Fatigue effects

[metalcraze 290]

No what at least I think is that at lower loads it should NOT happen for a lot longer time.

But at heavier (and I mean HEAVY, not a normal loadout) loads it should be harsher and the upper limit shouldn't be 200kgs. It should be 70 at most. And people should be discouraged from taking even those 70 at once by harsher penalties. It should be there for emergency.

The end result is that there will be no one man armies but instead each soldier with a dedicated role just like IRL. This will also eliminate the plague of ArmA2 - annoying Sniper + Javelin combo*. Either you are a sniper or you are an AT dude. Not all in one. Want extra rockets? Work with your buddy who will carry them for you.

*In ArmA3 it grew into even worse Sniper + Javelin + Assault Rifle + Medic combo.

yes. why would i be saying this other wise, it detracts from the fun.

Seeing one man armies run around obliterating all the vehicles detracts from the fun too.

So is getting shot. How about we demand health regen now? After all "it's a game" - perfect excuse to dumb down anything and make every game piss easy.

Edited July 5, 2013 by metalcraze

[Varanon 892]

yes. why would i be saying this other wise, it detracts from the fun.

Right... I rest my case

[bigpickle 0]

No what at least I think is that at lower loads it should NOT happen for a lot longer time.

But at heavier (and I mean HEAVY, not a normal loadout) loads it should be harsher and the upper limit shouldn't be 200kgs. It should be 70 at most.

yeah saw I had put kg i did mean lbs as you said so previous post is corrected accordingly, not sure where the kg came from I think you lot were saying that earlier when I was saying about hard targeting if carrying full kit.

[Masharra 10]

From my experience US lads carry more than brits on average too from my experience when meeting them in Iraq.

Read the document I liked a few pages back It showed average weights.

As a 11c -indirect infantryman

Those lads you met, were the exception, not the norm.

---- edit---

ah thats still on average heavier than the average us load. 60-80lbs with the extremes being 100's.

much different :P

[Alwarren 2765]

so you all think the fatigue system is not happening quick enough?

I think that the fatigue system allows for far too much combat load and has far too little effect. It's not about how quick it sets in, but rather how little effect it has.

There are IMO two basic problems with the current system:

a) It allows for too much weight to be carried by a single soldier. To quote Col. Kemp, former Commander of the British Forces in Afghanistan, "Carrying even 80 lbs is asking a lot of a solder, but it has to be done". (source)

b) It has too little effect on gameplay. Granted, you get a blur effect, you start to sound like a howler monkey during intercourse, but the general effect (weapon sway, movement speed) is way too unpronounced for it to be anything more than an annoyance

At the same time, I do agree that a minimal load should lead to significant longer running time than is possible right now.

From an authentic game, I would expect something at least moderately authentic in load capacity. That means I can NOT carry a launcher and five missiles around. It means that carrying capacity should be limited t a realistic load and anything in excess of this should cause faster fatigue, while a lighter load should allow significantly longer stamina.

I am NOT saying you should tire faster than it is now. I am saying that carried weight should have much more of an influence, and if you manage to lug 150 kilos on your back, you should not be able to move faster than walking speed. It just does not make any sense otherwise.

And since "balancing" is such a buzzword these days, in how far are soldier roles balanced if everybody can carry a nuclear arsenal on their back? BF3 at least manages to balance their game by kits with a semi-realistic loadout. I would expect Arma to do better than that, but apparently, it doesn't.

[liquidpinky 11]

I guess the documents and facts posted in this thread don't matter? You know the real truth?

The documents were just recommendations though, lets just stick to actual facts instead. That is my recommendation (you now see how much recommendations mean a shit as you are now about to go against mine ;) ).

We have people quoting the body weight ratio now like it is set in stone, last I checked it was recommended that you don't smoke also. Plenty people still doing it.

Do soldiers have weigh station where they are barracked, wouldn't want them being pulled over by the Department of Tabbing and being fined for being overloaded or having an unsecured load?

I think the facts from experiences soldiers and indeed those who know them bare better resemblance to the real thing.

Personally I do think that above 80kg would be ball busting for real and anywhere near it would be hard going indeed.

[dmarkwick 261]

Really? Because I certainly don't use it for training. I use it to have fun with all the gameplay systems that ArmA doesn't have.

It even comes with zombies by default. Wonder which kind of training those are used in.

Well.... it is a training tool. Armed forces around the world don't buy it to entertain their troops. You might notice the extreme unbalance of assets in the product - almost exclusively Blufor. All the cool stuff... Blufor. Opfor get Taliban & pickup trucks. And the ArmA1 Opfor, there is that.

..but yeah. Whatever you use it for, it is a training tool. It is full of commissioned features, just about anything you see in it was commissioned and paid for by some armed force. There are some things ported over from ArmA 2, technology & zombies mostly ;)

[Masharra 10]

\Armed forces around the world don't buy it to entertain their troops. \

You probably cant log in here but rest assured they do.

https://milgaming.army.mil/

Do soldiers have weigh station where they are barracked, wouldn't want them being pulled over by the Department of Tabbing and being fined for being overloaded or having an unsecured load?

Depends on definition of weigh station. Scales arent unheard of and the good ol

SGT lifts pack "this is too heavy Whats in here? Give X to Y he is lighter/ screw it"

(generalising)

Edited July 5, 2013 by Masharra

[bigpickle 0]

the guys saying the system is good, if you really want it authentic then you need kit drop off etc and on and on it goes until no-one plays cos its so bogged down in realism and loose the fun.

Almost all the people I have spoken to you disagree with you cos they still see it as a game.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Bigpickle

[Varanon 892]

The documents were just recommendations though, lets just stick to actual facts instead. That is my recommendation (you now see how much recommendations mean a shit as you are now about to go against mine ;) ).

We have people quoting the body weight ratio now like it is set in stone, last I checked it was recommended that you don't smoke also. Plenty people still doing it.

Those values aren't set in stone, but we're talking about deviations of a few percent... that is, maybe they carry 50 % of their body weight. Heck, maybe even 60 %. That's still nowhere near the 200 kg you can carry now.. Heck, let's say 150 % of your body weight, and we're still nowhere near the 200 kg.

The comparison with smoking is totally off the mark, too... it's not about being stupid, it's about being ABLE to. You can smoke, even if it ruins your health, but it is something you decide for yourself. It's not as if smoking puts a physical stain on you that you might or might not be able to handle.

Personally I do think that above 80kg would be ball busting for real and anywhere near it would be hard going indeed.

Check the link about the british soldiers I posted earlier. Some of the guys that had to carry some 75 kg had to undergo surgery in later years because it ruined their health.

[bigpickle 0]

I take it in game it uses Kg which is were the Kg argument comes from?

[Varanon 892]

the guys saying the system is good, if you really want it authentic then you need kit drop off etc and on and on it goes until no-one plays cos its so bogged down in realism and loose the fun.

Almost all the people I have spoken to you disagree with you cos they still see it as a game.

I don't think the system as it is now is good. You can carry too much. And you do tire to quickly even from small loads. You should be able to run longer, but carry less

[bigpickle 0]

I don't think the system as it is now is good. You can carry too much. And you do tire to quickly even from small loads. You should be able to run longer, but carry less

Then why we disagreeing when we actually agree ;) the only bit i care about is the actual fatigue effects are too harsh too fast for small loads the same as massive loads.

[Masharra 10]

I take it in game it uses Kg which is were the Kg argument comes from?

.... umm metric system. Always been used.

[Varanon 892]

I take it in game it uses Kg which is were the Kg argument comes from?

It comes from my observations of the "load" script command.

A mk20, which is basically an F2000, weights between 3.5 and 3.7 kg depending on version and optics. Adding a stripped down mk20 to a soldier makes his load go up by 0.02. This means, 3.5 kg is 0.02, hence 1.0 (i.e. the full load capacity of a soldier) is 175kg at least. A load of 175 kg corresponds to 1.0.

The mass values in the config entries give the mk20 a mass of 40, so I assume it's meant to be 4 kg (which corresponds roughly to the F2000's 3.5 kg). So if mass = weight * 10, a full soldier load corresponds to 200 kg.

The real value is somewhere in between, but it doesn't actually matter, because even if the mk20 is a very lightweight version of the F2000, the maximum load a soldier can carry is still 150-200 kg.

Clarification: 1lb is 0.45 kg, so a weight of 150-200 kg corresponds to 330 - 440 lb

Edited July 5, 2013 by Varanon
lb to kg computation

[bigpickle 0]

.... umm metric system. Always been used.

rgr i see now

[metalcraze 290]

You probably cant log in here but rest assured they do.

https://milgaming.army.mil/

"Games For Training (GFT) is a suite of training software applications installed on PC-based, networked, multiplayer training environment using the Commercial and Government Off-the-Shelf (COTS/GOTS) gaming technology, Virtual Battlespace 2 (VBS2)... "

Well damn. And here I thought VBS2 is not a game because Elite Tier 1 Operators from biforums told me so.

[liquidpinky 11]

Check the link about the british soldiers I posted earlier. Some of the guys that had to carry some 75 kg had to undergo surgery in later years because it ruined their health.

Done plenty of shit at my own job that has ruined my health, plenty of others too.

Guess we never followed the recommendations either, or as in most cases don't even know them or are educated about them.

The change in health and safety and use of PPE over the years of my own employment has changed drastically and I find that it is way better educated and taught to younger workers than I ever was.

People don't sit and check what recommendations are what before doing a job, they have a job to do and usually will do it regardless. Then reap the rewards later while sitting there wondering why there backs or knees are fucked.

[bigpickle 0]

"Games For Training (GFT) is a suite of training software applications installed on PC-based, networked, multiplayer training environment using the Commercial and Government Off-the-Shelf (COTS/GOTS) gaming technology, Virtual Battlespace 2 (VBS2)... "

Well damn. And here I thought VBS2 is not a game because Elite Tier 1 Operators from biforums told me so.

grow up

[da12thMonkey 1943]

I take it in game it uses Kg which is were the Kg argument comes from?

The kilogram is more or less the international standard nowadays so on an international forum people will generally use kg. It's pretty much only the US that uses lbs in any official capacity (plus a couple of African countries like Liberia IIRC). In the UK, lbs are now on only semi-official measures used for conversational purposes. Any official studies and publications in the UK will use kg - they are the standard in science and industry.

However, all measurements in Arma are based on metric units (meters, kph etc.) so it makes sense to use kg too. O2 uses kilograms for model weights and I imagine PhysX uses them too. However I think the config values for mass on objects in the inventory are actually written in hectograms (i.e 100 grams or 10ths of a kg) - which is a rather obscure metric unit.

Edited July 5, 2013 by da12thMonkey

[dmarkwick 261]

"Games For Training (GFT) is a suite of training software applications installed on PC-based, networked, multiplayer training environment using the Commercial and Government Off-the-Shelf (COTS/GOTS) gaming technology, Virtual Battlespace 2 (VBS2)... "

Well damn. And here I thought VBS2 is not a game because Elite Tier 1 Operators from biforums told me so.

LOL, so you see and highlight the word "game" without comprehending the sentence? :D

here, let me do the same:

"Games For Training (GFT) is a suite of training software applications installed on PC-based, networked, multiplayer training environment using the Commercial and Government Off-the-Shelf (COTS/GOTS) gaming technology, Virtual Battlespace 2 (VBS2)... "

:)

[metalcraze 290]

Yes. People repeat "it's a game" like a mantra here.

And look - VBS2 is a game. So says the military.

Everything else is genres. Yeah VBS2 is used to train military. So what?

It's a game.

It just has gameplay features that military needs specifically. Like AAR.

[bigpickle 0]

So surely on the fatigue issue a balance or trade off between fun/realism is needed, im sure BIS want people to enjoy their game especially as they have said many times they want to draw in new players, these new players are gonna come from non niche games more thank likely.

[dmarkwick 261]

For the record, I am for fatigue & encumbrance penalties. (although it wouldn't bother me if fatigue were not implemented).

There are a few things I should remind people of here:

1 The work is quite obviously still WIP (because we have been explicitly told this).

2 Whatever system is implemented will be for the out-the-box SP gameplay. This means the campaign. Whatever the direction of that will be the driving force for the system.

3 It can be changed.

[liquidpinky 11]

However, all measurements in Arma are based on metric units (meters, kph etc.) so it makes sense to use kg too. O2 uses kilograms for model weights and I imagine PhysX uses them too. However I think the config values for mass on objects in the inventory are actually written in hectograms (i.e 100 grams or 10ths of a kg) - which is a rather obscure metric unit.

I think all games use metric initially as it is way easier for programming the variables, then converted to other units if need be later with multiplication or division factors for UI display purposes. Probably find that the standard speed unit in A3 will be metres per second for example.