AI Discussion (dev branch)

[ruPal 143]

The rule is to not mix in mods into dev feedback. Is BI responsible of how the AI behaves in GL5? No, the developer of GL5 is who you should adress.

For sure, the AI could have some problems and you see it manifest in GL5 mod, but you/we can't know until you try without that mod. So if you try dev AI without any mods and find the same timid behavior, or something else which is not to your liking, then it's a good thing to report. But right now it's quite wrong for BI to change their AI so a mod that you uses will work better.

You are right. Some more testing gave me results on vanilla only - AI go prone too often and if attacked don't search attacker well. Most of them just go prone and scan horizont on 180 - 360.

[ruPal 143]

Vanilla 1.5:
Here is screenshot without any AI mod: http://i.imgur.com/8tWXHkJ.jpg
They moved 10m to player postition and then most of them went prone. 1-2 of them move 2 meters and go prone again. They move too slow and go prone too often. So even without AI mods the problem is the same. AI don't want to move towards the target, sometimes they move 1/3 of path but too slow with a lot of prone positions. And now I don't know how to solve this, cause mods... don't work anymore.

Here is comparison videos (not best one's, made them in a hurry).
1.5 + GL5:
https://mega.nz/#!eYkh1IYR!QcVUmYbHwrtwzfgoe2rqitHpClhG_5xWl_PDLYCezJw

You see that in 1.5 AI actively moves towards the enemy some of them tries to flank them. Not best one, because AI move too tight on video. In most cases they spread in two groups and moves to player from several directions.

1.52+GL5:

https://mega.nz/#!fAsgGJxY!gAJjVmV9ayz6Sh1pEc8yAyjdWrSKlSc1Nq0lQrnJh5U
Most of AI moves backwards, 1-3 tries to  find player but on 2/3 of path they stops. They go prone very often in situation when they should move fast. Also they go prone and crawling. Most of them go backwards but when I tested in other situations they go prone too and most of the time they was in that postion.

1.52 without any AI mods:
https://mega.nz/#!aVtSEZZR!cH-cwPk_bzFldAn629teTa9fdhX_yyaeMhoVnKdK3Yg
AI go prone and do nothing to find a player.

[KeyCat 131]

Vanilla 1.5:

Here is screenshot without any AI mod: http://i.imgur.com/8tWXHkJ.jpg

They moved 10m to player postition and then most of them went prone. 1-2 of them move 2 meters and go prone again. They move too slow and go prone too often. So even without AI mods the problem is the same. AI don't want to move towards the target, sometimes they move 1/3 of path but too slow with a lot of prone positions. And now I don't know how to solve this, cause mods... don't work anymore.

 

I haven't done any testing on 1.52.xxx yet but maybe this new behavior is intentional and tries to address AI running into the fight without any fear for their life? I'm just guessing and not saying this is working as intended only devs knows.

 

As already said it's up to the mod/script makers to adapt to changed/new behaviors/features.

 

/KC

[ruPal 143]

I haven't done any testing on 1.52.xxx yet but maybe this new behavior is intentional and tries to address AI running into the fight without any fear for their life? I'm just guessing and not saying this is working as intended only devs knows.

 

As already said it's up to the mod/script makers to adapt to changed/new behaviors/features.

 

/KC

I gave you the results of testing and showed that AI is too timid like I said before. Just don't understand what I should do to show you the problem. Everything is in videos.

[KeyCat 131]

I hear you Kukus and I'm sure the devs appreciate all feedback they can get. I was just thinking out loud of a possible cause to the change.

 

/KC
 

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

AI Drivers seem to be less interested in following roads now than ever.

 

Hate to use strong language as I know people have spent long hours on this ... but at the moment (1.52), AI driving is truly <insert strong word here>.

[andersson 285]

AI driving is truly <diddly-bad-illy>.

[pd3 25]

 

"To simplify... most of the time it feels like one squad member killed and one single pixel of you are in LOS = instant knowledge of your position no matter how concealed you are."

This is also extremely annoying in CQB situations, the one-single-pixel rule applies where the ai can literally start firing at cover the second an impossibly discernible fragment of the player appears from around the side of it.

This issue is also innately tethered to the speed at which ai perceives and reacts to things (which needs to be toned down a bit IMO).

[oukej 2910]

Vanilla 1.5:

Here is screenshot without any AI mod: http://i.imgur.com/8tWXHkJ.jpg

They moved 10m to player postition and then most of them went prone. 1-2 of them move 2 meters and go prone again. They move too slow and go prone too often. So even without AI mods the problem is the same. AI don't want to move towards the target, sometimes they move 1/3 of path but too slow with a lot of prone positions. And now I don't know how to solve this, cause mods... don't work anymore.

Here is comparison videos (not best one's, made them in a hurry).

1.5 + GL5:

https://mega.nz/#!eYkh1IYR!QcVUmYbHwrtwzfgoe2rqitHpClhG_5xWl_PDLYCezJw

You see that in 1.5 AI actively moves towards the enemy some of them tries to flank them. Not best one, because AI move too tight on video. In most cases they spread in two groups and moves to player from several directions.

1.52+GL5:

https://mega.nz/#!fAsgGJxY!gAJjVmV9ayz6Sh1pEc8yAyjdWrSKlSc1Nq0lQrnJh5U

Most of AI moves backwards, 1-3 tries to  find player but on 2/3 of path they stops. They go prone very often in situation when they should move fast. Also they go prone and crawling. Most of them go backwards but when I tested in other situations they go prone too and most of the time they was in that postion.

1.52 without any AI mods:

https://mega.nz/#!aVtSEZZR!cH-cwPk_bzFldAn629teTa9fdhX_yyaeMhoVnKdK3Yg

AI go prone and do nothing to find a player.

So if I'm getting it right - nothing has changed in the Vanilla game, but the update may have screwed up something in GL5, right?

Will try to get in contact with the author to see if we can find some more details. Thank you for the info and sharing details!

Two points about the repros - I see you still use some mods - even if they are not labeled "AI", they can still alter the AI behavior a lot (by config properties of various weapons, vehicles, characters or even a different AI FSM assigned to a character class). Second - please use Youtube for sharing videos. Thanks a lot!

Contrary to the popular belief breaking mods isn't our favorite pastime when doing the game updates ;). Please, keep informing us if you notice that mod has got broken just because of the game update. Of course the best approach still is to contact the author of the mod and he or she then should get in touch with us and give us more details about what exact script or functionality got altered by the update.

[alky_lee 279]

I was taking cover behind a vehicle when an AI came running round the front of it. I'm sure I heard him say "Oh shit" before I took him out Rambo style with a Navid from 5 feet. It made me chuckle and almost put me off from opening fire. I think the AI is slowly becoming more realistic, except when they are in terminator mode. Keep up the good work. We want the AI to be perfect in all situations, if at all achievable please.

[pd3 25]

I was taking cover behind a vehicle when an AI came running round the front of it. I'm sure I heard him say "Oh shit" before I took him out Rambo style with a Navid from 5 feet. It made me chuckle and almost put me off from opening fire. I think the AI is slowly becoming more realistic, except when they are in terminator mode. Keep up the good work. We want the AI to be perfect in all situations, if at all achievable please.

The AI is pretty good when they are unaffected by the ridiculous stat buffs associated with being in "red" or "combat" mode whichever does it.

The AI would be great if a few key issues were redressed.

- peripheral vision is not as reliable as direct linear vision

- no more CIWS reaction times/speeds

- no more buffs to hearing/perception when in combat mode that give the AI psychic/echolocation powers when they perceive things in circumstances where it would be simply impossible for players to do so with any level of reliability.

It seems as if the more "pissed off" the AI gets when they can't find you, the more heightened their sensory powers seem to be, I've played around with single AI and it seems less-bad even despite the obvious gripes associated with "combat" mode.

However when you're in a situation where the AI is looking for you and you've killed multiples of their side, it seems as if it gets to a point where the game just "throws them a bone" and reveals you under circumstances where it just shouldn't be possible considering their reactions. This also really really screws the player in close quarter combat situations.

I've stood adjacent (out of sight) from doorways whilst the AI stood inside of it, and I took a slight step near the doorway, not exposing myself, and the AI fired in the direction of where I was through the wall. When you're pretty deep into a scenario and you know that the odds are stacked that ridiculously against you, it's kind of an enjoyment killer.

 

Given that AI had never even seen me, I can't replicate it under single AI circumstances for some reason, but this has happened multiple times now in scenarios using large number of AI be it involving doorways or corners of buildings where the player is masked, makes a movement, and the AI automatically knows where they are even though they haven't seen them.

I suspect the perceptive abilities of the AI are increased by a factor that makes all other modes they could be in seem badly skewed by comparison in certain conditions, and whatever those conditions are, those buffs to said abilities need to be decreased, I would say easily by half or more.

[mad_cheese 593]

The AI is pretty good when they are unaffected by the ridiculous stat buffs associated with being in "red" or "combat" mode whichever does it.

 

@oukej, in earlier posts (this and this) you mentioned that this problem was identified within the behavior fsm but it would take a while to address - I can't restrain myself, has there been any news by chance? 

[froggyluv 2136]

@oukej, in earlier posts (this and this) you mentioned that this problem was identified within the behavior fsm but it would take a while to address - I can't restrain myself, has there been any news by chance? 

 

 One sunny day, some 29,000,000 years from now -an alien race shall discover this 'arma AI code'.

 

 And they shall be consumed.

[klamacz 448]

@oukej, in earlier posts (this and this) you mentioned that this problem was identified within the behavior fsm but it would take a while to address - I can't restrain myself, has there been any news by chance? 

 

Work and fixes in those FSM's is planned, some progress has been made. I ask you for a bit more patience, there are good things coming to AI in near future ;)

[x3kj 1247]

good to hear :)

[ruPal 143]

there are good things coming to AI in near future ;)

Sound like a threat.

[tinter 186]

I just hope that we will some day get AI that can maneuver under fire. Setting up a proper hit and run attack is impossible at the moment, as the AI will not run, but keep firing at the target. The most success I've had with this is using disableAI for FSM and TARGET, but it seems to have problems on dedicated servers.

[cosmic10r 2331]

Work and fixes in those FSM's is planned, some progress has been made. I ask you for a bit more patience, there are good things coming to AI in near future ;)

 

Cryptic and tantalizing...

Just how I like it ;)

[mikey74 179]

Sounds great!!!!! Please tell me AI will find cover, and get low at the proper times in combat now! I am drooling to think of what an expert can do that I barely even touched the surface on. :D I look forward to the updates.

[mad_cheese 593]

Work and fixes in those FSM's is planned, some progress has been made. I ask you for a bit more patience, there are good things coming to AI in near future ;)

 

and that's why i have so much love for you people. 

[cosmic10r 2331]

This vid is about 3 mins and shows AI reaction to contact and ensuing behaviour

Waypoints are given to each side on opposite sides of the road so that they meet in the center and that road between the groups of buildings becomes the killzone

2 Groups east, 2 Groups west, 1 Recon Assault Group and 1 Marksmen group for each side to fairly match. (both groups from Marksmen DL

Vanilla 1.52 AI

 

Doing a little testing last night on an internal project...  hopefully the next iteration of FOA but as yet no decisions have been made

A couple of objectives

-NO LAYING DOWN in open ground... lol

-No getting stuck prone

-Good cover movement

-No walking down the middle of the road

-GET COVER ... lol

 

This one is a longer because the battle plays out in a different way... about 7 mins

notice at about 1:55 in the bottom left, AI dude... crawling backwards towards the bush for cover. I thought that was pretty cool. In any case... the smoke is annoying because it looks like all they did was  throw a cube of dry ice but try to ignore that lol

They don't seem to get stuck and do follow waypoints quite well as the final spot they stop at is pretty much the last waypoint location

 

[kremator 1065]

LOL @ 2:29 on that last video .... check the bottom left of the screen what a pile of crap !  Even the simplest of things can't be fixed!

 

And then the soldier shoots his teammate.   Sigh.

[cosmic10r 2331]

do you mean the building clipping??

Yeah I noticed that too... this is my standard testing area... and Ive not seen that before so I wonder if its related to the reported  AI can now see thru legacy objects from OA that seemed to come into 1.52

 

aside from that though did the behaviour seem more or less realistic?

the moving off the road and the movement from cover to cover?

[djotacon 190]

I read all the related problems with the GL5 but: 

 

GL5 status is... experimental.

 

If  the resources of BIS are focused avoid broke unfinished - and abandoned - mods that the owner of the mod has abandoned - GL5 has more 1 year -, we dont have a proper AI.. never.

 

With more deep changed are done within the AI code, more and more "old" AI mods will be broken.

 

 

If the mods creator isn't interested in maintain his own code the only solution is get another updated AI mod or wait to all the AI related problem will be fixed someday.

[ruPal 143]

It is true but main reason - AI is terrible in Arma 3. It is really bad. There are a lot of mods that make it much better and this fact confirms my suggestion (vanilla AI is terrible). Developers update AI but... it still terrible. We have several AI mods that make it better and modders have to update  them every new version. What I want from devs is to look through ALL the AI mods, understand the code and check their ideas and make AI better in vanilla.
Just to clear situation: we paid developers to maintain game and we didn't pay modders.
GL5 is not experimental. As you know Group Link has been developed since *drumroll* OFP. GL series is more than 10 years old. In Arma 3 it evolved in GL5.

It takes a lot of time to solve new problems, you have to make a lot of test builds and find solution in experimental way only because developers don't give much info about changes in game code. One day we will be in situation when we have no AI mods but terrible vanilla AI, it is just a matter of time. Think twice before make posts about better AI in every update.

cosmic10r, your videos are not Vanilla ones. You use at least Blastcore...