AI Discussion (dev branch)

[cosmic10r 2331]

Quick query.

Based on some of GOMs results I got back onto my quest for the perfect settings. Been building a test mission to tweak accuracy etc.

What would you guys consider a fair hit rate for a mid level unit (trained but not spec ops) at 100m, standing with a carbine?

Single shot but in fairly rapid succession so not completely restabalizing gun b4 each shot.

[domokun 515]

Would it be possible to get more stuff for AI suppression? Stuff like a command to adjust how much it affects the AI, how much fire it requires to take them upto maximum suppression and the like. 

Do grenades suppress AI?

Also is there a tutorial which explains the concept, use, extent and tactics of suppressive fire?

[Grumpy Old Man 3546]

Quick query.

Based on some of GOMs results I got back onto my quest for the perfect settings. Been building a test mission to tweak accuracy etc.

What would you guys consider a fair hit rate for a mid level unit (trained but not spec ops) at 100m, standing with a carbine?

Single shot but in fairly rapid succession so not completely restabalizing gun b4 each shot.

 

I'm running these settings, didn't test them with my new functions, it just feels like fighting trained units that aren't too good,

basically a "Pakistan army trained by US military" setting.

Using gauß distribution for a healthy spread.

_unit setskill 0.3;
_unit setUnitAbility 0.3;
_unit setskill ["aimingAccuracy", random [0.1,0.2,0.3]];
_unit setskill ["aimingShake", random [0.4,0.6,0.8]];
_unit setskill ["aimingSpeed", random [0.01,0.1,0.3]];
_unit setskill ["spotDistance", random [0.3,0.5,0.7]];
_unit setskill ["spotTime", random [0.5,0.7,0.9]];
_unit setskill ["commanding", random [0.8,1,1.2]];
_unit setskill ["courage", random [0.4,0.6,0.8]];
_unit setskill ["general", random [0.1,0.3,0.5]];
_unit setskill ["reloadSpeed", random [0.01,0.1,0.3]];

As to hit rate I'd say anything around 70-80% for a standing man sized target at 100m standing up with iron sights seems to be fair.

 

 

Cheers

[cosmic10r 2331]

Here is what I am seeing with 0.3,0.2,0.1 accuracy settings.

 

The big thing I am trying to accomplish is visualizing the accuracy and groupings.

I am not necessarily wanting to end up with perfect realism but engaging gameplay where its not laser accurate but you pay for tactical mistakes.

 

This is just a control test to see groupings and hit percentage by Accuracy setting.

AI set to 0.5 in the two sliders in difficulty menu and 50% in eden slider.

 

[Grumpy Old Man 3546]

Very interesting, need to test some myself.

I usually run my missions with a HandleDamage EH that reduces damage from arms and legs to 30% on top of the setSkill array,

gives for nice prolonged firefights. 2x3 rifle squads can engage each other for roughly 8-10 minutes without feeling too staged.

You can basically shrug off the occasional grazing shot but will regret running across an open field while under fire.

 

Cheers

[cosmic10r 2331]

Very interesting, need to test some myself.

I usually run my missions with a HandleDamage EH that reduces damage from arms and legs to 30% on top of the setSkill array,

gives for nice prolonged firefights. 2x3 rifle squads can engage each other for roughly 8-10 minutes without feeling too staged.

You can basically shrug off the occasional grazing shot but will regret running across an open field while under fire.

 

Cheers

 

 

That is an excellent idea and mod worthy.

 

Here is some of the data but remember it is slightly skewed due to the event handler firing sometimes twice or more for the odd hit here and there. So if anything the percentages are a little high..

 

Ai Accuracy

 

Sliders in Diff menu .50 and .50

Ai set to 50% in Eden

Unit - Csat Viper Team Leader

 

Distance --  Accuracy Setting

\/                 \/              \/               \/

 

                  0.3           0.2            0.1

 

 

100m      125%       89%        40%

 

 

200m      75%         45%         16%             

 

 

300m      41%         20%          9%

 

 

CSAT Sniper with default sniper rifle

Had to switch as unit with 6.5 would not fire at target at 400m

 

400m      73%         45%          20%

 

                                

500m      69%         35%          15%

 

 

600m      40%         25%          14%

 

 

 

one thing bugging me though is this type of bullet drop for a .50 cal. Its losing nearly 100% of its height in the last 20m or so.

My .300WM shoots bullets straight in with less bullet drop then that over 700m. 

This pic is the CSAT 50 cal sniper rifle at 600m. The last bit of bullet drop looks like something fired from a UGL.

 

 

[klamacz 448]

Would it be possible to get more stuff for AI suppression? Stuff like a command to adjust how much it affects the AI, how much fire it requires to take them upto maximum suppression and the like. 

 

Yes, one can inherit from Suppression Component and change its values. You need to create new AIBrainType or alter default one.

Example here, I tried to comment it as much

// global config class to store AIBrainTypes
class CfgBrains
{
  // default brains, only soldier has components by default
  class DefaultSoldierBrain
  {
	class Components
	{
		class AIBrainSuppressionComponent;
	};
  };
  class DefaultCivilianBrain;
  class DefaultAnimalBrain;
  // new soldier brain, inheriting from default
  class MyNewSoldierBrain : DefaultSoldierBrain
  {
    //class Components; 
    class Components : Components
    {	  
    // override default component
      class AIBrainSuppressionComponent : AIBrainSuppressionComponent
      {
	    // maximum level of suppression
		maxSuppression = 1.0;
		// decrease time from max level, worst for skill 0, best for skill 1
		worstDecreaseTime = 20.0;
		bestDecreaseTime = 0.1;
		// default suppression range, if not provided by ammo type
		SuppressionRange = 1.0;
		// weights of different danger causes
		CauseHitWeight = 0.5;
		CauseExplosionWeight = 0.15;
		CauseBulletCloseWeight = 1.00; // default 0.15
		// threshold to change behavior (use smoke grenades for example)
		SuppressionThreshold = 0.7;
      };
    };
  };
};

[klamacz 448]

Second thing, before I forget, in diagnostic exe, you can now use

AISkill, AIAiming, AIBrain, AIDynamicError, AISuppression diag modes

[x3kj 1247]

added so the wiki doesnt forget either

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_3_Diagnostics_Exe

[klamacz 448]

added so the wiki doesnt forget either

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_3_Diagnostics_Exe

 

Thanks a lot :) Best community ever.

 

Short description:

AIAiming - shows vectors (lines) of AI aiming at known target

AIBrain - general informations about AI brain, combat mode and fsm state

AIDynamicError - shows value of dynamically calculated AI aiming error

AISkill - shows value of skill, plus global coefficients, as set by difficulty mode

AISuppression - shows value of suppression 

[cosmic10r 2331]

Thabks for pointing that out guys. Will be handy!

[Vasily.B 529]

Please, fix the chopper behavior. They fly where i asked for CAS heli, and after killing few guys they just stand there. There must be some better way of handling this. I need to make all choppers undestructable beacuse of this bug. Try my mission, you gonna meet bug after calling both Hinds into the city.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=738221602

[oukej 2911]

If you're creating repro missions ideally just do it as simple as possible, on Stratis or VR, using minimum units. Only the stuff which is necessary for the reproduction. Also make sure you're running a pure vanilla game* otherwise we won't be able to check your mission. Then just pack the mission folder created by the editor (don't .pbo it) and share it with us.

(*Unless you're an actual author of the modded content and you need help with it - but then you should report it in the editing section on our forums.)

[Vasily.B 529]

If you're creating repro missions ideally just do it as simple as possible, on Stratis or VR, using minimum units. Only the stuff which is necessary for the reproduction. Also make sure you're running a pure vanilla game* otherwise we won't be able to check your mission. Then just pack the mission folder created by the editor (don't .pbo it) and share it with us.

(*Unless you're an actual author of the modded content and you need help with it - but then you should report it in the editing section on our forums.)

Like this ?

:P

[madrussian 347]

Noticed a small AI problem:

disableAI "AUTOCOMBAT" works great for fighting side units (West, East, and Resistance), but does not work on Civilian side units.  Seems the civilian FSM(s) don’t account for "AUTOCOMBAT" like the fighting side FSMs do.

 

Steps to repeat:

1. Make two groups, one with 3-4 west units, the other with 3-4 civilian units.
2. Set all units to disableAI "AUTOCOMBAT".
3. Monitor behavior for both groups (via behavior command), observing it is currently AWARE for both (correct per default value).
4. Shoot one unit from each group.
5. Observe the west group remains AWARE, but civilian group goes into COMBAT.

[Observed in 1.62.137494]

 

(Note – Even if you start fresh and join the Civ guys to a new empty West group, then apply disableAI “AUTOCOMBATâ€, they still don’t obey “AUTOCOMBAT†setting.  Based on this, seems FSM related.)

 

[mickeymen 324]

Hi BIS  ;)

One AI-problem, that prevents player from the time of 2013.

In the majority cases, the subordinate AI not able to change its stance, when he located on snap-positions, at the buildings, at walls, fences etc. This is issue from times of release of Arma3. BI please heal this issue, finally. 

 

Detais:

When a player-commander give command to your subordinated AI to use snap-position, this AI stops at these points. But on this position, this subordinate AI always will use only the initial body stance. In the overwhelming cases, he will not be able to change its stance! 

On the any snap-position, subordinate AI can be even rotated back to the enemy under enemy fire!  In this cases, I'm trying to save the life of this AI and do order "prone" or "crouch", but in the majority cases (90%!) this AI,does will not execute player order.

It may not seem like a significant problem, however, this item is very bad consequences for each AI in the squad of player:

 

1) This subordinate AI can be easy to killed, even with first enemy contact. 

2) He never lives long time on this snap-point, because he can't bend down.

3) This AI is not able to shoot more accurately from crouch/prone positions, on this snap-point, thus, this fighter is less effective.

 

In 100 percent of cases, the AI cannot execute order to change his satance in the middle of objects (snap-positions), but sometimes this can happen, also on the corners of buildings/objects. On the corners, the subordinate AI sometimes can change his stance(probability 50/50), but it is not stable and requires also attention. Please fix this, AI should stably follow all orders from the actions menu, while located on any snap-positions.

 

[geotrooper 12]

most of newbies like me have a lot of problem, trouble and obstacles with AI "behavior" 

the AI is extremely stupid and idiot since operation flashpoint.. I wonder why you never thought about fixing it. 

we, players, have to add several non official mods like "Asr AI" and ect. for making the ai behavior "normal" but they stay the same stupid as they were.. 

AI can't drive,it's horrible when you set AI in ANY KIND OF VEHICLE. DOES NOT MATTER WHAT KIND OF WAYPOINT YOU GIVE, THEY GET JAMMED EVERYTIME, EVERYWHERE. AI can't approach its waypoint. if you want to give a waypoint, you have to include millions of scripts and unofficial mods which causes a lot of unexpected errors, FPS drop, lags and even game crash almost constantly.. 

mission making takes a lot of effort, time, neurological resources and skills, I understand, but mission making should be enough from ARMA instead of adding a lot of non-official things which causes game total crash. 

instead of adding ridiculous, stupid mods like "shinny spaceship" and ect, you MUST BE fixing the AI BEHAVIOR. I hate to play with official arma3 mods because it's horrible and I will NEVER play arma3 with its official units because they are total unrealistic and stupid. so, we, players HAVE TO DOWNLOAD A LOT OF UNOFFICIAL MODS which are horribly suitable for arma3. 

please fix it and give more time and effort for making the AI better and when I give waypoint "seek and destroy" I want them to find the enemy and destroy instead of getting jammed in the middle of the waypoint and saying stupid commands in radio like "dear commander where are you?" 

thanks.

[Variable 322]

Why was the change for the AI to get into the FFV positions before critical crew seats? I don't see the point in that since in most cases you want them to man the other crew seats (such as gunner and driver) when you take the commander seat (or the other way around).

[KeyCat 131]

 

 

most of newbies like me have a lot of problem, trouble and obstacles with AI "behavior" 

the AI is extremely stupid and idiot since operation flashpoint.. I wonder why you never thought about fixing it. 

we, players, have to add several non official mods like "Asr AI" and ect. for making the ai behavior "normal" but they stay the same stupid as they were........

 

Don't want to sound like an a**hole but have you actually read this thread as well as the daily change logs posted by the dev's?

 

I agree with you that there are room for improvements - and there will always be - but jumping in here with your attitude is just rude! I and other can tell you that there's been lots of improvements to the AI since A3 beta release and the dev's are working on it continuously.

 

If you fail to to recognize the AI improvements made over the last 3+ years I suggest you read thru this thread first and then read thru the 840+ of daily posts in the change log thread.

 

/KC

[geotrooper 12]

Don't want to sound like an a**hole but have you actually read this thread as well as the daily change logs posted by the dev's?

 

I agree with you that there are room for improvements - and there will always be - but jumping in here with your attitude is just rude! I and other can tell you that there's been lots of improvements to the AI since A3 beta release and the dev's are working on it continuously.

 

If you fail to to recognize the AI improvements made over the last 3+ years I suggest you read thru this thread first and then read thru the 840+ of daily posts in the change log thread.

 

/KC

thanks for your replay, you didn't sound like an @$%le at all :) 

well.. I know what you mean, I see, I read that they're trying, they write that they're trying and changing, but it never had any serious effect on gameplay unfortunately. I play arma series since 2011. I remember how "horrible" ArmA2 was and how much time did it take to turn into a great game for its time. I know neither it's easy to just push a button and fix these problems about what I wrote, but we players would like to see more effort for AI fixing instead of just funny "units" 

and when I say "we, players" I mean A LOT which means A LOT OF MONEY as well.. 

if you play for a long time, you'd know that these problems are coming since OPF and nor arma2 was perfect with that. 

[KeyCat 131]

Thanks a lot :) Best community ever.

 

Short description:

AIAiming - shows vectors (lines) of AI aiming at known target

AIBrain - general informations about AI brain, combat mode and fsm state

AIDynamicError - shows value of dynamically calculated AI aiming error

AISkill - shows value of skill, plus global coefficients, as set by difficulty mode

AISuppression - shows value of suppression 

 

I'm not able to be on dev branch as well as stable due to my Internet connection but these commands sounds awesome for AI observations!

 

/KC

[inlesco 233]

thanks for your replay, you didn't sound like an @$%le at all :) 

well.. I know what you mean, I see, I read that they're trying, they write that they're trying and changing, but it never had any serious effect on gameplay unfortunately. I play arma series since 2011. I remember how "horrible" ArmA2 was and how much time did it take to turn into a great game for its time. I know neither it's easy to just push a button and fix these problems about what I wrote, but we players would like to see more effort for AI fixing instead of just funny "units" 

and when I say "we, players" I mean A LOT which means A LOT OF MONEY as well.. 

if you play for a long time, you'd know that these problems are coming since OPF and nor arma2 was perfect with that. 

It's not as easy as it appears to be to make a realistic and flexible (also, configurable by the player's desires, etc.) AI. BIS is way ahead of the current AI status in games industry right now.

There's no AI system as advanced as Arma's right now and it looks like A3 will be a sole leader in this regard for a long time.

Why? Because most devs don't even bother to address a realistic AI. You can count the devs that [definitely] care about this on your fingers (we're talking large-scale open world games here).

[angel24marin 34]

Why people think that a 3D artist know about programming AI and for that reason, if he isn't doing 3D models, AI programming will be better?

[Vasily.B 529]

Why was the change for the AI to get into the FFV positions before critical crew seats? I don't see the point in that since in most cases you want them to man the other crew seats (such as gunner and driver) when you take the commander seat (or the other way around).

I'm also wondering about it. If we are in FFV position topic - player sitting in FFV cannot order vehicle by AWSD - i reported that 2 months ago.

[Vasily.B 529]

It's not as easy as it appears to be to make a realistic and flexible (also, configurable by the player's desires, etc.) AI. BIS is way ahead of the current AI status in games industry right now.

There's no AI system as advanced as Arma's right now and it looks like A3 will be a sole leader in this regard for a long time.

Why? Because most devs don't even bother to address a realistic AI. You can count the devs that [definitely] care about this on your fingers (we're talking large-scale open world games here).

We all know BIS have monopol on this game type. But its not excuse why there is so much not fixed, simplest features for ai and actionmenu for years, even after so much tips step-by-step from players (testers).

- Ai still have problem with auto healing

- AI still have problem with rearming (i created ticket on FT with steps how it should work, its possible, but they need to WANT to do it)

- AI still disembarking vehicle beacuse of track damage.

There is VERY simple scripts for all of those, i wonder why BIS havent applied it yet. Players cannot do this on every mission, specially downloaded from WS, when you havent console available, and repacking mission just for play it and finish (someone work) isnt good experience in gaming, its more "fixing the beta", than playing.

Stance position when AI is behind the cover was reported on old FT by me 2+ years ago.

I know they are fixing a lot, but again, most serious things arent touched. And those things (bugs) break gameplay the most. Same for "File" formation, where AI squad should keep behind me, they are going street next to this, where i am, and die beacuse enemy just waiting for them. Everything beacuse they dont keep formation. This all bugs together is bottlenect in arma series since OFP, and to be honest, fixing them instead releasing apex would be more satisfiing for me.

PS: sorry for double post.