AI Discussion (dev branch)

[froggyluv 2130]

In general ai seems to lack the ability to use sound to shift their facing in order to search for an enemy. Stand behind an ai and fire an entire magazine over their head and they will just go prone and continue facing forward. Even without sound they should be occasionally looking around checking their surroundings.

Yes please make this a primary concern -both proper orientation and scanning will give the feeling of "your being zeroed in on" and go a long way to giving a human element to AI.

Overall f*cken thrilled you guys are continuing in this direction. Hell I just bout Rome 2 last weekend steam sale and the AI is WORSE than the original/shogun/medival ect..! I still love the series but really? After all these years with a huge budget and Sega backiing you can't do anything new with your AI..?!

Sorry OT /rant

[enex 11]

SO basically:

If getting shot at [ haven't detect enemies ] (if cover close) go prone, get behind cover, find enemy, kill

If getting shot at [ haven't detect enemies ] (if no cover close) sprint for closest cover, prone, find enemy, kill

If not getting shot at [ HAVE detected enemies ] (find cover) engage

-More the area is suppressed (quantity of bullets) = more hiding before cover less of engaging

-Less the area is suppressed = more bullets can AI send down the range

I think similar routines would make suppression viable.

[froggyluv 2130]

Todays Ai release:

(E.g. units under fire looking somewhere else and not turning to the source of the fire)

Sounds promising :)

[KeyCat 131]

I think the current extent of the feature is that ai simply go to danger mode when bullets pass nearby (rather than before, when close impacts or wounds/death were needed to get them to enter danger mode). Otherwise I believe they are still using their regular danger routine. There is no new "suppression routines" as of yet. Nonetheless the new additions are a great step because it likely gives modders a much more efficient method of detecting flyby's (to trigger their own scripted routines) and comments like this: "Similar to recent work on pathfinding, these commits are part of longer-term AI development." indicate that devs are going to build upon this, hopefully making the suppression effects you are expecting.

Makes sense. I'm positive we will see suppression in stock sooner or later, hopefully sooner :)

Redid some old tests last night (build 1.39.129.316) and the AI still have it's terminator uber spotting abilities capable to spot you hiding in vegetation with a blink of the eye after you fired a few shots (no silencer) and they entered combat mode if cm2 of you avatars head/body is in their LOS when they look in your general direction.

This is how it look from enemy POV when standing ~5 m in front of the grass/bush you are hiding in, the barrel of the gun is pointing strait to the prone snipers head.

This is on medium range ~100-200 m and it doesn't matter how well you try to conseal yourself (ghillie or not). Only way to avoid them detecting you is to hide so not a single cm2 of you head/body is in thier LOS (like behind a solid object or ridge) before they look in your direction.

It's much better on longer ranges ~300-400+ m and it takes them some time to move out in pairs and search for you to zero you in but as soon as they get closer they spot you if any part of your head/body are in their LOS even if prone in concealment and completely still in a ghillie.

Old repro mission can be DL here...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4b02p9fpow6k7ix/A3_AI_Terminators.zip?dl=0

Tested with

skillAI=0.5;

precisionAI=0.34999999;

/KC

Edited February 17, 2015 by KeyCat

[-Coulum- 35]

• Fixed: AI reaction to danger should be faster
  

The last one being a fix of a bug when the AI wouldn't acquire the target correctly even though it already had enough info about it. (E.g. units under fire looking somewhere else and not turning to the source of the fire)

This seems to have done the job well enough. Ai will turn around to face the general direction that a sound comes from. However, the way the rotating/spotting works isn't exactly as expected. Take a situation where you fire a shot off (say from 100m), past the ai while in the open. Currently their reaction is:

• Immediately go prone. Pause and do nothing. This can last several seconds depending on the distance to you. Then they spin to your direction and immediately spot you and open fire.
  
• 
  

The expected behaviour would be:

• Immediately go prone. Immediately spin to the direction of the gunshot. Then pause for a few moments (as they are now "spotting you"). Then after that they can open fire.
  

Overall results would pretty much be the same but the latter seems more human and gives the player a better idea of what the ai is doing.

Also I believe that after this latest dev patch (EXE rev. 129341 (game)) the ai seem more accurate in comparison to earlier devbranches.. Never mind. I think the ai appear more accurate at close range because they can hear you coming running up to a corner, so when you round it they are ready for you unlike before this dev branch. This is good.

Edited February 18, 2015 by -Coulum-

[Bouben 3]

This seems to have done the job well enough. Ai will turn around to face the general direction that a sound comes from. However, the way the rotating/spotting works isn't exactly as expected. Take a situation where you fire a shot off (say from 100m), past the ai while in the open. Currently their reaction is:

• Immediately go prone. Pause and do nothing. This can last several seconds depending on the distance to you. Then they spin to your direction and immediately spot you and open fire.
  
• 
  

The expected behaviour would be:

• Immediately go prone. Immediately spin to the direction of the gunshot. Then pause for a few moments (as they are now "spotting you"). Then after that they can open fire.
  

Overall results would pretty much be the same but the latter seems more human and gives the player a better idea of what the ai is doing.

Agreed. This is one of the main factors that make AI in Arma look so dumb.

[KeyCat 131]

Then they spin to your direction and immediately spot you and open fire.

+1

Guess this is part of the problem I described above and hopefully BIS can improve it.

/KC

[chortles 263]

SITREP #00094's TL;DR on some of the changes:

On a related note, recent changelogs have contained notes relating to the detection of bullets impacting / flying around units. Let's take a quick look at how it all fits together. The first changes (released for a wee while now) were adjustments to pathfinding. If an area is under heavy fire, the AI will now prefer (in direct contradiction to the Kenny Loggins school of thought) to plan around such danger zones. More recently, the detection of bullets passing close by units was enabled. This information is now mapped to the behaviour of a unit reacting to threats. The next step will be to connect this to penalties in AI aiming accuracy. Although we're at an early stage, we can say that our goal is to improve the experience of firefights by refining their lethality and promoting / rewarding the use of legitimate tactics / maneuvers. However, making changes to core mechanics is not without risk. If we're not satisfied with the results, this work may yet not make it into Marksmen DLC.

It's not suppression, but it sure sounds like a step on the road to that...

[-Coulum- 35]

On a related note, recent changelogs have contained notes relating to the detection of bullets impacting / flying around units. Let's take a quick look at how it all fits together. The first changes (released for a wee while now) were adjustments to pathfinding. If an area is under heavy fire, the AI will now prefer (in direct contradiction to the Kenny Loggins school of thought) to plan around such danger zones. More recently, the detection of bullets passing close by units was enabled. This information is now mapped to the behaviour of a unit reacting to threats. The next step will be to connect this to penalties in AI aiming accuracy. Although we're at an early stage, we can say that our goal is to improve the experience of firefights by refining their lethality and promoting / rewarding the use of legitimate tactics / maneuvers. However, making changes to core mechanics is not without risk. If we're not satisfied with the results, this work may yet not make it into Marksmen DLC.

Awesome.

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

In simple terms, it sounds like units when surrounded/under-fire will have a weapon sway/recoil penalty, thus rewarding those units that do not get outmaneuvered.

[five_seven5-7 56]

There were some reasons behind the lower ranger (depleting ammo too fast vs. rearming, being too deadly on large dist....) but we can still improve it if we can find an objectively better state than what is currently in the game.

Any feedback and opinions about engagement ranges, success rates, differentiation with FoV (optics), etc. are of course welcome!

A trivia fact, me (infantry) against a sniper in 700 m face to face, i shoot against him don't injure him, he just go prone and don't shoot me down. Same thing sniper against sniper, one hit i`m down. ( hit the floor then hear the shot). Dont see them use Rangefinder to know our actual distance like we human do, if they dont use it maybe trial and error shots will suit best, 1 shoot and kill looks to perfect. If the scope was a PSO-1 it was plausible but is a mil-dot scope or they use something like this: http://www.mil-dot.com/media/1091/mildot_diagram.gif

AI don't rotate to the source of the shoot, try to locate visual the enemy, IR beam don't exposes us.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Five_Seven5-7

[chortles 263]

Awesome.

In simple terms, it sounds like units when surrounded/under-fire will have a weapon sway/recoil penalty, thus rewarding those units that do not get outmaneuvered.

Compared to the infamous VBS3 suppression trailer from a year-and-a-week ago, it sounds like "suppression as a byproduct of engaging point targets" and not VBS3's "designated suppression of a specific area"... in that video the Engage sub-menu had an additional (compared to Arma 3) "Designate area" command (more recently "Suppress area" according to a user manual) which brought up a menu from which one could draw an rectangle in 2D space (with a slider for depth) to determine where was to be be suppressed or observed, among other restrictions (i.e. duration based on a number of magazines or percentage of ammunition expended, or time elapsed).

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

HAhahah, thanks BIS. I'm making a mission for my squad to help them master pistols, and it's great how sometimes the AI go through some last stand behavior. It came to the point where i was playing whack-a-mole with a Greenback soldier before he finally got the lucky shot on me.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

If I recall correctly the AI had a similar penalty in Arma 2. A unit that was shot at would have it's aiming reduced significantly; almost to the point where periodic single shots very close to an AI could have it standing there almost indefinitely while trying to wait for the penalty to cease before firing.

Still it will be nice to be able to engage the AI with something even remotely resembling suppressive fire rather than the required kill shots we have at the moment.

[chortles 263]

Unfortunately as I noted above, the group command (and possibly the AI implementation) to to conscious attempt to cause suppressive fire -- instead of suppressive fire being a happy byproduct of attempted kill shots -- is what remains most lacking compared to VBS3's implementation.

[-Coulum- 35]

Unfortunately as I noted above, the group command (and possibly the AI implementation) to to conscious attempt to cause suppressive fire -- instead of suppressive fire being a happy byproduct of attempted kill shots -- is what remains most lacking compared to VBS3's implementation.

IMO what the devs seem to have planned is even better than VBS. I don't think that vbs ai are actually effected by near missed/ overwhelming fire are they? So having the ability to order ai to do it, isn't much more than for show. In coop you don't even need those orders because you are actually communicating with people and can tell them where to lay down fire. And with the ai accuracy decreasing when under fire, it actually means something to lay down fire on a position.

For single player the VBS3 command would be nice, yes. Guess my point is the command is worthless without the effects.

[danil-ch 165]

AI firing Smoke from a UGL, when they it out of HE rounds. Edited February 23, 2015 by Danil-ch

[2nd ranger 282]

Oh man, that one is really irritating. Frankly if BIS can't fix that, I'd rather they remove smoke rounds altogether. Units carry far too much smoke anyway. I usually play as the Team Leader and the first thing I do when I get in-game is drop all the smoke, chems and IR grenades, which usually totals eleven items. Last I checked, the FIA grenadier had something like 2 HE rounds and seven smokes, which is totally ridiculous, particularly for a guerrilla fighter. I don't want to be all "I KNOW A GUY...", but my Arma buddy is in the army, used to be a grenadier, and says he has never carried a smoke marker round in his life.

[Brisse 78]

2nd Ranger: It's just the same as everyone having tracers at the bottom of the magazine (every soldier knows this trick, but almost none use it IRL), and even some pistols have tracers (since when did any military forces have pistol calibers with tracers in stock?). The loadouts are not always realistic in this game. Yes, there's way too many smoke grenades in grenadier loadout.

[petek 62]

Oh man, that one is really irritating. Frankly if BIS can't fix that, I'd rather they remove smoke rounds altogether. Units carry far too much smoke anyway. I usually play as the Team Leader and the first thing I do when I get in-game is drop all the smoke, chems and IR grenades, which usually totals eleven items. Last I checked, the FIA grenadier had something like 2 HE rounds and seven smokes, which is totally ridiculous, particularly for a guerrilla fighter. I don't want to be all "I KNOW A GUY...", but my Arma buddy is in the army, used to be a grenadier, and says he has never carried a smoke marker round in his life.

I'm with you re the grenadier load outs - maybe one or 2 smokes at most makes sense for the TL for marking targets but other than that HE rounds!

[oukej 2910]

...Only really tested flybys, and it seems ai detect all supersonic flybys at the same proximity: 7-8 metres and less. Only the subsonic had a different suppressionradius, which was far less. Generally I think that the 7-8m is a fair medium radius for all weapons. However I would have expected that different claibre's would have a different suppressionradius's. ie. bigger the bullet the louder it is, further you can detect it, and larger suppression radius. This should also apply to bullet impacts - bigger the bullet, more visible and frightening impact it will make...

Redid some old tests last night (build 1.39.129.316) and the AI still have it's terminator uber spotting abilities capable to spot you hiding in vegetation with a blink of the eye after you fired a few shots (no silencer) and they entered combat mode if cm2 of you avatars head/body is in their LOS when they look in your general direction.

This is how it look from enemy POV when standing ~5 m in front of the grass/bush you are hiding in, the barrel of the gun is pointing strait to the prone snipers head.

https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Photos/A3%20-%20Bug%20Reports/03.png?_subject_uid=1949371&w=AADR-Y1H7ff9TWFZT3NxLC0bSAkfZZEu6JxoK_NHveROeg

This is on medium range ~100-200 m and it doesn't matter how well you try to conseal yourself (ghillie or not). Only way to avoid them detecting you is to hide so not a single cm2 of you head/body is in thier LOS (like behind a solid object or ridge) before they look in your direction.

It's much better on longer ranges ~300-400+ m and it takes them some time to move out in pairs and search for you to zero you in but as soon as they get closer they spot you if any part of your head/body are in their LOS even if prone in concealment and completely still in a ghillie.

Old repro mission can be DL here...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4b02p9fpow6k7ix/A3_AI_Terminators.zip?dl=0

Tested with

skillAI=0.5;

precisionAI=0.34999999;

/KC

Thanks for the feedback guys! Exactly what we're looking for.

So far the changes have only been in the detection distances, so feedback on the actual distances - whether the AI detects something too close or too far - is most welcome.

There's also been the recent fix which turns the AI back into deadly machines (actually looking for the target) once they hear some footsteps, shots or are hit.

...For single player the VBS3 command would be nice, yes. Guess my point is the command is worthless without the effects.

Exactly ;)

Also as you've mentioned that the AI takes some time to look in the targets direction, but once it does it's a if-you-see-the-flash situation. Behavior is the big thing. We'll try as much as we can to improve it.

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

A case in point for why there are very few worthwhile scenarios which include AI driving:

nJ_Z02mhK7s

I think that is a terrain issue with the path nodes or whatever the system is. Frequently at intersections, the AI will veer to one side. If there is a wall (common in urban areas) or an object, look out. The AI should still have some scripted solution that if there is an object/wall segment between it and the node it is trying to move to, then look for the next node along its waypoint direction.

The stuff in the above video is all too common.

IMO there should be a cluster of nodes in the center of each intersection, for each intersecting road to use.

[chortles 263]

For single player the VBS3 command would be nice, yes. Guess my point is the command is worthless without the effects.

Exactly ;)

On the other hand, without the command you can't "consciously" invoke the effects the way that you can with players, though the features were more than just the initial command or even the drawing of the area (via 2D rectangle and depth slider) but also the "suppress until" conditions.

The video included a "Observe" button for the "Suppress area" dialog which allowed the commanded AI to hold off on engaging until an enemy entered the drawn area and the AI could track/engage enemies who left the area that was being suppressed, but I'm trying to remember whether that latter specific capability that's in A3 and how much the "scan direction"/"watch horizon" commands can substitute for the "Observe" button.

[SaOk 112]

AI-teammates have big issues to find their way into vehicle, especially in urban enviroment.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=22853

[enex 11]

Empty truck, myself and 2 subordinate soldiers in Kavala.

Problem happens when truck is close to the houses.In that case they traverse

into buildings, usually to a second floor.

No mods.Poster above got point.