AI Discussion (dev branch)

[oukej 2910]

AI going prone too much in specific situations is an issue we are aware of and we've also found it troublesome during testing the changes in CQB environment.

Afaik it happens mostly when the AI has no waypoint (which can be considered wrong mission design; ) or it is somehow uncertain - e.g. hears the enemy first.

Similarly to other AI changes this is something that needs a very careful approach and a lot of programmers' brains. Otherwise you improve or fix it there and break it elsewhere. The interconnections are many and not always clear on first, second, even tenth sight.

When I encounter a bug - be it the most trivial one - already knowing how easy it is to fix it, I can't always see how fixing it could completely break the game in other aspects ;) But luckily there are others who do.

That is also why you see changes handicapping the AI. Giving the AI freedom of turning speed the player has would just ...another storm would form above our heads and I don't probably have to tell you why ;)

[sberla101 50]

I made a video of how it moves the new AI, I can put it on this thread?

[dale0404 5]

If it is to do with the AI improvements etc then of course you can mate.

[ProfTournesol 956]

AI going prone too much in specific situations is an issue we are aware of and we've also found it troublesome during testing the changes in CQB environment.

Afaik it happens mostly when the AI has no waypoint (which can be considered wrong mission design; ) or it is somehow uncertain - e.g. hears the enemy first.

Similarly to other AI changes this is something that needs a very careful approach and a lot of programmers' brains. Otherwise you improve or fix it there and break it elsewhere. The interconnections are many and not always clear on first, second, even tenth sight.

When I encounter a bug - be it the most trivial one - already knowing how easy it is to fix it, I can't always see how fixing it could completely break the game in other aspects ;) But luckily there are others who do.

That is also why you see changes handicapping the AI. Giving the AI freedom of turning speed the player has would just ...another storm would form above our heads and I don't probably have to tell you why ;)

And how about a CQB waypoint type, such as "DEFEND AREA" ?

[metalcraze 290]

That's a good idea. The waypoint a radius of which sets limits which AI will not leave is long overdue.

[sberla101 50]

team vs team, waypoint seek and destroy, open fire engage at will, speed normal, combat, formation for Blue Line, for Red Staggered Col, AI skill default... think easy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LQipouEV9U

sorry for bad quality

[instagoat 133]

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13397

For vehicles, I've made this ticket. I feel the ability to control who is turning out is vital, because you should be able to direct your main weapon on a vehicle when turned out.

For example, in the Arma 2 T-72, you couldn't fight as commander with hatch open, because driver and gunner would turn out too: this is -wrong- and needs to be addressed. Unless they are ordered to, they should stay inside the vehicle. Is this possible to change, at this point? It would be great if it were.

The other two issues are not -as- vital, but at least the weapon selection I'd also see being addressed. What does the rest of the community think?

Cheers

Insta

[fabrizio_t 58]

One thing I've noticed. AI will fixate on a direction (often completely wrong), but if enemies are spotted they turn and engage, before fixating back on the weird direction.

True.

This still needs to be fixed.

Also i've seen AI units warping some times, curious whether anybody saw the same.

Edited August 27, 2013 by fabrizio_T

[clydefrog 3]

True.

This still needs to be fixed.

Also i've seen AI units warping some times, curious whether anybody saw the same.

I have seen this in the editor if I know what you're talking about, so it's nothing to do with bandwidth. You see them kind of get dragged back towards their group, is that what you mean?

[ScratcH334 10]

Or how about a new behaviour type for the waypoints, instead of combat or aware you choose CQB which will give the AI a complete new behaviour pattern where they refrain from going prone and actually use buildings when ordered a defend waypoint.

[andersson 285]

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13397

For vehicles, I've made this ticket. I feel the ability to control who is turning out is vital, because you should be able to direct your main weapon on a vehicle when turned out.

For example, in the Arma 2 T-72, you couldn't fight as commander with hatch open, because driver and gunner would turn out too: this is -wrong- and needs to be addressed. Unless they are ordered to, they should stay inside the vehicle. Is this possible to change, at this point? It would be great if it were.

The other two issues are not -as- vital, but at least the weapon selection I'd also see being addressed. What does the rest of the community think?

Cheers

Insta

Agree. Missed that function since OFP. Sometimes I need better awareness while still keeping my crew in combat modus.

[Tyl3r99 41]

introducing another issue with AI/gameplay

when healing a fellow friendly soldier, your soldier stops and does the healing animation and the soldier that you are actually healing simply still wonders off. making you looking like a complete tool.

anyone else notice this?

[petek 62]

retried RIE repro mission with latest build. Can confirm still going prone in CQB too much - this is with them having a "hold" waypoint. As someone else said I thought this was fixed a while back? Anyway - steps in the right direction

cheers

[fabrizio_t 58]

I have seen this in the editor if I know what you're talking about, so it's nothing to do with bandwidth. You see them kind of get dragged back towards their group, is that what you mean?

Yes. It's not MP related.

[dr. hladik 231]

Could you please Focus on changes we made and RoyaltyinExile described in #690?

We know you have plenty ideas what should be improved and we want to hear them, but we must finish this first.

[das attorney 858]

To me, the changes feel much better than AI as it was before in CQB. They feel snappier and move with purpose. Turn rate seems pretty good as well.

This is just commentary and not empirical evidence however so just wanted to chip i saying how they felt.

One issue though, the turn radius on staircases was too sloppy before so they clipped through the walls of the control tower on Stratis Air Field while trying to climb and fell to their doom.

Now, they turn so tight, they turn back on themselves and can't make it round the corner to go up the stairs.

[mr_centipede 31]

First impression the AI are very good now, deadly as they should be... Havent seen AI passing each other oblivious of one another (different sides ofcourse)... Will test further

[maturin 12]

AI accuracy influenced by shooting (more shooting, less precision)

AI accuracy influenced by movement (more movement, less precision)

The turn rates seem decent. In a tip of the hat to Metakcraze, I would support allowing the AI to prone swivel faster if they are moving a full 180 degrees, but that's more complex than a tweak.

I just have two questions/observations.

Most of all, isn't the first item on the list backwards? Shouldn't the AI start out inaccurate and then walk rounds onto a target, learning from the shots that he missed, and finding the range? Of course, it he has been shooting for ten minutes, I understand the fatigue, achy shoulders, etc. Perhaps you could elaborate if you find the time?

As to the second item, will this make AI inaccurate when they suddenly stop moving and instantly fire? This would fix some of their seemingly robotic behavior. If not, how is this different from simple fatigue?

Lastly, I think we need to crowdsource the accuracy changes. Does anyone have a hit rate script we could all share? Then we can compare stances, etc.

[afp 1]

Regular difficulty, one single enemy AI, skill 0.5, having one "HOLD" waypoint, open fire engage at will, full speed. (this setUnitPos "DOWN" in init field, but this is not necessary, you can shoot so he prone). Approaching from behind, I'm still able to move around him, without being shot.

Conclusion: need to increase the rotation speed for AI prone stance or make him aim faster with upper part of the body, or something else.

Edited August 27, 2013 by afp

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Any idea if these changes have hit the dev build? I'm still observing the same thing.

Just to confirm this has been fixed now, AI now seems less "floaty-slidey" in buildings and deals with staircases like a champ. :)

[maturin 12]

Regular difficulty, one single enemy AI, skill 0.5, having one "HOLD" waypoint, open fire engage at will, full speed. (this setUnitPos "DOWN" in init field, but this is not necessary, you can shoot so he prone). Approaching from behind, I'm still able to move around him, without being shot.

Conclusion: need to increase the rotation speed for AI prone stance or make him aim faster with upper part of the body, or something else.

Or make him move to kneel when he is aware (either by footsteps or hearing) of nearby enemies.

Another urgently-needed fix is making the AI able to pinpoint the direction of nearby (CQB) gunfire to withing 150 or so degrees. Currently their hearing accuracy for this is nil. They can pinpoint footsteps VERY well, but look in the exact opposite direction of gunshots behind their backs.

Edit: First small survey sample accuracy test.

Conditions: Standing AI rifleman shooting player, 200m. Unit skill 50%, Enemy skill in Game Option 0.76. precisionEnemy=0.56799883

AI standing: 2 hits out of 60 shots. No hits scored at all for the first magazine. Firing was single shot, well-spaced out. Careful shooting.

AI crouching: 2 hits out of 60. Same style of firing.

AI prone: 4 hits out of 60.

This accuracy is so low that I don't think I will be able to find any measurable difference for fatigued and encumbered units. Even on Veteran settings (AI skill .85, precisionEnemy=0.73), the prone AI scored only 5 of 60 shots.

But most of all, AI is still extremely likely to score hits on the first shot after reloading. In the end, I suspect fixing AI accuracy will require more than skill tweaks.

And are you sure the latest changes haven't broken AI RoF? Even autoriflemen are engaging with single shots at 200m.

Edited August 27, 2013 by maturin

[fabrizio_t 58]

Or make him move to kneel when he is aware (either by footsteps or hearing) of nearby enemies.

Another urgently-needed fix is making the AI able to pinpoint the direction of nearby (CQB) gunfire to withing 150 or so degrees. Currently their hearing accuracy for this is nil. They can pinpoint footsteps VERY well, but look in the exact opposite direction of gunshots behind their backs.

Edit: First small survey sample accuracy test.

Conditions: Standing AI rifleman shooting player, 200m. Unit skill 50%, Enemy skill in Game Option 0.76. precisionEnemy=0.56799883

AI standing: 2 hits out of 60 shots. No hits scored at all for the first magazine. Firing was single shot, well-spaced out. Careful shooting.

AI crouching: 2 hits out of 60. Same style of firing.

AI prone: 4 hits out of 60.

This accuracy is so low that I don't think I will be able to find any measurable difference for fatigued and encumbered units. Even on Veteran settings (AI skill .85, precisionEnemy=0.73), the prone AI scored only 5 of 60 shots.

But most of all, AI is still extremely likely to score hits on the first shot after reloading. In the end, I suspect fixing AI accuracy will require more than skill tweaks.

And are you sure the latest changes haven't broken AI RoF? Even autoriflemen are engaging with single shots at 200m.

Interesting, especially since there's no difference between crouched and standing (wrong imho).

I like the fact that veteran scores 2.5x, seems acceptable to me.

The 2x prone / standing ratio makes sense too.

Overall accuracy is quite low though.

What i've noticed is that prone AI units tend to fire alot into the ground, even on high skill.

Edited August 27, 2013 by fabrizio_T

[froggyluv 2136]

Interesting.

What i've noticed is that prone AI units tend to fire alot into the ground, even on high skill.

I think that prone accuracy is a bit low.

Yep. I encountered 3 enemy AI lined up prone at 3m spacing while I was only 10m away -they couldn't hit me as I did the lateral shake and jive dance for a full 45 seconds. Noticed a lot of dirt kickup and then realized they were mostly firing into the ground.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Yep. I encountered 3 enemy AI lined up prone at 3m spacing while I was only 10m away -they couldn't hit me as I did the lateral shake and jive dance for a full 45 seconds. Noticed a lot of dirt kickup and then realized they were mostly firing into the ground.

Then try putting yourself near the top of a hill. Put prone enemy AI units close, on the opposite side.

Enjoy the fireworks ... full-auto fire into the ground.

This was an old problem affecting ArmA2 too, but it has worsened now.

---------- Post added at 17:46 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

But most of all, AI is still extremely likely to score hits on the first shot after reloading.

I noticed this aswell, but some time ago in ArmA2.

I thought that by repeatedly firing the AI unit became progressively "tired" and less accurate.

[maturin 12]

New tickets, everyone. I think I discovered a new little bug in AI detection. May have contributed to that issue BadBenson and I were arguing over so much: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13429

And this one just needs some votes, because it's such a no-brainer: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13433

Making AI hearing a little better at range (I don't know why the changelogs are moving in the wrong direction on this): http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13436

Edited August 27, 2013 by maturin