AI Discussion (dev branch)

[SaOk 112]

AI team-members seem to always refuse to heal player when using the 6-menu action. They report instantly negative. Heal yourself command still works for them.

[froggyluv 2130]

AI team-members seem to always refuse to heal player when using the 6-menu action. They report instantly negative. Heal yourself command still works for them.

Noticed this as well.

On different note, does long grass offer any view block against AI whatsoever? Was pulling my hair out fighting AI who were directly at the bottom of a hill maybe 50-75m out in which I couldnt make out any enemy due to grass but the AI were picking me off every time as if they had zero problem makingh me out. The AI were prone as well. After turning off Terrain detail level completely, they stood out plain as day...

This is depressing if true, must we just forgo all terrain niceness to share the same perspective as AI? Is Grass bad and Bush good?

[SaOk 112]

Got also a message, that the AI engineers also refuse to repair vehicles.

[KeyCat 131]

I found that setting a group to EnableAttack False is enough to stop units that discover a dead body from going after the players current position - I tested this one out pretty well, the Ai units goto the players position regardless of LOS, I actually ran out about 50 meters out of sight and let the Ai group find the dead body from my kill, the leader sent the units right after, with no prior knowledge of my location or even my existence. After being able to stop the groups rom doing this, one can then code a more desirable response for situations where clairvoyant ai is very undesirable (like bases and towns).

Pretty much sums up my experience, they home in on you pretty quick and since the hide body function is removed and you can't really hide (ghille or no ghillie) in tall grass/bushes or other vegetation except for the tall "elephant grass" it's very hard to do stealht ops. You have to haul **s directly after a kill and get 200+ m away then let them cool down before sneaking in again.

Don't get me wrong! It's great the AI reacts to dead bodies they just need to be more clueless about your pos.

Improved Ai detection is great, but I just hope it's kept between the lines, so that the already somewhat clairvoyant Ai does not become more so, to the degree of not being able to override it any more.

It's probably hard for the devs to find a good balance but the AI's terminator detection abilities at closer range (approx up to 150 m) needs to toned down to a more realistic level. In A2 you could at least hide in ghillie if prone and completely still in taller grass even if the enemy walked past you at very very close range.

/KC

Edited March 7, 2015 by KeyCat

[Jackal326 1158]

It's probably hard for the devs to find a good balance but the AI's terminator detection abilities at closer range (approx up to 150 m) needs to toned down to a more realistic level. In A2 you could at least hide in ghillie if prone and completely still in taller grass even if the enemy walked past you at very very close range.

Even without a ghillie suit is was possible in some of the longer grass on Chernarus. Had an awesome experience playing co-op one time where a large AI patrol walked right over my team-mates and I as we lay in long grass waiting for them to pass, rather than initiate the contact and most-likely get rinses due to the AI's far superior numbers. One of the AI guys stood on my hand and still didn't notice us (night time with AI lacking NVGs).

I long for this level of detection (or lack of level) to return to the game. As the AI stand right now (without mods) they're like Robocop and Terminator had a child...

[EddiePrice 16]

I long for this level of detection (or lack of level) to return to the game. As the AI stand right now (without mods) they're like Robocop and Terminator had a child...

Agreed. What I would say is a lot of these issues can be solved with some tweaking of the difficulty settings. It takes some trial and error to get the desired result, especially when using mods that change the AI behaviour, but it can be done with great success.

[froggyluv 2130]

It's probably hard for the devs to find a good balance but the AI's terminator detection abilities at closer range (approx up to 150 m) needs to toned down to a more realistic level.

Yup, most if not all shooters only have to deal with realistic CQB LOS, never about the medium to exceptionally long range variety. That, I guess, is why it feels so schizophrenic right now -try and plant an AI cqb ambush, like jumping out from behind trees and your likely to have them spotted 5 min ago "Man, 1 click, Right."

[Stagler 39]

Agreed. What I would say is a lot of these issues can be solved with some tweaking of the difficulty settings. It takes some trial and error to get the desired result, especially when using mods that change the AI behaviour, but it can be done with great success.

[Guest]

I seemed to have stumbled upon a scenario where I can constantly re-produce the Opfor Ai not firing upon the player. And it seems to be directly linked to "MIDDLE" stance.

I have the mission contents in the spoiler tab. Wait a second for the guy to go into crouch stance, then shoot him in the leg. At least on my end, every time he turns towards me, and just sits there doing nothing. He will actually continue to track the player if they go left or right, and will eventually shoot if the player moves close enough to him.

Version 1.40

The mission is on Stratis. Mission named : TempUnitFailToFire.Stratis

Mission.sqm contents in Spoiler tab.

version=12;

class Mission

{

addOns[]=

{

"A3_Characters_F_OPFOR",

"a3_characters_f",

"A3_Characters_F_BLUFOR",

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"A3_Characters_F_OPFOR",

"a3_characters_f",

"A3_Characters_F_BLUFOR",

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=1979511;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

class Groups

{

items=2;

class Item0

{

side="EAST";

class Vehicles

{

items=1;

class Item0

{

position[]={1616.1974,5.5,5334.4385};

azimut=448.27548;

id=0;

side="EAST";

vehicle="O_Soldier_F";

leader=1;

skill=0.60000002;

text="Guy1";

init="this SetUnitPos ""MIDDLE"";this SetBehaviour ""SAFE"";This allowFleeing 0;";

};

};

};

class Item1

{

side="WEST";

class Vehicles

{

items=1;

class Item0

{

position[]={1604.4449,5.5,5299.1377};

azimut=18.758499;

id=1;

side="WEST";

vehicle="B_recon_M_F";

player="PLAYER COMMANDER";

leader=1;

skill=0.60000002;

init="this allowdamage false; This SetCaptive false;";

};

};

};

};

class Sensors

{

items=2;

class Item0

{

position[]={1662.3829,5.5,5295.4492};

a=0;

b=0;

angle=133.047;

activationBy="ALPHA";

repeating=1;

interruptable=1;

age="UNKNOWN";

text="knows about";

expActiv="player sidechat format [""Guy1 knows about player %1"", (Guy1 KnowsAbout Player)];player sidechat format [""Guy1 Behaviour is %1"", (Behaviour Guy1)];";

class Effects

{

};

};

class Item1

{

position[]={1615.8875,5.5,5334.0972};

interruptable=1;

age="UNKNOWN";

class Effects

{

};

};

};

};

class Intro

{

addOns[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=14998652;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

};

class OutroWin

{

addOns[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=8356023;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

};

class OutroLoose

{

addOns[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=15327673;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

};

I tried UP and DOWN stance on the unit, and he does just fine there, fires in response to the hit like he should. I tried a different rifle, made no difference. The test takes place on a runway strip, no obstructions, about 50 meter distance.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Guest

[Variable 322]

On different note, does long grass offer any view block against AI whatsoever? Was pulling my hair out fighting AI who were directly at the bottom of a hill maybe 50-75m out in which I couldnt make out any enemy due to grass but the AI were picking me off every time as if they had zero problem makingh me out. The AI were prone as well. After turning off Terrain detail level completely, they stood out plain as day...

This is depressing if true, must we just forgo all terrain niceness to share the same perspective as AI? Is Grass bad and Bush good?

That shouldn't happen, if it does, there's probably a bug in the surface configuration. You can open a ticket with the exact spot and the grass type.

[Greenfist 1863]

On different note, does long grass offer any view block against AI whatsoever? Was pulling my hair out fighting AI who were directly at the bottom of a hill maybe 50-75m out in which I couldnt make out any enemy due to grass but the AI were picking me off every time as if they had zero problem makingh me out. The AI were prone as well. After turning off Terrain detail level completely, they stood out plain as day...

This is depressing if true, must we just forgo all terrain niceness to share the same perspective as AI? Is Grass bad and Bush good?

When you're on a surface defined as grassy (the actual visible grass has no effect), your "size" is reduced in the eyes of the AI. I.e. it's harder for them to spot you.

I'm not 100% sure but I think this only applies until they spot you. So when they already know about you, you can't hide in the grass anymore or break their line of sight with it.

According to my knowledge it's not supposed to work that way, but in practice, crawling to safety in grass is the same as on pavement. Perhaps it just needs some tweaking of skill settings or the engine.

[oukej 2910]

AI team-members seem to always refuse to heal player when using the 6-menu action. They report instantly negative. Heal yourself command still works for them.

Got also a message, that the AI engineers also refuse to repair vehicles.

Strange, can't reproduce that with simple soldiers placed in the editor. Do you have any more details, pls?

[bad benson 1733]

When you're on a surface defined as grassy (the actual visible grass has no effect), your "size" is reduced in the eyes of the AI. I.e. it's harder for them to spot you.

I'm not 100% sure but I think this only applies until they spot you. So when they already know about you, you can't hide in the grass anymore or break their line of sight with it.

According to my knowledge it's not supposed to work that way, but in practice, crawling to safety in grass is the same as on pavement. Perhaps it just needs some tweaking of skill settings or the engine.

i remember when i worked on a terrain in arma 1 that there was this second layer over the terrain that units would sink in to (i think it's still there now). reason i mention it is that i experimented with clutter size back then for a wheat field and noticed that that layer would seem to adapt to hte height of the clutter models. would be great if the AI would kind of use that adaption for determining their spotting ability.

[2nd ranger 282]

EXE rev. 129614 (game)

Tweaked: AI aiming error when it has lost sight of a target

This should improve situations when AI e.g. changes stance and because of that looses the line of sight to the target.

In such case - even if the AI still has good information about the target from other group members - the AI should no longer be able to put an aimed shot.

This is fine when there's only vegetation between the AI and the target, but they need to learn to stop firing when there is a solid object between them and the enemy. A common situation is this: An AI in a building sees an enemy passing by the doorway outside, and begins to fire. He continues to track and fire at the target even though he's just shooting at a brick wall.

[Greenfist 1863]

This is fine when there's only vegetation between the AI and the target, but they need to learn to stop firing when there is a solid object between them and the enemy. A common situation is this: An AI in a building sees an enemy passing by the doorway outside, and begins to fire. He continues to track and fire at the target even though he's just shooting at a brick wall.

Maybe he knows his bullets will penetrate the wall? I mean, I do the same.

I may be very wrong, but I thought they only shoot when the obstacle is likely penetrable?

[2nd ranger 282]

I'm talking about solid stone walls here, walls that 7.62 doesnt even penetrate. And AI who fire at these walls regardless of whether they have 7.62, 6.5 or 5.56. Even if they did know their rounds would penetrate, it still looks silly.

Edited March 9, 2015 by 2nd Ranger

[cyruz 103]

I'd rather they fired too much than not enough though and watching them "suppress" locations seems to help game play more than just shooting at things they can 100% see, however when inside buildings it does look a bit stupid...

[Greenfist 1863]

I'm talking about solid stone walls here, walls that 7.62 doesnt even penetrate. And AI who fire at these walls regardless of whether they have 7.62, 6.5 or 5.56. Even if they did know their rounds would penetrate, it still looks silly.

Yes, it can look silly, but the fact that they don't immediately stop firing when the LOS is lost, is a good feature IMO. Could use a little tweaking though.

i remember when i worked on a terrain in arma 1 that there was this second layer over the terrain that units would sink in to (i think it's still there now). reason i mention it is that i experimented with clutter size back then for a wheat field and noticed that that layer would seem to adapt to hte height of the clutter models. would be great if the AI would kind of use that adaption for determining their spotting ability.

By the way, there isn't an actual separate grass layer above the ground, the objects are only rendered lower than they really are.

Here's a short video demonstrating it:

The bright pink icon is exactly at the unit's real eye position. Notice how the unit goes up and down depending on the surface he's on.

[froggyluv 2130]

even if the AI still has good information about the target from other group members - the AI should no longer be able to put an aimed shot.

Hopefully they will occasionally if not frequently still lay down suppressive fire in these situations. Feels way more human than "Target Green. Target Red."

[KeyCat 131]

Just had a quick test with with todays build (1.41.129.614) my old "pet peeve" mission linked to earlier in this thread. I immediately noticed improvement in AI's reaction if you killed one of them from ~250 m with 1 or max 2 rapid shots (if I fired more they spotted you as it should be). Firing from concealed position with MK18 without silencer.

Now the AI initally act quite belivable and do not just turn around and fire on you within a split second. They now seems a bit confused and sometimes they got the direction of the fire quite right but not everytime, at times they where way off in direction as well as distance to me (I use a very simple script moving a flag pole to their percieved position of the enemy).

After a while SL sent out a couple of the soldiers in pairs (they use to do that before som nothing new) and they searched around the perimeter. However as soon as they get within ~150 range and a single mm2 of your body is in their LOS they spot you just like before. I need to test more at different distances as well as CQB and different ToD but it looks like you are on the right track.

Just wanted to share my quick observation. Anyone else noticing similar things???

/KC

Edited March 9, 2015 by KeyCat

[Guest]

Just updated to running the latest version of the Development version.

Wondered if anyone else has seen, or can re-produce the issue I posted on earlier, this issue is still present in the current development version, at least on my end. On my end, when the player hits the Opfor unit in the leg, the Opfor unit in Middle stance will not fire on the player in the mission provided in the Spoiler tab. This is actually at roughly 50 meters, with no objects in the way, including no grass. In fact, I have not had one test where he actually does fire on the player in response to the hit, he just watches the player and does nothing more. Mission is on Stratis.

Mission name: TempUnitFailToFire.Stratis

version=12;

class Mission

{

addOns[]=

{

"A3_Characters_F_OPFOR",

"a3_characters_f",

"A3_Characters_F_BLUFOR",

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"A3_Characters_F_OPFOR",

"a3_characters_f",

"A3_Characters_F_BLUFOR",

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=1979511;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

class Groups

{

items=2;

class Item0

{

side="EAST";

class Vehicles

{

items=1;

class Item0

{

position[]={1616.1974,5.5,5334.4385};

azimut=448.27548;

id=0;

side="EAST";

vehicle="O_Soldier_F";

leader=1;

skill=0.60000002;

text="Guy1";

init="this SetUnitPos ""MIDDLE"";this SetBehaviour ""SAFE"";This allowFleeing 0;";

};

};

};

class Item1

{

side="WEST";

class Vehicles

{

items=1;

class Item0

{

position[]={1604.4449,5.5,5299.1377};

azimut=18.758499;

id=1;

side="WEST";

vehicle="B_recon_M_F";

player="PLAYER COMMANDER";

leader=1;

skill=0.60000002;

init="this allowdamage false; This SetCaptive false;";

};

};

};

};

class Sensors

{

items=2;

class Item0

{

position[]={1662.3829,5.5,5295.4492};

a=0;

b=0;

angle=133.047;

activationBy="ALPHA";

repeating=1;

interruptable=1;

age="UNKNOWN";

text="knows about";

expActiv="player sidechat format [""Guy1 knows about player %1"", (Guy1 KnowsAbout Player)];player sidechat format [""Guy1 Behaviour is %1"", (Behaviour Guy1)];";

class Effects

{

};

};

class Item1

{

position[]={1615.8875,5.5,5334.0972};

interruptable=1;

age="UNKNOWN";

class Effects

{

};

};

};

};

class Intro

{

addOns[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=14998652;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

};

class OutroWin

{

addOns[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=8356023;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

};

class OutroLoose

{

addOns[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=15327673;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

};

If anyone tries the test, I should note that one should wait a second for the Opfor unit in view to crouch before hitting them, as I have seen that both Up and Down positions do not have this issue (so far), only the Middle it seems.

/Edit

Did some more tests.

Reveal does not enable the unit to fire. A hit near has the same results, unit turns towards player and will not target/fire, but does track. I tried running in front of him at about 50m out (while he is in Middle stance), same results, unit watches, has full 4 knowsAbout value of the player, but will not target nor fire. If I change the unit to Up stance, everything works fine. All tests are giving back proper Unit knowsAbout Player values.

Ran tests from 150 meters out to 10 meters to the Opfor unit. The unit would not fire from 150 meters to 20 meters distance from player, once at 10 meters, the Ofpor unit actually stands up on his own, and does fire.

This would be Imo a pretty big bug, provided it is not for some reason isolated to my end.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Guest

[somesangheili 111]

Just witnessed AI trying to shoot each other through the south wall of the hospital building in Kavala, as if they could see through through the wall. Most likely a problem with the building itself

[chortles 263]

JHard, were you able to reproduce this with any other building?

[bad benson 1733]

By the way, there isn't an actual separate grass layer above the ground, the objects are only rendered lower than they really are.

Here's a short video demonstrating it:

The bright pink icon is exactly at the unit's real eye position. Notice how the unit goes up and down depending on the surface he's on.

nice debugging there.

interesting info. thanks! i still wonder though if that offset value could somehow be used to make one less visible to the AI. maybe adding it to the stealth value from the config? or maybe using it to add some error to the perceived position? dunno. but seeing it change its height seamlessly makes it look very useful. who knows. BI probably already uses it for the surface stuff introduced in arma 3.

[Greenfist 1863]

nice debugging there.

interesting info. thanks! i still wonder though if that offset value could somehow be used to make one less visible to the AI. maybe adding it to the stealth value from the config? or maybe using it to add some error to the perceived position? dunno. but seeing it change its height seamlessly makes it look very useful. who knows. BI probably already uses it for the surface stuff introduced in arma 3.

I think that's how it works currently. The same "stealth" value (or whatever it's called) is used to change AI's spotting ability and sink the distant units.

According to Oukej:

Grass is a bit different thing. The size of your silhouette is reduced by the size of the grass clutter, which has an areal application. So, if you are in a tall grass and you go prone the AI won't see you. On the other hand, one individual tussock doesn't play a role. The size of the clutter (surface) should be configured on both Altis and Stratis to reflect the actual visible size.