AI Discussion (dev branch)

[mad_cheese 593]

Is it the same when you split a group into teams, ie 'team red', 'team blue' and so on?

 

No, that can be done with scripting as well. But that's my point, it's hard to see the pattern in what's allowed and prohibited. 

 

have you guys switched your squad into "Staggered Column?"  It makes them much more compliant, even in Danger.  

 

That's true, they also perform better staying in formation even when not in danger mode. 'File' also works great.

[gatordev 219]

That's true, they also perform better staying in formation even when not in danger mode. 'File' also works great.

 

I knew there was another one, but couldn't remember what it was.  I'll have to remember that.  To date, my standard button-pushing once a mission loads is "`-8-9" and then set "Stealth" or "Danger" as needed. 

 

The thing that I still struggle with and haven't found a complete workaround for is when AI switches to "Open Fire" on their own.  It drives me crazy.  And it happens sometimes when we're not even taking fire yet.  There's just an enemy inside some "magical" range.  Maddening. 

[nkenny 1057]

While the continious tweaks to AI behavior--Seven Hells, tweaks doesn't seem to cover it. Lets say good work instead-- is very welcome. It seems to me that the greatest challenges to the current AI interaction and behavior are questions of (i) immediacy and (ii)feedback.

 

(i)Immediacy in response to human commands. Which would be a boon to both ZEUS scenarios and player led AI squads. (ii) Feedback in terms of wounding and suppression.  The current AI interaction suffers when the underlaying, often rather advanced, behavior becomes invisible to the player. The narrative, squad A is suppressed-- press forward-- is inaccessible. Instead the AI appears to, stupidly, to hold fire or be rendered inactive. A solution of narration, through obvious animations and/or voice feedback is necessary to make AI behavior evident to a observing player.

 

Changes along these lines would benefit gameplay tremendously. Having responsive AI that doesn't appear to second guess my (hopefully superior human intelligence) not only promotes tactical utility, but permits the creation of responsive and challenging ZEUS based scenarios. Or even facilitating strategy-game like interaction with the AI. (A side goal I believe with ZEUS).  Likewise by improving the feedback of both enemy and friendly AI forces, the simulation and narrative taletelling potential of the game is greatly enhanced. Supression would cease to be the hidden hand of firefight economics, and instead become an integral, entertaining, and beyond all, tactical aspect of the game.

In other words. (i) A way to make the AI move, even whilst receiving fire. (ii) Making AI suppression obvious and entertaining.  For fundamentally and sound changes to gameplay.

k

[mad_cheese 593]

The thing that I still struggle with and haven't found a complete workaround for is when AI switches to "Open Fire" on their own.  It drives me crazy.  And it happens sometimes when we're not even taking fire yet.  There's just an enemy inside some "magical" range.  Maddening.

It's the AI's ability to pick targets. I am not 100% sure yet, but I assume that if the enemy is aware of you, your unit will sense that and engage. However it works, the whole thing can actually be useful - if you have a choice. If the game gives you option a: [at your AI-discretion] and option b: [only on my command] - then it falls right into place. 

_unit disableAI "AUTOTARGET";

That's all it takes. This is not the place for advertizement but there's a mod that let's you do this, caugh   :ph34r:

Now if we had the same access for behavio(u)r, or even better a "combat" behavior so nice you don't want to override it - I'd say it's time we have a toast.

[krycek 349]

The AI is dumber than rocks with unguided missiles.My AI pilots are on full skill and I had to gimp that Ifrit to 0 skill.The chopper had to use most of it's arsenal(if you notice only 5 missiles left from 24) to disable a stationary target in open field.I don't expect the laser accuracy of dedicated gunships with guided missiles,but AI pilots on full skill should do better than that.If that Ifrit was even at 50% skill it would have blew us out of the sky in seconds.

The situation becomes even worse(not even usable) if the target is moving around even with slow speed.In this case the AI chopper will just pass above the target making long detours firing the occasional rocket(of course missing) while the target usually blow us to pieces.

Compared to Arma2 I noticed they are indeed much better with the miniguns especially on infantry.

[msy 22]

the latest dev branch again make the showcase Combined Arms more difficult because BIS always nerf player but AI isn't affected by this weapon sway, stamina, bla bla bla.

Now AI can still rush and stand up to head shot you 300m away with an ACO scope!

[msy 22]

When AI is hit he can still quickly re-aim at you and fire. Even though maybe he suffers the weapon sway he doesn't have to waite for the weapon being steady then to fire.

[old_painless 182]

the latest dev branch again make the showcase Combined Arms more difficult because BIS always nerf player but AI isn't affected by this weapon sway, stamina, bla bla bla.

Now AI can still rush and stand up to head shot you 300m away with an ACO scope!

Are you sure, that would be seriously sad if the AI is unaffected by all the stamina stuff ?!

 

-OP

[msy 22]

Are you sure, that would be seriously sad if the AI is unaffected by all the stamina stuff ?!

-OP

i correct myself, it should be that: AI may be affected by weapon sway and stamina, but these features nerf player more than AI. BIS want the game pace more slow-- more tactical, but BIS never teach AI how to play with player tactically. The AI is part of computer program, If you don't teach them to aim at target steadily then fire, they will be cheating, once they are aiming at you, they don't care the sway, they can lock on you in 1/1000 second and fire if the aiming point just pass you. Even if AI‘s arms are hurt they can still head shot you 300m away with an ACO scope. The program for AI must be that once the aiming point pass the target's head (AI can caculate the ballistic curve by your PC), fire without any waite and hesitation.

Fight AI face to face even 300m away is still suicidal behavior.

[froggyluv 2136]

Guys part of the problem with this type of discussion are the varying degrees of difficulty settings. The difference between playing recruit, regular, veteran, expert is pretty vast and needs to be stated. If you fiddle around enough with the AI sub skills, you can get some pretty good results. I find setting the AI accuracy to extremely low numbers, better resembles an exciting close quarter battle firefight.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Guys part of the problem with this type of discussion are the varying degrees of difficulty settings. The difference between playing recruit, regular, veteran, expert is pretty vast and needs to be stated. If you fiddle around enough with the AI sub skills, you can get some pretty good results. I find setting the AI accuracy to extremely low numbers, better resembles an exciting close quarter battle firefight.

I just miss the friendly/enemy setting so much. Usually you're so much outnumbered that own AI needs to be terminators and enemy needs to be kids who can barely shoot. Lowering the AI accuracy and your own teammates are useless. Then it's just "Me vs the whole world" situation. That's what I've felt with the official missions.

[mad_cheese 593]

Guys part of the problem with this type of discussion are the varying degrees of difficulty settings. The difference between playing recruit, regular, veteran, expert is pretty vast and needs to be stated. If you fiddle around enough with the AI sub skills, you can get some pretty good results. I find setting the AI accuracy to extremely low numbers, better resembles an exciting close quarter battle firefight.

I couldn't agree more. This is also the point where I think we have to admit that somewhere in us, there's a gamer. At least for me, I do absolutely want my squad AI to be killer robots, I never really see them do anything crazy because I'm concentrated on the enemy. But for the enemy, I think it's totally acceptable to have skills from 0.05 to 0.3 or whatever… Have them miss you with bullets and 203's, it's immersive and pressurizing unless you actually put the skill too low. Because you do want them to hit some things eventually. 

 

This is one of the topics where I really don't want to be in BIS' shoes because they give us everything we need and we can't handle it. We have a choice, it's question of mission design and many creators seem to overlook the impact of skill balance. You can fix it with the debug console or unpack/edit a mission. Hassle, yes, but we chose this game and I never have a single round of SP where I don't use the console.

 

You can also 'read' the skills in game. You will realize that someone in there is a good shot and prioritize him. I think that's very very awesome actually.

[msy 22]

I couldn't agree more. This is also the point where I think we have to admit that somewhere in us. At least for me, I do absolutely want my squad AI to be killer robots, I never really see them do anything crazy because I'm concentrated on the enemy. But for the enemy, I think it's totally acceptable to have skills from 0.05 to 0.3 or whatever… Have them miss you with bullets and 203's, it's immersive and pressurizing unless you actually put the skill too low. Because you do want them to hit some things eventually. 

 

This is one of the topics where I really don't want to be in BIS' shoes because they give us everything we need and we can't handle it. We have a choice, it's question of mission design and many creators seem to overlook the impact of skill balance. You can fix it with the debug console or unpack/edit a mission. Hassle, yes, but we chose this game and I never have a single round of SP where I don't use the console.

 

You can also 'read' the skills in game. You will realize that someone in there is a good shot and prioritize him. I think that's very very awesome actually.

what I complain is more about the unreasonable part of AI design.

It can't not be done by just change the difficulty. For example, AI don't know when to rush (while you want them pass through a streat more quickly), when to retreat (while you want them out of engage), when to get cover, what is hit and run tactic, etc.. Also, AI can still detect what your stance is after you run behind a cover like wall or door. 

Those above can not be solved by just change some options.

[krycek 349]

I question to this day who had the "smart" idea to unify AI side settings under one option in A3 or in what parallel universe uniformity in AI skill between OPFOR and BLUEFOR is a good idea.

It's not like this game is made for derps that can't handle multiple options.So why,what exactly has this achieved besides cutting the flexibility between different factions!?

[mad_cheese 593]

what I complain is more about the unreasonable part of AI design.

It can't not be done by just change the difficulty. For example, AI don't know when to rush (while you want them pass through a streat more quickly), when to retreat (while you want them out of engage), when to get cover, what is hit and run tactic, etc.. Also, AI can still detect what your stance is after you run behind a cover like wall or door. 

Those above can not be solved by just change some options.

I agree the actual 'vanilla behavior' could use some HEAVY maintenance using a lot of new functionality that simply has not existed before. I am startled sometimes how unexplored the territory of 'AI-routines' is compared to the seemingly endless potential that the game has these days. A mountain of great functionality seems to have found it's way into the game, but it has not really been implemented in a lot of core features (just a theory not a fact at all), FSM's and the likes. I wish BIS could find the time for these "little" things, AI behavior is quite the niche but I guess it does affect a big part of the community as coop is actually very much alive.

[inlesco 233]

I agree the actual 'vanilla behavior' could use some HEAVY maintenance using a lot of new functionality that simply has not existed before. I am startled sometimes how unexplored the territory of 'AI-routines' is compared to the seemingly endless potential that the game has these days. A mountain of great functionality seems to have found it's way into the game, but it has not really been implemented in a lot of core features (just a theory not a fact at all), FSM's and the likes. I wish BIS could find the time for these "little" things, AI behavior is quite the niche but I guess it does affect a big part of the community as coop is actually very much alive.

Regarding coop being labeled 'alive', I was once wondering are there any statistics collected on the gamemode playability in %. Lots of players enjoy KOTH, which is a mix of TVT and strategy.

However, when referring to coop, IMO it's important to differentiate between small and large scale coop. The larger the scale, the more you functionality you have to 'simplify' or get rid of for the AI.

I also wonder if BIS ever had an idea of implementing scalable AI routines and coroutines for different types of missions and their circumstances.

Lots of unexplored areas right here and the potential is infinite, but resources, both human and not, aren't. That's the problem.

 

AI is pretty much the most underrated area in the recent games. I see A3's AI by far the most complex and detailed in the entire industry. Dunno what do the others think.

 

Don't forget about STALKER series - they've had some interesting combat techniques for the AI, though, the A Life system they've been marketing is complete bollocks.

[chortles 263]

Usually you're so much outnumbered that own AI needs to be terminators and enemy needs to be kids who can barely shoot.

"Usually" suggests a failure on the part of the mission makers... whereas the reason for my own "Me vs the whole world" feeling in official missions came more from the feedback and immediacy issues that nkenny described -- if my own control of my avatar is supposed to be a measure of my skill (in video game shooting and movement) then I would think that unit commanding should test my "real-time tactics game" capability, and somewhere in between the user interface and subordinate AI units' reactions the overall effect just doesn't come off that way.

[msy 22]

WHEN can friendly AI soldier learn to avoid of coming car/tank?

I have played Combined Arms showcase many times, and in many times the APC often kills my teamleader by car accident.

[Vasily.B 529]

WHEN can friendly AI soldier learn to avoid of coming car/tank?

I have played Combined Arms showcase many times, and in many times the APC often kills my teamleader by car accident.

If i'm not mistaked Try Rydygier liability insurance addon

https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/175892-rydygiers-trivia-vault/

It will sovle most of the issue. For now i dont know if ACE designed that, or its by vanilla, all soldiers are not dying when vehicles drive on them but just lie on the ground and standing after while. But yeah, they hurts much.

[oukej 2911]

I'm sorry to say it's better not to expect expect scenes like this one to work safely with AI in A3. I'd say when creating a mission it's better to avoid having infantry and armor move at the same time close next to each other and avoid possible accidents.

[Gwynbleidd 28]

Can anyone tell me the numbers of AI skill and precision, for expert and normal difficulty preset?

[Vasily.B 529]

This is why this addon was made - Vehicles will still drive on friendlies, but making no damage. Can you take care of reversing please? I'm wating mostly for that....

[froggyluv 2136]

This is why this addon was made - Vehicles will still drive on friendlies, but making no damage. Can you take care of reversing please? I'm wating mostly for that....

 

 Think thats a fair tradeoff for gameplay reasons. Allow the ragdoll and stun such as from TPW's mod but then reset the health or at least dont let them die :P

[Variable 322]

Can anyone tell me the numbers of AI skill and precision, for expert and normal difficulty preset?

Check this post Gwyn.

[Gwynbleidd 28]

Nice find, thanks! Hopefully the values remain the same.