General Discussion (dev branch)

[St. Jimmy 272]

Hmm, one change that could reduce the grenade spam capability and generally improve the inventory would be to disable the backpack from being considered as "ready storage", that way you could throw a grenade or two fast, but you'd have to pause to "refill" your vest/uniform so you could toss a few again.

For example:

• Magazines could only be reloaded quickly ("R" key or action menu action) if they are in the uniform or vest, if the ammo is in the backpack it's not accessible unless moved to "ready storage"
  
• Any throwable items could only be thrown if they're in the uniform or vest
  
• You could still reload the weapons with magazines from the backpack if you dragged and dropped the stuff from the backpack to the magazine slot
  
• Rocket launchers should probably be able to load their ammo from the backpack as their missiles do not fit into the uniform or vest and it would be a nuisance to have to drag and drop missiles every time then wait for the reload animation
  
• This would need to be explained to the player
  

Alternatively:

• Leave everything as is
  
• Severely increase reloading time if the magazine/grenade being loaded is located in the backpack
  

Very good suggestion.

[SaOk 112]

I was wrong - the high commanding error is still there. Dosent seem to happen always. With some spawned groups, the error dont display.

[Varanon 892]

It's 6 in 5 seconds and if you leave a target standing default grenade throw distance in front of you it's your own fault for not killing them first.

This assumes PvP though... if you have an SP (or COOP) mission, you can basically clear out a whole camp by lying on your belly, crawling the camp, and throwing your load of 40+ grenades in.

Arma 3 is full of these one-man army things. That is my major gripe, really

[-ghost-tf 12]

For example:

• Magazines could only be reloaded quickly ("R" key or action menu action) if they are in the uniform or vest, if the ammo is in the backpack it's not accessible unless moved to "ready storage"
  
• Any throwable items could only be thrown if they're in the uniform or vest
  
• You could still reload the weapons with magazines from the backpack if you dragged and dropped the stuff from the backpack to the magazine slot
  
• Rocket launchers should probably be able to load their ammo from the backpack as their missiles do not fit into the uniform or vest and it would be a nuisance to have to drag and drop missiles every time then wait for the reload animation
  
• This would need to be explained to the player
  

I just fell in love with this idea.

[Windwalking 18]

Hmm, one change that could reduce the grenade spam capability and generally improve the inventory would be to disable the backpack from being considered as "ready storage", that way you could throw a grenade or two fast, but you'd have to pause to "refill" your vest/uniform so you could toss a few again.

For example:

• Magazines could only be reloaded quickly ("R" key or action menu action) if they are in the uniform or vest, if the ammo is in the backpack it's not accessible unless moved to "ready storage"
  
• Any throwable items could only be thrown if they're in the uniform or vest
  
• You could still reload the weapons with magazines from the backpack if you dragged and dropped the stuff from the backpack to the magazine slot
  
• Rocket launchers should probably be able to load their ammo from the backpack as their missiles do not fit into the uniform or vest and it would be a nuisance to have to drag and drop missiles every time then wait for the reload animation
  
• This would need to be explained to the player
  

Alternatively:

• Leave everything as is
  
• Severely increase reloading time if the magazine/grenade being loaded is located in the backpack
  

Brilliant idea. It's not even confusing for new players. If it can be a part of the game, that would be fantastic, but if not, I am sure it can be modded.

[kylania 567]

you can basically clear out a whole camp by lying on your belly, crawling the camp, and throwing your load of 40+ grenades in.

Better mission design is the answer to that. If all your targets are in a 5m bunch behind a wall what do you expect? :)

Not saying that the current grenade system is perfect, it's just not as bad as the "fully auto hand grenade" people are making it sound.

It's never been a concern for me since A) I don't carry 30 grenades (usually 2-5) and B) I don't spam them because I'm don't play CoDBlOps and wouldn't think to do such a silly thing in the first place. ;)

[pettka 694]

• This would need to be explained to the player
  

And AI, don't forget the AI :bounce2: We have had some prototype of this and AI behaviour has proven to be the grindstone - they were either unable to manage free space in bags/vests/uniforms in order to be combat effective or they were "cheating" when allowed to reload from backpack :icon_twisted:

[Sniperwolf572 758]

And AI, don't forget the AI :bounce2: We have had some prototype of this and AI behaviour has proven to be the grindstone - they were either unable to manage free space in bags/vests/uniforms in order to be combat effective or they were "cheating" when allowed to reload from backpack :icon_twisted:

Yes, that's one of the things I did forget Sir Bounce-a-lot. :)

(Alongside a potential flag in the config for the on-person containers to toggle "ready storage" on or off in case of special types of containers that could be thought up by modders, like a vest that can't be accessed rapidly or a backpack that could)

But honestly, I'd be fine with AI "cheating" this way if we could have this system for the players.

They are limited in great many more ways than the players in many different aspects. This is one thing that I believe is acceptable to be compromised for the AI and let them utilize backpacks in a "cheat" manner as they do not behave like players when given freedom to abuse the system like players can currently.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Sniperwolf572

[-ghost-tf 12]

Yes, that's one of the things I did forget Sir Bounce-a-lot. :)

(Alongside a potential flag in the config for the backpacks to let them be considered "ready storage" in case of special types of backpacks that could be thought up by modders)

But honestly, I'd be fine with AI "cheating" this way if we could have this system for the players.

They are limited in great many more ways than the players in many different aspects. This is one thing that I believe is acceptable to be compromised for the AI and let them utilize backpacks in a "cheat" manner as they do not behave like players when given freedom to abuse the system like players can currently.

+1, AI is limited to 3 stances only, so it wouldnt matter much if they were cheating by reloading from their backpack.

---------- Post added at 21:25 ---------- Previous post was at 20:56 ----------

Not saying that the current grenade system is perfect, it's just not as bad as the "fully auto hand grenade" people are making it sound.

Honestly, if I were one of the guys inside this base, I wouldnt be able to tell the difference between an automated GMG or just some crazy infantry guy.

[comp_uter15776 1]

+1, AI is limited to 3 stances only, so it wouldnt matter much if they were cheating by reloading from their backpack.

Honestly, if I were one of the guys inside this base, I wouldnt be able to tell the difference between an automated GMG or just some crazy infantry guy.

That video... it's more of a semi-automatic than automatic, but definitely faster than what should be bolt-action ;)

<Hope you understand that analogy :p>

[Varanon 892]

Better mission design is the answer to that. If all your targets are in a 5m bunch behind a wall what do you expect? :)

Well, the blast radius of a grenade is quite big, I would guess that with this method, you can grenade a small encampment even if the targets are not clustering...

Not saying that the current grenade system is perfect, it's just not as bad as the "fully auto hand grenade" people are making it sound.

It's never been a concern for me since A) I don't carry 30 grenades (usually 2-5) and B) I don't spam them because I'm don't play CoDBlOps and wouldn't think to do such a silly thing in the first place. ;)

The problem is rather that if you want to balance your own missions, you need to take into account that people might pick up hand grenades from every falln enemy and hoard them, and then spam them when it comes to it. I wouldn't play like that either, but some people do, which makes it difficult for a mission designer to balance missions... I wish there was some natural "enforced" limit to grenades. I like Sniperwolf's proposal very much, this could be an "easy" solution for it

Oh, and Pettka, isn't it time to replace the evil icon with the bouncy icon :D

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 PM ----------

Honestly, if I were one of the guys inside this base, I wouldnt be able to tell the difference between an automated GMG or just some crazy infantry guy.

Thanks, Ghost, that video show almost everything that I find is wrong with Arma 3 at the moment

[-ghost-tf 12]

That video... it's more of a semi-automatic than automatic, but definitely faster than what should be bolt-action ;)

<Hope you understand that analogy :p>

Yeah, what I meant was if suddenly 64 grenades start exploding around you, it could be a GMG shooting from a distance or some random guy throwing grenades at you. In arma2 for example if more then 3 grenades start exploding nearby you would be pretty sure that its an AGS shooting at you.

[Alwarren 2765]

Problem with the old system was that grenade tossing was suicide since you were locked into an animation for seconds. But, you had realistic frequency of throwing, and more control. So here's how I would envision a good grenade throwing system could be done with little effort and little changes to the existing one:

The grenade key toggles between grenade and main weapon. If you press it, you get a grenade in your hand with the finger on the pin. Pressing the left mouse button "charges" the throw. You toss the grenade like it is now when you release the mouse button. When you press the right mouse button the throw gets cancelled. That way, you are not locked in a throw anim.

However, pressing the RIGHT mouse button has a similar "charge up" effect, only that when you release the button, you throw in a low arc. Again, pressing the other mouse button cancels the throw.

To recap:

Press and hold left mouse button -> Charge up and throw high arc

Press and hold right mouse button -> Charge up and throw low arc (through doors for example)

Advantage:

- No more crazy spamming. You need to hold the mouse a while

- More control over the length of the toss

- More control over the arc of the toss

- Throw can be cancelled at any time with opposite mouse button

Options:

- Cancelling a throw will switch back to weapon immediately

How does that sound?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Alwarren

[St. Jimmy 272]

And AI, don't forget the AI :bounce2: We have had some prototype of this and AI behaviour has proven to be the grindstone - they were either unable to manage free space in bags/vests/uniforms in order to be combat effective or they were "cheating" when allowed to reload from backpack :icon_twisted:

AI is always ruining all the fun :( Sometimes I just wish that this game would be PvP only :D

[barakokula31 10]

How does that sound?

I don't really like the charging idea. I think you should always throw with the same power, so where it lands would depend on the angle. Holding right and left mouse buttons could be used for cooking the grenade.

[Alwarren 2765]

I don't really like the charging idea. I think you should always throw with the same power, so where it lands would depend on the angle. Holding right and left mouse buttons could be used for cooking the grenade.

But that doesn't make any sense. If you want to lob a grenade over a wall, you don't need to throw it full force. And if you want to throw through, say, a door or window, you have zero tolerance for the angle, so how are you going to control that throw? As soon as your angle is limited like this, the current system has zero control over where the grenade lands.

[kylania 567]

Honestly, if I were one of the guys inside this base, I wouldnt be able to tell the difference between an automated GMG or just some crazy infantry guy.

We're back to game design. A bunch of static AI standing around an open area not reacting and no patrols. If you had sentries positioned intelligently that player would have been killed long before being able to do that.

Also, if some guy wants to pack a bag up with 60 grenades and hide behind a rock, more power to him. What difference does that make? If it's PvP you'll walk around the rock and shot the goofball in the face while he spams his G key. If it's Single player, who cares? Let him play how he wants. If it's co-op, shoot him in the face anyway and tell him to learn to play.

[metalcraze 290]

The player would've spammed sentries with 10 grenades first and then simply spammed the base with dozens of grenades anyway.

And now consider having a squad of people doing this all at once. But I guess all of this is authentic because that's what ArmA3 is all about.

And before anyone goes "but mission maker can limit grenades". Well I've played a mission once where we had 2 grenades each. Realistic loadout right? When we approached the outpost full with enemies 5 of us started throwing grenades in there. As a result in just 2 seconds we've managed to land 10 grenades inside the base. Do we have to pretend like we cook a grenade or something so stuff like this does not happen? This is ridiculous.

[kylania 567]

If you're having a squad of playing do that just stop playing like an idiot and/or stop playing with idiots. Problem solved.

[Masharra 10]

*raises hand* since when is throwing multiple grenades playing like an idiot?

[das attorney 857]

I just can't understand why they'd change something that wasn't broken. Crew helmets were fine. They just weren't coded in. Really can't understand how they mess something simple like that up when mods were unlocking them back in Alpha.

Hey Antoine - I'm late to the party so have missed a few pages to get back to you. Apologies if anyone has addressed your concern in the meantime.

I think it might be due to config inheritance - so if they change something up in the config tree, it changes (breaks) it for all "child" classes. Probably an oversight :)

[barakokula31 10]

But that doesn't make any sense. If you want to lob a grenade over a wall, you don't need to throw it full force. And if you want to throw through, say, a door or window, you have zero tolerance for the angle, so how are you going to control that throw? As soon as your angle is limited like this, the current system has zero control over where the grenade lands.

How about this, when the grenade is selected, you can change the force by pressing the toggle fire mode key (default F)?

[Smurf 12]

Guys - http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?147659-The-Grenade-Thread&p=2441792&viewfull=1#post2441792

We don't like it, (some?) Devs don't like it but it is working and it is what we have for now.

Won't change much for release as they have some way bigger fish to fry.

[Alwarren 2765]

Guys - http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?147659-The-Grenade-Thread&p=2441792&viewfull=1#post2441792

We don't like it, (some?) Devs don't like it but it is working and it is what we have for now.

Won't change much for release as they have some way bigger fish to fry.

Beg your pardon, did you watch Ghost's video? Granted, there are quite a number of fishes, but this is certainly one of the biggies.

[mbbird 11]

Beg your pardon, did you watch Ghost's video? Granted, there are quite a number of fishes, but this is certainly one of the biggies.

That is not for you to decide.