AI Discussion (dev branch)

[sqb-sma 66]

I'm more excited about those AI changes than Altis. Maps get old fast, gameplay is what keeps a game going (and AI is at the forefront of Arma's gameplay).

And I'm glad to see BadBenson not replying to those posts, whether he's shown the immense strength of seeing someone attempt to continue an argument that... should've wrapped up a long, long time ago, and then deciding NOT to reply, or if he's just been AFK. It's been good for the thread, and good for the rest of us.

If any of you get into an argument on here, try to recall that it's not you vs somebody else, it's both of you vs the issue (which may be either of you not understanding the problem, NOT NECESSARILY THEM). Lay down all your knowledge and get them to do the same before introducing argumentative techniques, you should be able to find the exact point you disagree on and then start providing evidence on that point alone. If you/them/whoever is wrong is smart they'll change their point of view. If they refuse to... well, they're stubborn assholes, and probably not too intelligent to boot.

Now, about the ETA on that patch :rolleyes::D *rubs hands together expectantly*

Edited August 26, 2013 by SQB-SMA

[gammadust 12]

there goes my attempt at changing the meaning of "asap"... i shall bring myself up to dev branch standard. As standard as possible then...

[sqb-sma 66]

there goes my attempt at changing the meaning of "asap"... i shall bring myself up to dev branch standard. As standard as possible then...

Good timing, the patch with Altis just got released for Dev.

[gammadust 12]

i have to admit the AI improvements was not alone in my impulse :icon_wink:

[metalcraze 290]

AI rotation speed dependent on encumbrance (more encumbered, slower rotation)

AI rotation speed dependent on stance (prone rotation ~3x slower than standing)

AI rotation speed dependent on speed of movement (AI that has been moving fast will turn slower than those that are static)

...I don't get it? Why nerf AI like that?

I thought BIS said the point was to make AI on par with the player, why make it so much worse?

Human players can turn around instantly no matter the condition, so why do this to AI?

In fact AI now seems to turn around even slower when prone making it more harmless than ever before.

Edited August 26, 2013 by metalcraze

[katipo66 94]

I'm more excited about those AI changes than Altis. Maps get old fast, gameplay is what keeps a game going (and AI is at the forefront of Arma's gameplay).

Agreed although I would say the 2 go hand in hand, some maps I feel focus on 'too much' realism without considering the AI, I think maps should be built specifically with AI movement in mind, things that may break gameplay is large fence lines with no gaps, or my favorite being bridges that the AI can't use. Choke points on roads that somehow AI easily get stuck on and therefore effectively breaking missions., but then some maps are built specifically for PVP with no AI in mind.

AI drivers in my group: One thing I would like to see fixed is AI drivers trying to keep formation after I disembark, it would be useful if the stop order applied when I exit and then let me issue another order when I want him to move again to avoid the oops I hit and injured or killed my buddies.

AI vehicles stuckMessing around on Sahrani I found to APCs stuck on a bridge next to each other, one just constantly trying to drive over the bridge, there have been times when they are stuck behind tree or lamppost... Now when this happens I usually go and guide them out by standing next to a vehicle at different angles and places can influence direction of driver and usually can unstuck himself.

It would be nice if the driver stuck behind the tree and then loaded some un stuck script that will make him realize he's been stuck behind a tree for the last half hour... This is a game breaker if you are relying on at least some of the AI turning up for battle.

AI corner breaking and breaking in generalthis is probably already discussed somewhere but AI drivers do not know how to break, there idea of breaking for a corner is to hit the corner at a hundred mph and then slam on the handbrake :D

Edited August 26, 2013 by Katipo66

[KeyCat 131]

Sounds like we got a bunch of great AI fixes/tweaks along with Altis. Looking forward to test them out!

/KC

[bad benson 1733]

Even with the delay, it often doesn't feel that right. It's like "we have no idea what's going on...damn ... OH I GOT IT NOW, LETS TURN QUICKLY!".

The "insta-turn" after a kill almost feels more natural sometimes. Like a reflex action.

i could even agree with that if several other factors would be different.

1. this "reflex" should happen always (depending on distance maybe?) and NOT ONLY when someone gets killed. i'm not after nerfing the AI. i want logic, consistency and i want it to be convincing.

2. at certain (unrealistic) distances the "quickturn" will absolutly result in instant detection. saying "it's just the unbalanced spotting time" is oversimplification. compare that to them looking for you after ground suppression. it will look totally different.

If we think about the delay, which in the case of killed member, is very short, and bigger when only wounding, or only hearing a shot.

Then it doesn't override anything, because the SAME "quickturn" happens just earlier when the danger is really high.

If this is what's going on, then the delay after one member killed, should be ...about 1 second?

Or should there be a bit slower turn speed?

in my opinion the delay should be the same no matter if a unit gets killed hit or if you just suppress the near ground. anything else will always feel unnatural. i mean in the latest patches we finally had behavior added like AI "looking" for you. why would that suddenly not be the case and just be replaced by instant directional adjustment when someone gets killed? inconsistent and unrealistic.

If, after the quickturn, the AI didn't actually see you, but dropped to the ground to cover their teammates sprinting to cover, there would be no problem.

absolutely and exactly my point. additionally the turn shouldn't be as accuratly towards the player but rather towards a general FOV towards the player like at least 90°.

The 'quickturn' (I'll try not to whince at this term) is ideal behavior. What happens in the split second after is the problem.

and that is where you are just wrong. please don't take this as an invitation to another episode:p just compare suppression to the ground and killing one dude. there is nothing wrong with detection in general. the problem is the aid in form of the quick turn when someone gets killed (and who knows what else gets triggered in that situation). the quick turn is way to accurate and at the moment isn't a quick look in the sound direction. it's an automatic spotting help. what you said in the following only makes that point...

let's just agree to disagree

In other words, they should turn instantly and resolutely towards the sound of the gunshot, and then exhibit that prone, horizon-scanning behavior that occurs when you shoot the ground at their feet.

so yea while i think you are still tangled up in splitting hairs calling the quick turn ideal just to disagree with me:p, you are actually 100% agreeing. you are just isolating the quick turn as if it wasn't the exact cause of the problem. as i and yourself said above. how they will spot you after suppressing with about 5 shots is basically what should be universial behavior and there should be no special aid whatsoever when a squad member got killed. they will actually almost behave like it was suggested here on early pages bringing things like area search into play. they will check several directions and then eventually spot you.

so yes "quick turn" would be great if it wasn't for several other things

1. quick turn occurs instantly only after killing a squad member

2. in the above case the quick turn results in instant detection

you can't ignore these.

so the ideal quick turn you describe is nonexistent in the game right now.

and that also answers your question:

Query: If an AI squad hears a gunshot from 6 o'clock, should every member of that squad turn to face 6 o'clock and scan the horizon for enemies? Yes or no?

BadBenson, it's been hours. You've read the thread, now answer the question.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Bad Benson
spelling'n'grammar

[afp 1]

Just tested the new turn speed a bit, things are obviously pushed forward in the right direction. After accuracy, the turn speed is the second main important factor in defining the AI strength. The way it is now it is natural, probably the real life speed.

However I think its a bit too fast (for standing) and make them a bit too overpowered. They turn and open fire precisely a bit too fast.. maybe some aiming time should be added after turning or slower the turn speed a bit. (regular, skill 0.5)

[Shagulon 1]

After a brief play through, first on the infantry showcase, then a little invade and annex co-op (just me on the server though) I can report that it felt that the AI were a bit too inaccurate. I was able to take some decent cover and take on first one full 8 man squad, and then another that appeared part way through the fight. I was killed eventually but I have ripped through about 10 opfor. Really 1 vs 8 should mean I get pinned and dispatched fairly easily. I know that the server was on regular, and I'm not sure what accuracy settings they had. With regards to the infantry showcase, I was playing veteran, but I have altered the accuracy settings myself sometime ago when the AI used to snipe you easily.

I think I either need to up the accuracy settings again, or BIS make it slightly harder for players to fire accurately. I think I might prefer the latter for longer firefights.

There was mention of BIS releasing some recommended config settings. Anyone seen them yet?

[-ghost-tf 12]

...I don't get it? Why nerf AI like that?

I thought BIS said the point was to make AI on par with the player, why make it so much worse?

Human players can turn around instantly no matter the condition, so why do this to AI?

In fact AI now seems to turn around even slower when prone making it more harmless than ever before.

The problem is not AI being nerved, the problem is they will have to do it with the players now aswell, which I hope they will post release.

Im just going to quote Varanon:

I know a lot of people will hate what I ask now, but wouldn't it be possible to do something similar to player movement ? Maybe in a more moderate manner, but it would definitely address issues like, for example, the insane rotation speed when prone. It would also "penalize" people in CQB situation carrying heavy weapons like sniper rifles or machine guns and it would actually give an advantage in CQB when you are using a submachine gun (less encumbrance, faster turning speed).

Tying the run speed to those factors will also remove the artificial launcher = slow, pistol = fast, even if you have both of them in your inventory.

[Dwarden 1125]

Human player turn speed / encumberance / inertia vs movement / rotation vs stance ... are subject of it's own 'tweaking and balancing' and not subject of AI thread ;)

[metalcraze 290]

Human player turn speed / encumberance / inertia vs movement / rotation vs stance ... are subject of it's own 'tweaking and balancing' and not subject of AI thread ;)

Well the fact is - this patch nerfed AI making players even more superior to them in CQB (and in the open when it comes to movement turning) unless AI is standing and is half-naked then they turn around at about half the speed a player can. So while it's improved (but not fixed) in 1 case in all other cases it's been made worse.

Just get rid of turn speed limits completely and be done with it. Simple and effective.

1.0 skill - instant turns. 0.0 skill - turtle turns like now. No need for pretend-realism "AI is prone let's limit it 3x / AI carries stuff, let's make it turn slow" limits when the game does not play like that for humans.

Edited August 26, 2013 by metalcraze

[royaltyinexile 175]

Well the fact is - this patch nerfed AI

If this is what you actually believe, we must be playing two entirely different games (then again, apparently Altis is 'a desert')! :D

This is, objectively, incorrect. I do wonder if you've actually tested the repros as requested, or are just basing this from the descriptions and a perverted interpretation alone.. :confused:

We've endeavoured to make the AI more responsive in CQB - more deadly - and the first thing you say is that they're now easier/'nerfed'.

Best,

RiE

[Shagulon 1]

I don't think that Dwarden and metalcraze's posts are very constructive.

Yes human turn speed etc isn't part of this thread, but no game mechanic can ever be considered in isolation. I think the turn speeds seem better/faster now, but the human player should have some limitations too.

the system is taking shape nicely and I have high hopes it is going in the right direction, but still some distance to go. Keep up the excellent work though :)

[Varanon 892]

We've endeavoured to make the AI more responsive in CQB - more deadly - and the first thing you say is that they're now easier/'nerfed'.

From what I've seen, they go prone too fast, thus suffering from 3x slower turn speed. If they feel the need to go prone, they should turn first and then go prone. Otherwise, you will get similar results to how it was before (slow turn speed).

[metalcraze 290]

I did play and test incl. the repro I've added myself to 'reflexes' (#3592) ticket. In many restarts AI will go prone and then will turn around even slower than it did before taking it many seconds before he kills that passing AI.

The player on the other hand turns around instantly when crouched/prone/running/combat-pacing. How is that not a nerf for AI when a player can put on 100 kgs and suffer no consequences turning around with the same speed and precision as without any load and AI will turn around a lot slower under the same condition?

AI becomes deadlier only when it's standing and isn't loaded and even then it's still worse than a player who as I've said can and will turn around instantly no matter which stance/speed/load he has. This patch would've been an improvement if the game had only AI but as it has human players and AI gets limited even more compared to them - it is a nerf.

[fabrizio_t 58]

If this is what you actually believe, we must be playing two entirely different games (then again, apparently Altis is 'a desert')! :D

This is, objectively, incorrect. I do wonder if you've actually tested the repros as requested, or are just basing this from the descriptions and a perverted interpretation alone.. :confused:

We've endeavoured to make the AI more responsive in CQB - more deadly - and the first thing you say is that they're now easier/'nerfed'.

Best,

RiE

I'm on RoyaltyinExile on this, basing my opinion on the few minutes i've run the dev build.

AI was not definetely "nerfed" imho, and consider i'm rather picky on AI stuff ;).

It is indeed more effective in CQB, as it was told (thanks DEVs).

From what i can see AI units are now able to take aim faster and do react faster to threats on flank (e.g. when cornering).

By the way, i don't think AI is overpowered, at least on normal difficulty.

Great job so far, looking for glitches now.

Edited August 26, 2013 by fabrizio_T

[Shagulon 1]

They don't go prone in CQB, but the definition of CQB is <75m I believe. For Arma 3, perhaps this should be increased to say 150m? Whatever distance you can reliably hit a target while standing with whatever weapon you are carrying? Is there separate AI based on the different weapon types?

[Varanon 892]

They don't go prone in CQB, but the definition of CQB is <75m I believe. For Arma 3, perhaps this should be increased to say 150m? Whatever distance you can reliably hit a target while standing with whatever weapon you are carrying? Is there separate AI based on the different weapon types?

I'd call this prone, and the distance is something like 30 m. Pop out of cover, and shoot, and they go prone. And they did see me, I wounded one, and one of them turned in my direction. If I run out now, the prone guy will not be able to keep up... if he remained standing, his reaction time would be much better, and with no penalty, since lying there in the middle of nothing won't give him much cover, either.

[Alwarren 2767]

I'm on RoyaltyinExile on this, basing my opinion on the few minutes i've run the dev build.

That sounded dirty :P

AI was not definetely "nerfed" imho, and consider i'm rather picky on AI stuff ;).

I agree with what was said above, from my observation they go prone too fast and suffer turn speed penalty, especially since they won't get up again. I could do the same game again where I run around an AI and he cannot hit me. When they are standing, or crouched, things are much better, but since they seem to go prone very often, there is a definite issue there.

I don't know if that is even possible, but AI should prefer crouching pver prone in urban terrain unless they have a clear target they can hit. From about ten tries, the AI goes prone 8 times immediately; the two times it didn't, I was instantly shot.

---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:30 ----------

They don't go prone in CQB

Negative on that. They definitely go prone. I was maybe fifteen meters away, behind them. The moment they notice me they go prone.

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:31 ----------

since lying there in the middle of nothing won't give him much cover, either.

It might be a possibility to have the AI not stay prone when they have no cover and there is a known target close to them, like 30-40 meters...?

[Shagulon 1]

Ah sorry I should rephrase that then, they're not meant to go prone (as much) in CQB :)

I hope they can work on that tendency to prone in CQB if they will (rightly) keep their turn speed slower.

[5133p39 16]

...I don't get it? Why nerf AI like that?

Have you tried on Veteran difficulty? (ie.enemy AI skill 0.85)

Try this mission and tell us who got the highest score (you, or AI?) http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/itemedittext/?id=173076844

[maturin 12]

• AI accuracy influenced by shooting (more shooting, less precision)
  
• AI accuracy influenced by movement (more movement, less precision)
  

These are changes we've all been waiting for! Excellent!

I just have two questions/observations.

Most of all, isn't the first item on the list backwards? Shouldn't the AI start out inaccurate and then walk rounds onto a target, learning from the shots that he missed, and finding the range? Of course, it he has been shooting for ten minutes, I understand the fatigue, achy shoulders, etc. Perhaps you could elaborate if you find the time?

As to the second item, will this make AI inaccurate when they suddenly stop moving and instantly fire? This would fix some of their seemingly robotic behavior. If not, how is this different from simple fatigue?

My first impression (using the repro mission created before any of the CQB fixes) was that it was really a fun challenge from one point of view, and totally brutal from another. The initial state of the repro (which should be still reproducible in the default branch) was that the enemies weren't able to engage me when I was revealed and sometimes struggled to move around the corner effectively. Now (in dev branch state) the AI will sometimes actually get a couple of shots off in the initial phase and be far more effective when coming around the corner.

Yes! Please overpower the AI in CQB! Force us to make realistic missions where you require 1:1 ration of forces to prevail. This should be the ArmA holy grail.

Just so long as their long-range spotting abilities become more human in the bargain.

Compared to the previous state, it might seem the AI is 'overpowered'; however, when I compare it to experiences in other shooters, it seems like 'correct' behaviour (ok, maybe on a 'hard' difficulty): reactive and deadly at short range! :cool:

With this in mind, we've got a proposal for an overhauled AI difficulty settings for the game options, which we'll share when we can. For now, let us know what you think (ideally using my repro to begin with).

Best,

RiE

[metalcraze 290]

@Sleeper: First of all I have AI skill set to 0.95 in my cfg and always test with maxed skill slider in the editor.

Second and 'why I complain about this' - AI rotation speed becomes worse based on its stance, load and movement speed which do clearly make it inferior to the player that has absolutely no such penalties whatsoever.

In coop or SP AI will carry heavier loads, travel bigger distances etc. Limiting AI based on these should not happen at all.

Try coming up on AI who is crouched or prone and he will turn around literally like a turtle whereas the turn should be instant.

And AIs do go prone or crouch in cover a lot and when they do they are a fair game since they now have this artificial pseudo-realistic turn speed limit for some reason even though humans have none.

Remember Balance thread? "Balance for us is making AI on par with the player". So how is it making AI on par with the player when it does not turn around almost instantly when prone or crouched and quite the opposite?

Edited August 26, 2013 by metalcraze