have been caused by several broken anim. transitions our engine lords were fighting recently during a quest for improved transition system. That should be fixed in the next, upcoming dev. branch.

If that was the case... the AI would have loved to kill you, but it couldn't find a way to rise its weapon back, aim and shoot. ...or maybe the Gandhi algorithm has found its way into the minds of our AI ;)

Interesting, thanks for the answer. I'm glad to hear this possibility, because it means that the spotting reaction system is retrogressing further.

[das attorney 857]

I'd like to see the following bugs/behaviour addressed if possible

1 - Divers refusing to move underwater in combat mode

2 - AI stuck on bridges (they run around in little circles).

3 - AI drivers crashing on corners (they seem to turn too tight and get stuck on objects) - blind spot in the ray casting maybe? :D

I think if these issues can get worked out it will stop some of the really dumb stuff they do trying to interact in the environment.

Also, there's still a few houses (Land_MilOffices, piers and Land_Barracks) dotted around where they fall through the floor - although it's probably a model issue in those cases.

I have't attached tickets to this post as I can't access the FT from work, but I know they're on there somewhere.

[maturin 12]

Indeed, vehicle and static weapon spotting abilities have almost always been dismal.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

It could have been caused by several broken anim. transitions our engine lords were fighting recently during a quest for improved transition system. That should be fixed in the next, upcoming dev. branch.

If that was the case... the AI would have loved to kill you, but it couldn't find a way to rise its weapon back, aim and shoot. ...or maybe the Gandhi algorithm has found its way into the minds of our AI ;)

I thought that may have been the case as they seemed to be stuck in an ambient slacking off kinda animation.

[Tyl3r99 41]

what do they mean by improved transition system??

[bonchie 39]

I've described the issue at hand. A mod can edit the title if he feels it's misleading. It won't let me.

By Spotting/Identification I mean their ability to classify you as hostile when they spot you.

For vehicles that have radar (like Helicopters), the problem is magnified because you show up as hostile to them the moment you enter a vehicle, even out of their LOS.

Edited January 27, 2014 by bonchie

[Dwarden 1124]

what do they mean by improved transition system??

try drive with tank into hill and over slopes ;)

[andersson 285]

I don't have Arma 2 installed to go back and test but in Arma 3 they automatically engage you regardless of the vehicle. I encountered it in the campaign, where I got into a civilian truck (no enemies around) to make up some of the 1.6km to the objective and a chopper immediately showed up and blew me to hell.

I'm clearly showing up on his radar as a red/hostile target the moment I enter the vehicle, which brings him screaming in from miles away.

That is too bad. I really liked that improvement in A2.

[five_seven5-7 56]

I notice the AI infantry combat has experienced an improvement:

+ adapted to unknown frontal attack by trying to move and attack from the flanks

+ when player hides in a house, AI positioned covering the house through the front and from behind. Came to happen that the first mission of Adapt, the AI has positioned itself in a high covering the window and whenever I walked past, he started to fire. Looks like a pre pinned down situation, only missing the use of grenades and room cleaning.

But also some cons:

- Friendly AI can´t follow us through shortcuts, passing fences, they go around until find a opening

- Can't select priority target who can't be destroyed (trucks)

- Don't use grenades to scare us away

If BIS used similar AI used by Halo, would make fightings more competitive:

Enemies use cover very wisely, and employ suppressive fire and grenades.

The squad situation affects the individuals, so certain enemies flee when their leader dies.

A lot of attention is paid to the little details, with enemies notably throwing back grenades or team-members responding to you bothering them.

Reference:

http://aigamedev.com/open/review/halo-ai/

[froggyluv 2130]

+ when player hides in a house, AI positioned covering the house through the front and from behind. Came to happen that the first mission of Adapt, the AI has positioned itself in a high covering the window and whenever I walked past, he started to fire. Looks like a pre pinned down situation, only missing the use of grenades and room cleaning.

/

Yep that happened to me again and again in that mission. The AI does seem to somehow know to use elevation when needed and targets those windows hard. Add BCombat mod to that and 1-2 guys also come inside to hunt you down. Gotta admit I love seeing that.

- Friendly AI can´t follow us through shortcuts, passing fences, they go around until find a opening

How do you mean? I've had my AI guys drop and crawl under fences to stay with me :confused:

[Varanon 892]

How do you mean? I've had my AI guys drop and crawl under fences to stay with me :confused:

They crawl under fences, but they won't step over anything. So a fence is OK, but a low wall will stop them.

[Furret 0]

It can be reproduced in pretty much every situation. This is the way it's always been anytime you get into a vehicle, going back to OFP.

Make a 100% reproducible mission the devs can look at, this will help it to be fixed. Everyone wins.

[LykosMactire 298]

I notice the AI infantry combat has experienced an improvement:

+ adapted to unknown frontal attack by trying to move and attack from the flanks

+ when player hides in a house, AI positioned covering the house through the front and from behind. Came to happen that the first mission of Adapt, the AI has positioned itself in a high covering the window and whenever I walked past, he started to fire. Looks like a pre pinned down situation, only missing the use of grenades and room cleaning.

But also some cons:

- Friendly AI can´t follow us through shortcuts, passing fences, they go around until find a opening

- Can't select priority target who can't be destroyed (trucks)

- Don't use grenades to scare us away

If BIS used similar AI used by Halo, would make fightings more competitive:

Enemies use cover very wisely, and employ suppressive fire and grenades.

The squad situation affects the individuals, so certain enemies flee when their leader dies.

A lot of attention is paid to the little details, with enemies notably throwing back grenades or team-members responding to you bothering them.

Reference:

http://aigamedev.com/open/review/halo-ai/

i do agree with at situation with the HALO AI, but it would make it a lot harder because how easy it is to die in Arma