Fatigue effects

[LIMBSAVER 10]

hmmm... really? I don't see any other post on fatigue... :butbut:

[TSAndrey 1]

Dev said that it will there will be a disable option in the next dev update.

[bigpickle 0]

Dev said that it will there will be a disable option in the next dev update.

Really, woooowhoo ! i must have missed that. Great news, but would be better if we had more control over fatigue than on/off.

[Masharra 10]

Yes.

Authentic is the new buzzword for arcading shit up but trying to make it sound like it still has realism at heart. If you use the word realistic to refer to Arma 3, you don't get it, your a bitter Arma vet etc

By using "authentic" instead of realistic it adds the notion of "accessibility" which attracts new players who seen Arma previously as a game with a mensa level of complexity, driven by a small vocal minority of people with the brains of a spoon.

tl;dr This is a circle jerk, BIS will either find a middle ground for the stamina system that suits the dudebro's and us milsim nerds or we will just end up modding it ourselves.

Just close your eyes and listen to the first 45 seconds of this

Fun Fun Fun!

or 25-40 seconds

"For us it's about focusing on the core experience which is a tactical first person shooter that is set in a much more realistic and authentic environment than a lot of our competitors its not about being a military simulation its about fun its about gameplay and its about keeping the player engaged and entertained"

Oddly enough they also had more realistic loadouts.

That sounds very similar to a few things that have been said....

[afp 1]

I was ready to give them a chance at time but they came out with some forced graphical filters which weren't fun at all, I couldn't resist more then few hours...

http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2011/04/operation-flashpoint-red-river-review/red-river-12.jpg

[bigpickle 0]

Just close your eyes and listen to the first 45 seconds of this

Fun Fun Fun!

or 25-40 seconds

"For us it's about focusing on the core experience which is a tactical first person shooter that is set in a much more realistic and authentic environment than a lot of our competitors its not about being a military simulation its about fun its about gameplay and its about keeping the player engaged and entertained"

Oddly enough they also had more realistic loadouts.

That sounds very similar to a few things that have been said....

That's a bad example as the game was never a simulation like he claims and both games were utter rubbish on consoles anyway. That guy also has been caught out back tracking and telling pork pies time and time again just to cash cow the flashpoint name, i came to arma with the BIS devs for the reasons that they wanted to keep their games closer to the original idea, but still that doesn't mean that everything should be anally retentive with detail like in the real military where you go the long way round for the sake of it at times.

What I personally deem to be "fun" is experiencing those "arma moments", being bogged down by excessive volume on the fatigue audio as an example just detracts for the times for me.

Anyone who never saw dragon rising you were lucky, find some reviews on you tube.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Bigpickle

[Anachoretes 10]

Another comparison with other game that tries to copy the biased shooters. ArmA, fortunately, still follows its principles. This game brings a very rare fun. Not for casuals.

[Varanon 892]

ArmA, fortunately, still follows its principles.

It's about to throw off a few, unfortunately.

[Alwarren 2765]

ArmA, fortunately, still follows its principles.

I disagree. If you listen to the Red River interviews, you will hear the same stuff... "Authentic" not "Realistic". Arma 3 is going away from its principles and moving towards a casual/lone wolf game style. Realism is no longer an issue. Teamwork is no longer a requirement since every soldier now is a small one-man army. It's straying FAR off its principles, and that has gotten me very worried.

[Variable 322]

ArmA, fortunately, still follows its principles.

What makes you say that?

[Kerc Kasha 102]

I disagree. If you listen to the Red River interviews, you will hear the same stuff... "Authentic" not "Realistic". Arma 3 is going away from its principles and moving towards a casual/lone wolf game style. Realism is no longer an issue. Teamwork is no longer a requirement since every soldier now is a small one-man army. It's straying FAR off its principles, and that has gotten me very worried.

Because the inventory system isn't finished yet and the fatigue system is in its second iteration? come on now.

[Varanon 892]

Because the inventory system isn't finished yet and the fatigue system is in its second iteration? come on now.

Who says it's not finished ? Read DarkDruid's reply, he said they will look into the loadout but he can't promise anything. I remember early E3 videos said the inventory system would be a prototype, but we're in beta now, and it still the same. Usually, beta means no new features, just bugfixing.

And it doesn't stop there, there's a ton of things that deviate quite far from reality, too far to be still called authentic.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Who says it's not finished ? Read DarkDruid's reply, he said they will look into the loadout but he can't promise anything. I remember early E3 videos said the inventory system would be a prototype, but we're in beta now, and it still the same. Usually, beta means no new features, just bugfixing.

And it doesn't stop there, there's a ton of things that deviate quite far from reality, too far to be still called authentic.

The system itself might be finished but the values might not be, right now it's possible to carry an enormous amount of equipment in backpacks which is whats leading to this 'one man army' Alwarren speaks of and it not one part of it screams 'final' to me, all of it says 'temporary values'. Even if it doesn't get changed the fatigue system, which has barely been implemented, might be what will limit it.

Comparing Bohemia actions so far to DR is idiotic and the biggest knee jerk reaction in the history of this community.

[Masharra 10]

the biggest knee jerk reaction in the history of this community.

You must be new here :D

Maybe just a candidate...

That I can possibly agree to. :P

That being said... To say there arent any comparable points quite possibly the more idiotic of the two. It should be noted it was posted as less of a comparison between the two companies and more of a jab at the people who claimed "the game has to be more fun than real or it will die" or something to that effect.

Before one can call a comparison idiotic one should understand or atleast try to understand the point. People will say things like lol CoD, MoH, BF3, realistic? When it should be understood whilst the whole game isnt striving for realism it does have its realistic moments.

Now to keep on topic..

Perhaps they are altering the config values afterwards, thats great! BUT I would still prefer something another user mentioned. Your vest pouches can only hold ammo and such. You want to carry more grenades than normal? You have to take a grenadier vest, whilst sacrificing a dash of rifle ammo ( or not depending on vest * which opens up modular vests, modded vests,etc*).

Also what happened to body armour? Why isnt it a bit more modular? Atleast along the lines of R6 (Light Medium Heavy) with corresponding weights, carrying capacities, and mobility reducers.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Masharra

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Maybe just a candidate...

[Variable 322]

Comparing Bohemia actions so far to DR is idiotic and the biggest knee jerk reaction in the history of this community.

Are you automatically assuming this will get fixed while most of the chances that they will not, given official BI statements and the current development status of the game? It seems like your response is the knee jerking here. It seems like the pavlovian response that we get in several evolution forms "it's an alpha > it's a beta > it's the first release > it will be added in a patch > wait for the DLC" while in the meantime things are going in a very clear direction.

We have been asked to provide feedback, and this is what we are doing. therefore, if you are not going to counter our arguments and just keep the regular "it's a beta" chorus, your responses lack any value for this discussion.

[Alwarren 2765]

Because the inventory system isn't finished yet and the fatigue system is in its second iteration? come on now.

Who says it isn't finished yet? It's been unmodified since the very beginning, but that isn't the only thing. Let me see, we have instant grenade throwing without control, inertia-less movement, sun that is irrelevant, weapon size that is irrelevant, a first aid system with no discernible effect that makes a medic useless... Not even mentioning the fact that all of a sudden you can no longer access inventory in the briefing, or the fact that the devs don't even comment on any of these issues, or the fact that you can sprint uphill with 150 kg on your back.

There is a lot to be worried about, and even without those, the "authentic" vs "realistic" was mentioned numerous times in interviews.

I would go so far as to say it has strayed quite far away from them. Yes, I know, things MIGHT or might not get fixed during development, but for one thing, nobody says anything about it, and secondly, we're pretty late in the game to make major changes like this.

So yes, I am concerned. I am very concerned. I don't care what Wasteland players think about the changes. Yes, some of the changes are good, but but a lot of them aren't, and a lot of them go so far that I am seriously considering whether I want to play the game or not. I obviously cannot go back to "voting with my wallet" because I already bought the game (supporter's edition nonetheless), so instead I chose to vote by voicing my opinion. You might not agree to it, but I know a lot of people that do. I feel like this game is going in the wrong direction, far away from the principles it once had. When I see that a game like Battlefield 3 has better loadouts, and the effect of the sun is far more realistic than in Arma 3, then you can bet your bottom that I am concerned. This has nothing to do with the inventory system alone (by God I wish it was that), it's a lot of things and the usual "it's an Alpha" doesn't work anymore, "it's a beta" never worked on me, and "it's a game" is an excuse not an argument.

There you have it. Want me to go on?

[Anachoretes 10]

However, it is strange for me to build the pov on unfinished product. Arma 3 will not lose anything of what was in vanilla Arma 2. But acquires new. The developer, it seems to me, is engaged in the production base: animation, physics, etc. Why this panic? Everyone understood that game need a more "detailed" endurance.

We have loss of the wooden soldiers and shooting logs but this is not a change of course.

You are watching the process. It must be understood. And we have an opportunity to correct the course.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Are you automatically assuming this will get fixed while most of the chances that they will not, given official BI statements and the current development status of the game? It seems like your response is the knee jerking here. It seems like the pavlovian response that we get in several evolution forms "it's an alpha > it's a beta > it's the first release > it will be added in a patch > wait for the DLC" while in the meantime things are going in a very clear direction.

We have been asked to provide feedback, and this is what we are doing. therefore, if you are not going to counter our arguments and just keep the regular "it's a beta" chorus, your responses lack any value for this discussion.

Mate at no point did I spew out that 'it's beta' garbage, there's only a few instances where that is applicable I merely stated that those systems felt unfinished. I don't even disagree with you, in fact I agree with you entirely that the systems currently broken to the point of ruining the balance of the game.

What I was saying is don't overreact, post as much feedback as you want because yes, that's the only way this kind of stuff will get fixed in a swift manner. But posting BS about Bohemia 'straying' and crap like that is ridiculous and doesn't help anything or anyone.

Also what official word was posted on this? The only post I saw was Dark Druid saying he didn't have specific details on how or if the fatigue system will change, it doesn't say nothing will ever be done and 'it's all as intended'

[Masharra 10]

Arma 3 will not lose anything of what was in vanilla Arma 2.

You sound pretty sure of that statement. I sincerely doubt that. Arma 3 will lose numerous things from Arma 2. It is a given it just depends on what.

Also loss of wooden soldiers? Have you gone up a ladder lately? A bit of no clip here and there, add speed, and suddenly they arent the same wooden?* Or does the ragdoll suddenly make them not wooden.

generalising ofc :P

[Alwarren 2765]

However, it is strange for me to build the pov on unfinished product.

Said numerous times, once the game is finished, you lose all the possibilities to influence it. Hence, speak out now, or be forever silent.

Arma 3 will not lose anything of what was in vanilla Arma 2.

Oh really?

- No loadouts in briefing.

- First aid system is greatly simplified to a point where the medic is uesless, and is already stated to stay that way.

- Attacking against the sun has no discernible effect.

- You can stuff yourself full of ammo and missiles and carry several rifles with no real effect.

- You can sprint uphill and evade bullets matrix-style.

- The AI cannot hit you if you are close enough.

Just a small selection of things.

The developer, it seems to me, is engaged in the production base: animation, physics, etc.

You tell me, I'm a software developer myself. And contrary to a few other people, I know what "Beta" usually means.

So far I tried to argue my points, but maybe it gets more attention when I start to rant instead.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Alwarren

[Varanon 892]

However, it is strange for me to build the pov on unfinished product.

Again, feedback. They ask for it, they get it. If not now, when ?

Arma 3 will not lose anything of what was in vanilla Arma 2.

It already did lose a lot. I wonder what crystal ball you have that tells you otherwise ? You have no clue what is in store for Arma 3, unless you have information that is not yet available to the public ?

Why this panic? Everyone understood that game need a more "detailed" endurance.

We have loss of the wooden soldiers and shooting logs but this is not a change of course.

You are watching the process. It must be understood. And we have an opportunity to correct the course.

Again, what makes you think that ? Which part of DarkDruids answer didn't you get ? "We are looking into it, but we can't promise anything". I heard these words in different versions from other BIS developers, too, about a lot of issues.

And not "everyone understood that the game need a more detailed endurance". If you look through this thread, you will find a ton of people that are basically saying "scrap endurance". Again, I wonder how you come to another conclusion.

Watching the process, yes, and voicing concerns about the progress. Because if we don't tell what we thing is wrong now, we can not rightfully complain after release. Because, you know, that's what the feedback phase is for in the first place.

Yes, I am concerned about the current course. The sudden emphasis on features that are moving away from the way things were in Arma 2 (and I'm not talking about stiff animation or shiny graphics here, but core gameplay features) is bothering me. If you mistake that for panic, you're missing the point. As I said before, I accepted that suddenly, Arma is no longer a simulator (Arma 2 was, obviously, as it said so on the box) towards a "game" that is no longer "realistic" but "authentic". But I can't really accept that the game is moving towards "Wasteland standalone". I see authenticity thrown over board on multiple occasions (do I need to say "vehicle commander" ?).

Again, feedback. They asked for it. They get it.

[Masharra 10]

Hmm I was also thinking. If heartbeat sound were to be added maybe the aiming should be affected rhythmically from it? Though it has been a while since Ive shot a rifle so I cant remember if heartbeat affected me that much or if it was just struggling to control breathing. I may have said this before but...

How about giving us a number instead of some vague bar. We can do math!!!!

Edited July 7, 2013 by Masharra

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Who says it isn't finished yet? It's been unmodified since the very beginning, but that isn't the only thing. Let me see, we have instant grenade throwing without control, inertia-less movement, sun that is irrelevant, weapon size that is irrelevant, a first aid system with no discernible effect that makes a medic useless... Not even mentioning the fact that all of a sudden you can no longer access inventory in the briefing, or the fact that the devs don't even comment on any of these issues, or the fact that you can sprint uphill with 150 kg on your back.

There is a lot to be worried about, and even without those, the "authentic" vs "realistic" was mentioned numerous times in interviews.

I would go so far as to say it has strayed quite far away from them. Yes, I know, things MIGHT or might not get fixed during development, but for one thing, nobody says anything about it, and secondly, we're pretty late in the game to make major changes like this.

So yes, I am concerned. I am very concerned. I don't care what Wasteland players think about the changes. Yes, some of the changes are good, but but a lot of them aren't, and a lot of them go so far that I am seriously considering whether I want to play the game or not. I obviously cannot go back to "voting with my wallet" because I already bought the game (supporter's edition nonetheless), so instead I chose to vote by voicing my opinion. You might not agree to it, but I know a lot of people that do. I feel like this game is going in the wrong direction, far away from the principles it once had. When I see that a game like Battlefield 3 has better loadouts, and the effect of the sun is far more realistic than in Arma 3, then you can bet your bottom that I am concerned. This has nothing to do with the inventory system alone (by God I wish it was that), it's a lot of things and the usual "it's an Alpha" doesn't work anymore, "it's a beta" never worked on me, and "it's a game" is an excuse not an argument.

There you have it. Want me to go on?

Alright, true the system hasn't been modified since alpha but that may be because not all systems have been put in place to compliment it fully nor has all the content been implemented.

The instant grenade throw was something literally implemented before public Alpha, and has been said time and time again to be a quick and dirty implementation that isn't finished yet. Will it be fixed before release? Hopefully, but I prefer it over the old glorified suicide solution from the previous games.

Iertia-less movement is a casualty for smooth mouse and fluid controls. I don't expect this to ever come back, nor do I want it to (at least not in the way it was in previous titles).

I'm not sure what you mean by weapon size being irrelevant? Are we talking muzzle velocity (as it was with Arma 2) or getting your gun stuck in doorways, because the latter still happens with long weapons.

Yes, the first aid system is crap it's something I myself have been looking into improving, but if you actually look at the first aid system files everything is half finished and a work in progress. Things such as bleeding are in the files but deactivated, So i'm taking a wait and see approach to that.

The lack of inventory in briefings is frustrating, even worse still you can't access vehicles inventories while inside them using the briefing trick either. No idea why this was removed and this is the first post I've seen making a stink about it, which I'm glad to see finally.

The Realism vs authentic stuff is to stop people from demanding ridiculous levels of realism from the game, if people want the former so much go buy VBS2 as that's designed to be a full on simulator. I mean Arma 2 had a pinpoint accurate artillery computer, lock on guided RPGs, RPGs with zero deviation or drop, a hitpoint based armour system for tanks, and many other blatantly gamey features.

EDIT: Not saying these are fine, I used ACE to get rid of most of that crap(but similarly, removed parts of ace that I found to be idiotic and add nothing to the game) but sets a precedence of what to expect.

Also I've never played wasteland, and apart from the realism vs. games argument I agree with most of what you posted.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Kerc Kasha

[Variable 322]

However, it is strange for me to build the pov on unfinished product.

This statement contradicts the whole point of releasing the game in its alpha stage which IS an unfinished state, to the public to receive feedback.

Arma 3 will not lose anything of what was in vanilla Arma 2. But acquires new.

Not true. To name just a few features - First Aid System, gone. Weapon collision, gone. Sun blindness effect on tactical considerations, gone.

The developer, it seems to me, is engaged in the production base: animation, physics, etc. Why this panic?

The panic is a result of the current late development state, the investment of development efforts in satisfying the Wasteland hordes (investing efforts in making the game twitch streaming friendly, for example), while ignoring the traditional part of the community's requests for realistic (and fun) features.

You are watching the process. It must be understood. And we have an opportunity to correct the course.

That is exactly why we complain!!! To allow for BIS to correct itself.

Mate at no point did I spew out that 'it's beta' garbage, there's only a few instances where that is applicable I merely stated that those systems felt unfinished.

Rest assured that the game might very well be released with some unfinished modules.

I don't even disagree with you, in fact I agree with you entirely that the systems currently broken to the point of ruining the balance of the game.

So please support me (us) and voice your objections because if you don't you will get a broken game and won't be able to blame anyone but yourself. Well... you get my point ;)

What I was saying is don't overreact, post as much feedback as you want because yes, that's the only way this kind of stuff will get fixed in a swift manner. But posting BS about Bohemia 'straying' and crap like that is ridiculous and doesn't help anything or anyone.

Why not? It's a harsh but a valid feedback. I'm telling BIS fare and square that the core of the Arma experience is damaged. If that won't help, I don't know what will.

Also what official word was posted on this? The only post I saw was Dark Druid saying he didn't have specific details on how or if the fatigue system will change, it doesn't say nothing will ever be done and 'it's all as intended'

He also said the following:

We are going to look at it too, but I can't promise anything specific about it at this moment.

And that is very worrying and justifies our "panic".

Edited July 7, 2013 by Variable