Fatigue effects

[-=seany=- 5]

I think the reason I felt sprint was more limited than Arma2 was the fact that Arma3's jog speed is a lot slower than Arma2's. The difference between Sprint and Jog in Arma2 is so slight that the animation change was enough to convince me I was moving faster. When in fact it was the same speed.

However, as I mention, the jog speed in A3 being so much lower is still a considerable change to the series with regards realism, even with blur removed.

Out of curiosity I did a test:

In Arma2 it takes 2:43 to jog a kilometer (jog speed is constant throughout). In Arma3 it takes about 4:05. (that's with a basic soldier; Rifle, 6 mags, 4 throwables).

Also Arma2 allows you to sprint again much quicker than Arma3. Your gun takes longer to steady in Arma3 as well. All more realism than we have had before.

Again, I don't think anything is wrong with these limitations. I just don't think we need much more limitation to compensate the removal of blur. Nothing drastic anyway (forced walk for example).

I think I would prefer more limited load outs than some thing like forced walk, if I had to choose. Or perhaps slower jog with very extreme loadouts.

Edited July 5, 2013 by -=seany=-

[-Coulum- 35]

I am actually quite happy with the changes from 2 to 3 which seany outlined very well (don't forget the fact that you can now jog up hills it just drains you faster which is imo good). The only thing I would like to see is a broader spectrum of effects for light and heavy loads. The medium loads are pretty good. Its just that someone who is butt naked should be able to jog/sprint much faster and someone carrying over 50kg should jog/sprint much slower. Right now the difference between light, medium and heavy load-outs is minimal and isn't really realized unless your someone who sprints whenever he can.

Also, the weapon sway is to easy to nullify by simply going prone, and doesn't last long enough or start quick enough imo - but that is just a little detail that bugs me.

I think I would prefer more limited load outs than some thing like forced walk, if I had to choose. Or perhaps slower jog with very extreme loadouts.

Whereas I would prefer unlimited (well what is physically possible) loadouts, that are "limited" by realistic penalties such as force walk, rather than some arbitrary game limitation telling me I can't take more than X number of missiles. If it can fit in my bag I should be able to take it. The realistic penalties of doing so should dissuade me from doing so though. just my opinion.

[afp 1]

I think they are still working on this, it should be pretty easy to fix it if certain items are limited to vest, or uniform. The problem is that each soldier container (uniform, backpack, vest) is seen as a single volumic container, when in real they have sections.

For example, you may put a 20 liter missile in a 60 liter backpack, still you can put that missile in a 20 liter vest, too. That's because the vest is seen as the sum of all pouches. Solution?

Each container should have a "MaximumPouchVolume" parameter, not allowing items larger then it. So if the vest has a total of 20 liters and a MaximumPouchVolume of 2 liters, you can only put in it small magazines or objects, no way to put a missile or a rocket.

This way, limiting unrealistic loadouts is done long before weight affecting your jog and people can carry a normal weight, not 200kg.

Edited July 5, 2013 by afp

[twisted 128]

The jog time before blur seems to take a lot longer imho. I now mostly experience blur when being a cock and running around with a huge sniper rifle, AT launcher and backpack that contains Titan missile. Other than that i can jog a lot longer but not forever. It's MUCH BETTER now and the blur acts as a very intuitive informational aid staying, your avatar is tired, time to rest.

[bigpickle 0]

I find it funny how you claim that a soldier can sprint with 100-200 kg on his back.

Soldiers who don't, die. Its basic infantry movement us Brits call it "Hard Targeting" for obvious reasons. Have you ever done or attempted any of the things your claim are impossible using your uniformed idea "realism"? I assure you will move as fast as you need to to keep your self from getting hit regardless of load bearing.

This is a game period. A simulation means its accurate regardless of how boring that is or how people wont like it. ArmA has never been anything but a game and will stay that way so long as uniformed realism its displayed by its users.

I disabled the fatigue effects, so until it is changed you can play without pulsing myopia ;)

Fantastic mate

Edited July 5, 2013 by Bigpickle

[Variable 322]

I find it funny how you claim that a soldier can sprint with 100-200 kg on his back.

Soldiers who don't, die. Its basic infantry movement us Brits call it "Hard Targeting" for obvious reasons. Have you ever done or attempted any of the things your claim are impossible using your uniformed idea "realism"? I assure you will move as fast as you need to to keep your self from getting hit regardless of load bearing.

Bigpickle, what the hell are you talking about? Do you really believe a human being can sprint with so much load?

I just talked with a friend of mine, who serves in a special forces unit which is known to be carrying the most imaginary weights in the IDF. He laughed and said that most of the operators (average body weight of 70-80 Kg) carry up to 70 Kg, and it's certainly not possible to jog carrying this weight, let alone sprint! The most gigantic and strong operators with a body weight of 100 kg will be able to carry not more than 80 kg. Someone will have to help them stand up, they will act only as "mules" and will not be able to fight while carrying that load. And we are talking about a unit that carrying equipment on long distances is its main business.

So maybe you brits are super human, but if you are not please don't write unsubstantial information. Of course it's a game, but it shouldn't be a ridiculous one, especially if it aims to be somewhat "authentic".

Edited July 5, 2013 by Variable

[Brisse 78]

I know the men are carrying full combat great but remember they are trained military in top form, not computer potatoes like us.

Us? Don't underestimate the diversity of people playing Arma.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Brisse

[Varanon 892]

This is a game period. A simulation means its accurate regardless of how boring that is or how people wont like it.

The DCS titles are also games.

ArmA has never been anything but a game and will stay that way so long as uniformed realism its displayed by its users.

That's why the Arma 2 box said "simulation". Seems even the developers were "uninformed"

[metalcraze 290]

Soldiers who don't, die. Its basic infantry movement us Brits call it "Hard Targeting" for obvious reasons. Have you ever done or attempted any of the things your claim are impossible using your uniformed idea "realism"? I assure you will move as fast as you need to to keep your self from getting hit regardless of load bearing.

I think you need a reality check.

This is a game period.

No way! ArmA is a game? Impossible!

And just because you want a dumbed down instant gratification shooter and find a game that also challenges brains, not just twitch skills boring doesn't mean ArmA should be ruined so people like you can one man army around and ruin it for the rest of us.

Edited July 5, 2013 by metalcraze

[Smurf 12]

So, soldiers can carry as much as they want IRL. Why they don't do it? Why the marksman doesn't carry an AT aswell?

Oh... it's a game.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Smurf

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Soldiers who don't, die. Its basic infantry movement us Brits call it "Hard Targeting" for obvious reasons. Have you ever done or attempted any of the things your claim are impossible using your uniformed idea "realism"? I assure you will move as fast as you need to to keep your self from getting hit regardless of load bearing.

Yes, but still the average British soldier's individual load is still far less than 100-200kg. 200kg is nearly 1/3 of the load carried by an entire patrol these days, and soldiers on ops are widely considered to be overburdened at that.

Current operational combat order (including all the sustainment kit - food water etc, CIED search equipment, extra ammo and so on) is averaging around 50-60kg according to ITDU (depending on the soldier's individual role in the patrol). And blokes aren't expected to run long distance, let alone sprint in full combat order anyway, just yomp/tab longer distances. That's why you have a stripped down assault order for when the shooting starts and running/sprinting is expected.

None the less, the increased weight of assault order alone (mainly due to the bulk of body armour) has been seen to be compromising the ability of soldiers to fight effectively - run decent distances, get up from prone, scale objects etc.

3Cdo's CFT and the Army's infantry AFTs involve an 8 mile (12.8km) speed march with a 'mere' 25kg load, completed in under 2 hrs - should give some indication of what's expected of particularly fit personnel in our armed forces.

Edited July 5, 2013 by da12thMonkey

[Masharra 10]

Im just going to leave these here http://thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoadReport.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA212050

[Varanon 892]

Im just going to leave these here http://thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoadReport.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA212050

Thanks. Interesting read!

[shark-attack 2]

A sprint with 100 kg -200kg ? Maybe a universal soldier from Hollywood could manage that type of load out , even my old mate John Rambo would struggle ! You must be to make such a claim.

That's like having a 16 st min to 32st max trooper on your back ... Us Brits who served call that impossible. :raisebrow:

[afp 1]

3Cdo's CFT and the Army's infantry AFTs involve an 8 mile (12.8km) speed march with a 'mere' 25kg load, completed in under 2 hrs - should give some indication of what's expected of particularly fit personnel in our armed forces.

This should be a default standard for ArmA too. The game jog is pretty much the ussual speed march you're talking about. About the sprint, it should be like... being able to recover if you carry less then 20Kg and you only jog....after a while. Removing the ability to sprint completelly after 10 seconds seems too harsh.

[metalcraze 290]

People who whine about ACE's fatigue btw:

With realistic light loads (which are the same in ACE as in vanilla A3: rifle, pistol, some medkits, ammo, grenades) in ACE it's possible to sprint 4-5 times longer before getting fatigued than in ArmA3. And ACE has no blur too.

But it's a great thing that ArmA3 is a game and not a.... "not-game" which it would've been if it had any realism in it and thus a soldier with a light load is able to sprint for only 150m!

[Brisse 78]

Im just going to leave these here http://thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoadReport.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA212050

Interesting stuff. Here is the most important part I think:

Loads currently recommended by the U.S.Army Infantry school are 33kg for an approach march load (45% of body weight) and 22kg for a combat load (30% of body weight)

[afp 1]

The second document is just awsome, studies about human limits, energy costs, loadouts etc.... a "must read" for whoever do the fatigue balance in ArmA. Still reading, thanks for sharing, Masharra.

Physical Training

Lothian (68) provides several examples of how physical training has been used to improve marching with loads. Roman legionnaires are estimated to have

performed road march training 3 times a month. They probably marched 32 km at a rate of about 5 km/h carrying a 20 kg pack. Cromwell and the Duke of

Wellington emphasized marching with loads. In Cromwell's Army (1640) pay was contingent on marching 24 km on a regular basis. The French Chasseurs (WWI)

marched two times a week over 13 to 18 km carrying a "light kit". Germans (WWI) took recruits out on an initial 10 km march; 1 km was added weekly

until a 20 km march could be completed in "full kit".

Edited July 5, 2013 by afp

[bigpickle 0]

200kg is for sure is impossible and i never made such a claim shark-attack if you ment me, but 100lbs, on ops most guys will have about that including all kit and water. Full out 100m sprinting is also impossible but short bursts is doable.

But still it kills Arma3 the game play only being able to sprint for such as short period, the fatigue system is too dramatic, but there has to be a balance between fun and real, atm its swinging far to close to real to be fun.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Bigpickle

[Masharra 10]

200kg is for sure is impossible and i never made such a claim shark-attack if you ment me, but 100kg, on ops most guys will have about that including all kit and water. Full out 100m sprinting is also impossible but short bursts is doable. But still it kills the game play only being able to sprint for such as short period, the fatigue system is over kill, it doesn't need to be ultra realistic but there has to be a balance between fun and real, atm its swinging far to close to real to be fun.

You Brits are bloody supermen. Are you guys on Ketracel-white? Is that 100kg including the actual persons weight?

Also can you list out the gear that equals this 100kg aka 220.462lbs? Remember you have "MOST GUYS"

Maybe if you were a dismounted 81mm even then.

on reading up on it it seems you brits carry inane weights

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8455741/Britains-donkey-soldiers-are-losing-the-war-in-Afghanistan.html

"Writing anonymously, the author reveals that the Taliban have dubbed British soldiers "donkeys" who move in a tactical "waddle" because they now carry an average weight of 110lbs worth of equipment into battle."

Unfortunately you are still about 100lb aka 50kg too heavy.

"The officer claims that by the end of a routine four hour patrol, soldiers struggle to make basic tactical judgements because they are physically and mentally exhausted."

Edited July 5, 2013 by Masharra

[bigpickle 0]

Of course it is :p and of course im talking averages etc but also 12thMonkey was right it is role influenced too, when your yomping it gets nasty cos then every shares and carries gun ammo and possibly mortar ammo too. From my experience US lads carry more than brits on average too from my experience when meeting them in Iraq.

But as I'm agreeing it still don't change the fact that currently for the sake of fun the fatigue happens too fast.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Bigpickle

[metalcraze 290]

but 100kg, on ops most guys will have about that including all kit and water.

I guess the documents and facts posted in this thread don't matter? You know the real truth?

Are you a brit? KG does not equal lb. It's way heavier.

atm its swinging far to close to real to be fun.

Do you even know what 'real' means?

In ArmA3 you are running for MUCH shorter distances with a light load than you should IRL but at the same time you are able to run with a fantasy load that no human will be able to run with.

Arma3 is completely and utterly unrealistic in this regard.

[Alwarren 2767]

200kg is for sure is impossible and i never made such a claim shark-attack if you ment me, but 100kg, on ops most guys will have about that including all kit and water. Full out 100m sprinting is also impossible but short bursts is doable.

But still it kills Arma3 the game play only being able to sprint for such as short period, the fatigue system is too dramatic, but there has to be a balance between fun and real, atm its swinging far to close to real to be fun.

Fatigue system? What fatigue system? That currently looks like a T-shirt print: "I lug 200 kilograms and all I got was this blurring"

[Varanon 892]

200kg is for sure is impossible and i never made such a claim shark-attack if you ment me, but 100kg, on ops most guys will have about that including all kit and water.

That must be a pretty heavy soldier, if a approach march load is about 45 % of body weight, like, must be a 220 kg guy.

But still it kills Arma3 the game play only being able to sprint for such as short period, the fatigue system is too dramatic, but there has to be a balance between fun and real, atm its swinging far to close to real to be fun.

So, it's ok to sprint for ages with a 100 kg load, just because it's a game ? What about the authenticity that has been promised for Arma 3 ? Is it authentic (NOT realistic, but authentic) to be able to sprint with a 100 kg load ? Not even close.

And again, any resemblance to reality is dispelled with the magic "It's a game" mantra.

For your reading pleasure

Edited July 5, 2013 by Varanon
Added link

[bigpickle 0]

So, it's ok to sprint for ages with a 100 kg load, just because it's a game ?

yes. why would i be saying this other wise, it detracts from the fun. Or as ive said before the ability for user control on fatigue system.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Bigpickle