AI Discussion (dev branch)

[R3vo 2654]

oukej do you know about the issue where AI keep reporting known targets ?

Happens alot when helicopters are flying over the AO, squad mates keep reporting it over and over again, that's kinda annoying. Should I make a ticket and a video for that?

[Variable 322]

AI driver is still unable to reverse when ordered to (player as vehicle commander).

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=16717

This is clearly a regression bug that wasn't there before and was added down the line. It makes commanding an armored vehicle highly frustrating when we can't do a basic "hull down" tactic and general maneuvering a nightmare. It's been like that for almost two years now! Can we expect a fix?

And guys, please spare the "I drive myself" comments, it's really beside the point.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Variable

[ceeeb 147]

oukej do you know about the issue where AI keep reporting known targets ?

Happens alot when helicopters are flying over the AO, squad mates keep reporting it over and over again, that's kinda annoying. Should I make a ticket and a video for that?

It's been reported and acknowledged, so I guess BI are aware of it. It's an age old bug that's been around since OFP.

0017904: AI leader at guard waypoint will repeat attack command infinitely if his group is unable to attack the revealed target.

[h - 169]

I'm sorry I missed your question. The AI's spotting at night in NVGs gets worse if there's low ambient light (no moon, overcast weather). But you're right, that rain drops themselves don't change it. But also it's been only quite recently this has become fair for players.

Thanks for the reply.

I don't play MP so my experiences are limited to SP only so wasn't aware of that..

This obviously happens only when the lighting conditions and rain line-up enough so I guess if this would be fixed it's not exactly as easy as simply setting up spotting accuracy - rain type of thing... :p

[msy 22]

AI driver is still unable to reverse when ordered to (player as vehicle commander).

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=16717

This is clearly a regression bug that wasn't there before and was added down the line. It makes commanding an armored vehicle highly frustrating when we can't do a basic "hull down" tactic and general maneuvering a nightmare. It's been like that for almost two years now! Can we expect a fix?

And guys, please spare the "I drive myself" comments, it's really beside the point.

What's more is when AI drives the tank/IFV, while you order to stop, the vehicle can slide on the ground. However if you drive the vehicle it won't slide on the ground. I mean slide is a bug.

[das attorney 858]

Hi oukej,

Occasionally lone units get stuck (not on an object but stand still) and I see a lot of this in the rpt:

C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.6737
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.67725
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.66906
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.67768
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.67696
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.67737
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.64029
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.65453
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.61319
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.66132
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.65942
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.66834
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.6604
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.66152
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.55958
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.65089
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.65225
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.67208
C Alpha 1-2:1: moving in direct condition failed, dist 4.65829

Any idea what could be causing it?

[KeyCat 131]

Good stuff in today's build :ok:

Hopefully get a chance to test more coming weekend...

/KC

[oukej 2910]

AI driver is still unable to reverse...

Is it? I have no idea ;)

[f2k sel 164]

Mine seem to reverse now but don't seem to know the difference between left and right.

If after you tell them to reverse then have the, stop and turn left they turn right.

Sometimes it just turns a little to the right and then goes left but quite often it keeps turning right.

Other times is just seems to turn left and right on it's own for quite a while and when it does stop it seems to slide for a while as well.

When they are mixed up forward can become reverse as well, it seems that when you stop reversing commands aren't being rest to the correct direction of the vehicle.

No issue with cars.

Update : ---

Sometimes it gets really mixed up jumps some random distance.

Edited June 29, 2015 by F2k Sel

[msy 22]

Is it? I have no idea ;)

You can repro a slide bug like this:

1. order AI to move forward

2. order AI to stop.

3. in 3rd person's view you can see the tank slide forward.

4. Switch you to driver and try to move and stop, the tank can't slide.

I think SLIDE is a bug.

Edited June 29, 2015 by msy

[oukej 2910]

Occasionally lone units get stuck (not on an object but stand still) and I see a lot of this in the rpt:

Do you happen to have details about when this happens? After some command, in some behavior or ROE, in group? You said it's not on an object, so I guess we can rule out stuck in the cover, right?

---------- Post added at 20:33 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

Update : ---

Sometimes it gets really mixed up jumps some random distance.

Was this happening even prior to the fix? But otherwise yes, there are still some problems and it can be quite jerky at times. (especially when commanding in a rapid consecution) :/

[f2k sel 164]

I never noticed it before, yes it was jerky and still is but this is jumping 10-20 meters and almost flipping on flat ground.

[das attorney 858]

Do you happen to have details about when this happens? After some command, in some behavior or ROE, in group? You said it's not on an object, so I guess we can rule out stuck in the cover, right?

Correct yes, they don't get caught on cover. They just stop in the open. It tends to be lone units with following settings:

setRating to -50000 so they are sideEnemy.
_renegade setUnitPos "UP";

and their waypoints settings are:

_wp setWaypointBehaviour "COMBAT";
_wp setWaypointCombatMode "RED";
_wp setWaypointCompletionRadius 50;
_wp setWaypointSpeed "FULL";
_wp setWaypointStatements ["true",""];
_wp setWaypointType "SAD";

I should mention that I went into the config and changed the FSMDanger and formation to the following:

fsmDanger = "A3\characters_f\scripts\danger.fsm";
fsmFormation = "Formation";

The reason is that I wanted them to act like soldiers, not civilians.

I'll do some testing tonight and see if I can replicate reliably, or if I can also replicate for lone vanilla BLUFOR/OPFOR units.

[Variable 322]

Is it? I have no idea ;)

Will check immediately! :) thanks!

[otrebla_snake_ita 2]

Yes... this frustrates me too. And since the cover spot selection routine has an area of influence, more often than not, in order to prevent it altogether one must pick a position too far from the cover to be meaningful. If using it in building interiors it also presents itself too limiting.

I'm sorry I missed your question. The AI's spotting at night in NVGs gets worse if there's low ambient light (no moon, overcast weather). But you're right, that rain drops themselves don't change it. But also it's been only quite recently this has become fair for players.

---------- Post added at 22:55 ---------- Previous post was at 22:34 ----------

This is admittedly an unfortunate issue we won't be able to fix and we are truly sorry about it :( It would require readjustment of massive amount of objects on our already released maps. But to give you at least some hope - we'll make sure the new terrain is more optimized for the dynamic cover creation.

This is a pity :( I just hope the new terrain will have a better optimization about it! :)

Come on guys, I'm still waiting to completely relish this game in SP (I have no time to play with organized groups online, unluckily, I can do it just as a lone wolf :( )! :D

[oukej 2910]

I should mention that I went into the config and changed the FSMDanger and formation to the following:

fsmDanger = "A3\characters_f\scripts\danger.fsm";
fsmFormation = "Formation";

I'd expect this to be the cause, the "Formation" native FSM wasn't tailored for unarmed civilians (you have bounding overwatch there, when to reload, etc.).

[danil-ch 165]

AI keep using Grenade launchers against heavy vehicles

[oukej 2910]

AI keep using Grenade launchers against heavy vehicles

Yup, can confirm that. R3vo reported it already here.

(Also the tracks can be damaged by the grenades. It takes 2-3 good hits to disable the track.)

[das attorney 858]

I'd expect this to be the cause, the "Formation" native FSM wasn't tailored for unarmed civilians (you have bounding overwatch there, when to reload, etc.).

They've got guns hence being called _renegade (I should have mentioned that too) :)

Still checking into it anyway.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Das Attorney

[nkenny 1057]

In regards to grenade launchers vs hard targets. I think that the added explosions serves to not only populate the battlefield in interesting ways, but may help confuse the crew to the efforts of proper AT weapons. In short, I like it. Indeed I think a strong case could be made to see the AI use more projected HE against soft targets.

Specifically: (1) More active use of shoulder fired launchers versus slow moving helicopters and infantry. (2) The use of HE against garrisoned infantry units. The former can be experienced in modded games and definitely increase the tension of flying over enemy territory. Active projection of HE is effective and a highly visible indicator of danger and war, key aspects in establishing superiority on a battlefield scale. As to the latter, I believe that if the AI, and in particular vehicle crews, were more able to recognize infantry hiding in buildings, and dealt with them explosively, houses would become tactical terrain, rather than a blind spot in the AIs awareness. I can think of two chief arguments for such changes.

Players do it. Human players are willing to level buildings and risk missiles against slow moving helicopters. And anyone who has been on the receiving end knows that being targeted thusly is dangerous, and alters the battlefield in meaningful ways. That the AI does not simply means the AI fails to operate in the same environment that the players do, and while perfect human intelligence is beyond reach, these changes are very much within reach. Destructive, projected HE, is fairly realistic. One would need look no further than pictures from WW2, or more recently Syria, to attests to the awesome destructive might of modern military hardware. The principal forces of Arma3, CSAT and NATO, are conventional armies locked in war. While policing/coin actions, like Iraq or Afghanistan, do not permit wholesale destruction of civilian property, all out war operates along different rules. However that is besides the point, I am not suggesting a case where civilian buildings are being targeted willynilly, it would require enemy presence. Indeed I can think of few negative sides to such changes.

While it certainly isn't doctrine to fire AT weapons against helicopters, I submit that given the ranges and speeds, and capabilities of Arma3 weapons-- if the opportunity presented itself, the shot should be taken. A good hit is devastating, and the visual effect thrilling, and the projected HE has a firm suppressive quality. Again, that players do it is quite telling. Likewise one could note the danger of expending ammunition on non-traditional targets, thus leaving AI troops unable to defend themselves against armored targets. However both factions are saturated with AT/HE weapons, and very able to rearm and reequip. Isn't logistics a large part of modern war? I argue that the benefits outweigh the penalties-- the added battlefield control and exploitation of the tactical environment will pay dividends in both the short and long term. Indeed such changes may make the AI considerably more dangerous, houses almost deathtraps, but isn't this also the case against human adversaries? Modern war isn't nice. It is destructive and dangerous.

In summary: Having the AI fire shouldfired rockets against more types of targets, and recognizing that occupied and garrisoned buildings also are valid targets for HE, would be great changes for gameplay.

-k

Edited July 2, 2015 by NkEnNy

[Variable 322]

I sign on every word ^.

[R3vo 2654]

Yup, can confirm that. R3vo reported it already here.

(Also the tracks can be damaged by the grenades. It takes 2-3 good hits to disable the track.)

Does that mean it's intended behaviour ?

[Alwarren 2767]

Yup, can confirm that. R3vo reported it already here.

(Also the tracks can be damaged by the grenades. It takes 2-3 good hits to disable the track.)

Does the dust and smoke thrown up by grenades obscure AI vision?

[enex 11]

Does that mean it's intended behaviour ?

i will go with assumption that it is.

Comparing with life events I would speculate that lobbing 40mm grenades would do more harm then good for the attacker which

has lighter armored vehicle (anything but slammer, t-100 and Kuma) and would result in attacker's death due to alerting enemy tank

[ceeeb 147]

I've recently found an AI detection issue, where AI become implausibly aware of the player's exact location when explosives or satchels are remotely detonated (or just explode due to timer). See feedback tracker report: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=24590

This bug was found and resolved a few years back in Arma 2 OA 1.62.

It has also been reported by some users earlier in Arma 3's life (without repro steps), and at that time I did try the Arma 2 OA repro method without being able to recreating the issue.