Fatigue effects

[dale0404 5]

Usually, said AT guy would just carry one rocket, and is accompanied by an ammo bearer that carries one, maybe two spares.

True, but BIS need to balance reality with the fact that Arma 3 is a game.

[Masharra 10]

But this should only be for unrealisticly heavy loads. We shouldn't have a heavy AT guy who can't keep up with the rest of the squad because he can't sprint at all.

Im sorry but you move as fast as your slowest man.

Squad mate too slow? Even out the weight between the squad. You know teamwork?

Still to heavy? Then maybe youre carrying too much stuff.

True, but BIS need to balance reality with the fact that Arma 3 is a game.

What madness is this?

(arma 2 so pardon me)

X player is a mg with a pk can carry max 600 rounds but is limited to 500 because of smoke and frag grenades.

A rifleman should step up and say "hey MG let me carry some spare rounds for you because you shoot a ton more than me and your value to the squad is much higher." and thus the rifleman carrries a spare 100 round box. If it were ace he would also carry the spare barrel. LO said Rifleman is no longer a mere rifleman he is now an Assistant MG/ammo bearer.

I assume nothing has changed with arma 3 in regards to that? or does arma 3 throw out all pretences of teamwork because it is now a "game"?

Edited July 4, 2013 by Masharra

[Smurf 12]

True, but BIS need to balance reality with the fact that Arma 3 is a game.

So what? Not even in BF you can carry that many missiles\rockets, I don't see a single good point in carrying that much stuff.

[dale0404 5]

So what? Not even in BF you can carry that many missiles\rockets, I don't see a single good point in carrying that much stuff.

I totally agree with you on this I really do. But Arma 3 is not VBS 2 and Arma 3 is being marketed as a game.

[metalcraze 290]

I totally agree with you on this I really do. But Arma 3 is not VBS 2 and Arma 3 is being marketed as a game.

It's marketed as a realistic game with "authenticity" being repeated in every interview by its creative director. There's nothing realistic nor authentic about 100kg+ loadouts and lack of ammo bearers.

VBS2 is a game too. Anything where you use WASD to move on a polygonal ground and LMB to shoot virtual soldiers is a game. Surprise.

[Varanon 892]

True, but BIS need to balance reality with the fact that Arma 3 is a game.

Right, that's the "argument" that always cuts. "It's a game."

A game does not mean we throw ALL sense of reality over board. A game does NOT mean we can carry 200 kg. Or five rockets that are each and every one of them larger than the backpack they are supposed to fit in (see my screneshot if you don't believe me)

We've already established that Arma has come from "simulation" (as heralded by the Arma 2 box) to a "game", and we accepted that. However, how often do I need to hear "it's a game" to justify that all pretense of realism or authenticity is thrown out of the window and replaced by over-the-top "gamey" features ? Like being able to carry a damn small cow on your back and even sprinting with it ?

You can invoke the "it's a game" mantra as often as you like, but it does not justify a total deviation from reality.

And even if you say "It's a game", then you will have to define the direction of that game. "It's a game" works both ways, you can also say that the fact that you need an ammo bearer makes the "game" much more depending on teamwork. This also works for a "game". Of course, this works against the "game" where you are a one man army running around with your fully loaded arsenal of five rifles, two rocket launchers and enough ammunition to kill the army of a third-world country.

[dale0404 5]

It's marketed as a realistic game with "authenticity" being repeated in every interview by its creative director. There's nothing realistic nor authentic about 100kg+ loadouts and lack of ammo bearers.

VBS2 is a game too. Anything where you use WASD to move on a polygonal ground and LMB to shoot virtual soldiers is a game. Surprise.

No mate VBS2 is not a game. As you no doubt know it is classed as a simulator, period. And btw, there does need to be some tweaks to what you can carry but as I have said, it needs to be balanced between reality and gameplay.

---------- Post added at 16:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------

Hold on guys, lose the hate!! I don't want the game to go down the route of COD / BF etc and I highly doubt that it will. It comes down to balancing and accessability to the people who will buy the game.

[metalcraze 290]

No mate VBS2 is not a game. As you no doubt know it is classed as a simulator, period.

Simulator is a genre of gaming.

I have VBS2 and it plays just like ArmA except it has many interesting features that ArmA doesn't. No need to tell me what it is or isn't.

Or perhaps you will explain to me why VBS2 where I move with WASD and shoot with LMB is not a game but ArmA3 where I do the same is?

Or why GTR2 is not a game but NFS is. Or why DCS A10C is not a game, but HAWX is.

And btw, there does need to be some tweaks to what you can carry but as I have said, it needs to be balanced between reality and gameplay.

All it needs is making soldiers not being able to carry more than they do in reality.

After all not even Battlefield 3 lets .50 cal rifle + AT launcher happen and yet BF3 seems to be heralded as a standard ArmA3 should aspire to by ArmA3 new fans.

Edited July 4, 2013 by metalcraze

[Anachoretes 10]

VBS is training program...for training. Not are gaming program.

But soldier must carry a reasonable amount of things and move with appropriate speed in ArmA.

[dale0404 5]

VBS is training program...for training. Not gaming program.

But soldier must carry a reasonable amount of things and move with appropriate speed in ArmA.

Thanks for clearing that up lol. And the second sentence comes down to balancing the game... do I need to repeat myself again?

[metalcraze 290]

VBS is training program...for training.

Really? Because I certainly don't use it for training. I use it to have fun with all the gameplay systems that ArmA doesn't have.

It even comes with zombies by default. Wonder which kind of training those are used in.

[dale0404 5]

@metalcraze,

VBS was and still is being marketed towards the worlds military. Have a look here mate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBS2

If you want to discuss VBS2 however please post in the VBS2 thread and I will happily reply. :) Now, back on topic...

VBS2 thread: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?109702-VBS2-Discussion-thread-the-one-and-only

Edited July 4, 2013 by dale0404
Added link for VBS2 thread.

[Varanon 892]

Hold on guys, lose the hate!! I don't want the game to go down the route of COD / BF etc and I highly doubt that it will. It comes down to balancing and accessability to the people who will buy the game.

I'm not hateful. I'm just tired. Because every time I want to argue anything, I get either ignored, or I get the "It's a game" or "It's alpha" (and recently "It's beta") kind of replies.

For example, it has been argued that "future tech" made the missiles lighter. By cross-referencing with the actual weight of a mk20 (which is an F2000, give or take), I could actually PROVE that the missiles weight AS MUCH OR MORE than current AT/AA missiles. Result: Everyone ignores this. No further comments. Suddenly, we have prove that I was right from the beginning, and the answer is silence. Except for the occasional "It's a game" of course.

By the same test, I can also show that a load of 1.0 corresponds to 175 to 200 kg. In other words, a soldier in Arma 3 can carry the weight of a small cow or a large boar on their backs. This isn't "balance", it's totally over the top.

As I said, we all accept that there is a balance to be made between what is possible in real life, and what is possible in a game. However, the current situation is not a balance between game and reality, it far exceeds any pretense of reality.

[dale0404 5]

...Good Stuff...

Well said mate.

[Anachoretes 10]

metalcraze

VBS is pure platform for training and simulations. You can play in 3Dmax too. But this software was invented for other purposes.

[metalcraze 290]

@metalcraze,

VBS was and still is being marketed towards the worlds military.

So what you are saying is that VBS2 is not a game simply because it's not marketed towards you?... Oh... Kay...

Let's get back on topic, wasn't me who started all this "simulator is not a game" nonsense.

[virtualinfantry 10]

Back on topic, the feature is a game breaker. Annoying a user and his ability to enjoy a game... Blur in any game is a 101 game designer effect, abused to the masses, as its the designers easiest way to implement immersion.. Its also very abusive to a persons eyes and will guarantee a alt-f4 experience....

Blurring should be removed from not onyl this game, but ALL GAMES.

Simply put, if you want no one playing your game.. leave it in.... I guarantee you, I will walk away if it remains.

And its design things like these that change, why you should never PRE_CHARGE ANYTHING for your software... but doubt that will ever change..

I mean talk about what should be lawsuits.... if you pay for something that you are experiencing, and then this comes and ruins it for you, should you NOT be entitled a refund?

Edited July 4, 2013 by virtualinfantry

[Smurf 12]

Hold on guys, lose the hate!! I don't want the game to go down the route of COD / BF

At this point, it could be a better decision to anchieve authenticity and realism aspects. :D

Joking. But the "it's a game" argument doesn't cut.

I'm not asking for "severe punishment" because I want a pain in the ass realistic zimulator but because it is a "passive" way to enforce teamplay, and teamplay it is fun for a game.

[liquidpinky 11]

Main problem in this topic is people who either play in Clans or organised team games preaching to those who don't.

Sure the squad moves as fast as the slowest man, if the squad gives a fuck. Try it in a pub server.

Now I understand it needs to fair and balanced, but my fear is that, as usual, those like myself who don't take the piss out of the system will be punished thanks to the players who would probably like only one gear button when looking in an ammobox that says "Give me all the things".

Currently the relationship of weight to fatigue is a linear graph, or certainly felt like it when I was testing, and should maybe be more of a curved graph which should get steeper the closer you get to the maximum weight limit.

That way the piss takers will take more of a beating at the upper end of the weight scale.

As it stands I have become to like the current system, blur and all, and even got a laugh out of it last night when two obviously overloaded players wondered why I could catch up and pass them when I also had a launcher and support weapon.

Reason being they had all the heaviest of gear and me having done my homework had chosen the lighter MX and Titan over the Mk200 and PCML they were carrying and I have also learned how to manage the fatigue and keep it minimal or at bay.

I also think gear volume has to come into the equation more to reduce the ridiculous amount missile overloading.

[Masharra 10]

it is a "passive" way to enforce teamplay, and teamplay it is fun for a game.

Im coming to the conclusion that people dont actually want teamplay. Its a buzzword used to sound cool and important.

What they really want is winning/score/equalfeelings.

They dont want the dependency of teamwork. They want the benefits of it without the downsides. Somewhat like sniper rifles. All the benefits of reaching out and touching someone without negatives of the environment acting against you.

To be fair I also understand what you are saying LiquidPinky. You push your soldier to the limits because you understand those limits and how to work with them.

[liquidpinky 11]

Im coming to the conclusion that people dont actually want teamplay. Its a buzzword used to sound cool and important.

What they really want is winning/score/equalfeelings.

They dont want the dependency of teamwork. They want the benefits of it without the downsides. Somewhat like sniper rifles. All the benefits of reaching out and touching someone without negatives of the environment acting against you.

Some of us do teamwork all day at work and are completely fed up of it at home time, some are also capable (while pissing the one trick ponies off) of doing more than one job and being good at it as well. Jack of all trades, mastered a few.

Let us simulate this in the game as well as it is a real life occurrence, or do we just simulate the bits that each individual find suits them.

Like a lot of the Fatigue testing going on in here that is very biased usually to producing the results said tester only wants to hear and not very thorough.

[metalcraze 290]

Main problem in this topic is people who either play in Clans or organised team games preaching to those who don't.

Sure the squad moves as fast as the slowest man, if the squad gives a fuck. Try it in a pub server.

Battlefield 3 has realistic load limits enforced through its class system. It's a public game through and through. Why there people do not whine that evil "organized" players preach to them?

Do you see a BF3 player complain that he isn't allowed to carry a .50 cal sniper rifle and a huge AT weapon at the same time? No you do not.

In fact if that was possible in BF3 - fans would crucify DICE in an instant.

And even more. Unlike the so called "people who play organized" - a casual pub player did get what he wanted. Blur is going to be gone tomorrow.

While people who want realism and authenticity in a game that always was about realism and authenticity and those were its selling points - got a vague "we will probably look into it but I can't promise anything".

(and BTW I certainly appreciate DarkDruid not staying silent and communicating with us - even if it's not something me and similar minded people want to hear.)

Why a game, that was never about instant gratification and frag grinding that pub players want, should be changed so drastically to become something it was never meant to be?

It's the same as me coming to BF3 forums and whining that the game isn't realistic enough. But Battlefield never was about that. I have no possible cause to demand something it was never designed to be. Ever.

But why should a casual pub that didn't care about ArmA at all until a year ago (if not less) demand that it is to become something different?

Now I understand it needs to fair and balanced, but my fear is that, as usual, those like myself who don't take the piss out of the system will be punished thanks to the players who would probably like only one gear button when looking in an ammobox that says "Give me all the things".

And why exactly are you going to be punished unless you want "give me all the things"?

It's also not just about ammobox. Remember that you can pick all the gear from corpses you want.

Kill a sniper, kill an AT gunner. Congrats, you are a one man army now.

[Varanon 892]

Some of us do teamwork all day at work and are completely fed up of it at home time, some are also capable (while pissing the one trick ponies off) of doing more than one job and being good at it as well. Jack of all trades, mastered a few..

Geet, now that's an argument.

So basically, we have totally polar opposite ideas of how Arma should work ?

The promised game is about being authentic. That means you shouldn't be able to run around with a small cow strapped to your back.

Absolutely great, I try to argue, try to come up with reasons, and then get dismissed with "I don't want to"

Edited July 4, 2013 by Varanon

[bigpickle 0]

The fatigue seems like it just got worse with the last few updates, everyone I've spoken to in the clan im part of and in other ts channels dislikes the fatigue system, on the grounds that its unrealistic (most of us are Ex Mil) BIS please put a set of options to control it because from what im reading most ppl think its over kill currently, this is a solution that doesnt up set anyone, give the user the choice.

[liquidpinky 11]

Geet, now that's an argument.

So basically, we have totally polar opposite ideas of how Arma should work ?

The promised game is about being authentic. That means you shouldn't be able to run around with a small cow strapped to your back.

Absolutely great, I try to argue, try to come up with reasons, and then get dismissed with "I don't want to"

I don't have a polar opposite, I just think both style of players should be free to play the game (fairly) in their own manner. Not having someone else ramming their opinion down their neck like it is the Law, something I also get enough of in real life and play games to get away from.

Mostly in this topic it is all either "I want all the things" vs "I want nothing and nobody else should have it either"

Me, I am in the middle. I can stand far enough back from an argument to take in both sides of it and usually I find that both parties can have some decent points, as in the case of this topic.

We have people using the word realistic while urging for blur which isn't realistic at all. There are alternatives that do not require unreal bullshit post process effects to simulate. More weapon sway, being unable to hold breath or steady weapon while fatigued, weapon weight increasing this factor. Those are realistic as I can assure I have hiked with a lot of heavy gear, over miles and not just 1 pissy k either, and there is no blur but I probably couldn't lift my finger and touch my own nose for a few minutes after doing it either.

Why not simulate that instead of bollocks post process, the supposedly thinking man's answer to all worldly problems it seems these days, instead and get it right as opposed to someone's idea to dish out visual punishment to all and sundry?

As for I don't want to, seems you don't want either, you sound like the guy that goes all diva in the Snickers advert. Remember my post not that long ago about people seeing things the way that only suit them, you are doing it right now. :)

As for carrying a cow on my back, what myself and my wife do indoors is between us.