Steam discussion

[Sealife 22]

How exactly?

Oh stop repeating BIS market speak already. What does Steam-exclusivity add that would force BIS to spend additional 6 months developing the game otherwise?

You don't have to be Steam exclusive to have the game on Steam and use delta-patching. But you have to be Steam exclusive to have silly achievements, steamworkshop that is inferior to Six Updater in every way and glitchy matchmaking which wouldn't work in a game like ArmA.

Unless of course you know something I don't - then please share. Because so far it sounds like "Gabe has made us a good %%$$ offer if we keep it steam exclusive after DayZ success"

I don't buy BIS excuses because they never gave any reasoning behind their move. "Our game will get delayed to 2014" is not a reasoning.

I think it is one thing to spread conspiracy theory about Steam when your audience are users of Steam in part , however to Conspiracy about BIS on there forums without quoting there reasons and calling them BS not BIS , i think thats a bit of a liberty ?

[jefferspang 2]

Look, it's pretty common knowledge that you are the grumpiest person on this forum. You fly off the handle for the simplest of things and talk down to people like they are complete idiots. So yeah, it's not surprising you found something else to hate and will stop at nothing to dehumanize people for liking or finding no fault with Steam. You then create some "consumer rights" theory out of thin air, which I'm to understand means W0lle's theory that he should have complete power over everything in the universe to fit his wants and desires at the expense of everyone else's.

Would you say that is an honest critique of yourself, W0lle?

How could you possibly call someone "..talk down to people like they're complete idiots." and yet include such an obviously condescending rhetorical question at the end?

Also the consumer rights - "out of thin air" as you put it - is the European Union's Court of Justice's Digital Distribution laws with which Valve's Steam platform is in violation of.

[W0lle 1050]

He won't get it JeffersPang, no matter how hard you try.

@Hans Ludwig

I simply ignore your lame troll attempt, whatever you had in mind by personally attacking me - it did not work, you failed. Deal with it. :)

[TSAndrey 1]

How exactly?

What does Steam-exclusivity add that would force BIS to spend additional 6 months developing the game otherwise?

Server browser, DRM, launching, patching, modding...

[celery 8]

Server browser, DRM, launching, patching, modding...

Hardly a 6 month endeavor for an engine that already had working pipelines and existing functionality without Steamworks.

[Alexei Guba 10]

But... but... but, but haven't they said so? Must be true then, else... else they would lying no?

I don't need Steam for Patching, Serverbrowser, adding addons and missions. I wonder what retards there are who can't add a folder on their drive or running an .exe file.

Edited March 2, 2013 by AlekseiGuba

[Dwarden 1125]

But... but... but, but haven't they said so? Must be true then, else... else they would lying no?

I don't need Steam for Patching, Serverbrowser, adding addons and missions. I wonder what retards there are who can't add a folder on their drive or running an .exe file.

you might not need it, but we decided we need it ... and no matter how you unhappy with it, that's the way it is ...

note; we waited years with STEAM adoption , so the platform mature and offerings expands before we moved on it ... contrary to others

also, you need server browser if You want play MP and IF we for example decide to remove GameSpy ... or wanna tell me how You obtain the servers to play ? by fedex?

Edited March 2, 2013 by Dwarden

[PuFu 4600]

Oh stop repeating BIS market speak already. What does Steam-exclusivity add that would force BIS to spend additional 6 months developing the game otherwise?

You don't have to be Steam exclusive to have the game on Steam and use delta-patching. But you have to be Steam exclusive to have silly achievements, steamworkshop that is inferior to Six Updater in every way and glitchy matchmaking which wouldn't work in a game like ArmA.

You don't need to, but have you though it might actually easier/simpler to implement within BI developmeny pipeline?

six is fucking work of art (from the functionality and programing pov), but it's as far away as it can get from a usability and friendlines POV. Bi needs a solution that works from the bat, not an external software (no matter how good). get it?

How about steam for MP Browser, fav servers, friendlist and so on and so forth? That part of the Mp server browser and advanced UI could have easy taken another 6 month of development time.

Unless of course you know something I don't - then please share. Because so far it sounds like "Gabe has made us a good %%$$ offer if we keep it steam exclusive after DayZ success"

unfounded speculation..

I don't buy BIS excuses because they never gave any reasoning behind their move. "Our game will get delayed to 2014" is not a reasoning.

Knowing you, no matter of the reasoning BI would have put down, if it would be against of what you think of being "true", you would have behaved just the same

Server browser, DRM, launching, patching, modding...

modding part has nothing to do with the game being steam exclusive. I doubt Source SDK will be of any help withing RV engine

[Alexei Guba 10]

you might not need it, but we decided we need it ... and no matter how you unhappy with it, that's the way it is ...

note; we waited years with STEAM adoption , so the platform mature and offerings expands before we moved on it ... contrary to others

also, you need server browser if You want play MP and IF we for example decide to remove GameSpy ... or wanna tell me how You obtain the servers to play ? by fedex?

I understand. Thanks for you loyality and money in the past years. Now take what we throw at you or piss off. We dont care.

That's Bohemia Interactive in year 2013.

:(

Edited March 2, 2013 by Dwarden
missed IF in my entry, editing the quote to match it

[froggyluv 2136]

The level of vitriol and outright calling BI liars here is beyond fucked up. They made the game, they decide how to release THEIR product -we decide whether to buy it or not -period. Theres nothing wrong with voicing one displeasure - but some seem to feel the need to do so ad infinitum as if waiting for Maruk to show up and apologize to all on hands and knees....If a guy showed up on these forums as a one time poster to call BI "a bunch of thieves/liars" -pretty sure we all know what would happen.

Just sayin...

[TSAndrey 1]

I understand. Thanks for you loyality and money in the past years. Now take what we throw at you or piss off. We dont care.

That's Bohemia Interactive in year 2013.

:(

Really? That's you how understood his post? Not that they needed to do it, and it will only help the game?

[Alexei Guba 10]

Yes that's how I understand his post, obviously.

But yes we know: Steam is good for you, Steam is the ultimate solution, Steam saves Developer time, Steam makes everyone happy, Steam let even retards use Mods, Steam has Serverbrowser, Steam has DRM, Steam has Offline mode, Steam helps modding, Steam is best, Steam has no problems

All hail Steam, the ultimate solution for all problems we had in all the years!

Until Steam fucks up and then all sitting around with their ultimate solution and look into an empty screen.

But since Steam is so awesome, it will never go down. Never, simply cannot happen right?

One day you will wake up, and then you will hate Steam more then I do now. Go wait and see.

And when that happens I tell you I will laugh my ass off for a week.

Be happy, I'm done here now. As others said it is pointless to discuss with blind consument sheep who believe everything they are told.

[Dwarden 1125]

some of you mention things like

STEAM mess up and no gameplay,

STEAM 'robs you en masse',

STEAM become ' pay fee for daily access nasty $ monster with ransom bat,

STEAM cancels everyone games

STEAM goes bankrupt

STEAM stays offline due to <insert random end of IT / datacenter / company world event>

and you somehow forget the fact that in such case we may just release patch to solve the problem IF it actually arise ...

if you have valid concerns, valid suggestions or valid reasons then we read them and will try address them as much as it's possible from manpower and developers point of view

but blunt claims about 'it is bad' w/o anything else of logic value or common sense added is not going to improve things

p.s. as the person behind STEAM deployment of our titles (since our first time use) I know way more (of NAY or of AYE feats) about STEAM than You can imagine

and yet I'm quite fine with the actual decision

Edited March 2, 2013 by Dwarden

[froggyluv 2136]

and you somehow forget the fact that in such case we may just release patch to solve the problem IF it actually arise ...

Well that should settle that though somehow I don't think it will .... ;)

Edited March 2, 2013 by Dwarden
fixed me to we typo :)

[Alexei Guba 10]

Must return one more time:

Wait a moment! You just told us that Steam is required because it is needed as serverbrowser, correct?

And now you tell us that if Steam goes down you release a patch and all is good. And the then missing server browser? Is then no more needed or what? Your patch then brings your own serverbrowser? Or returns to gamespy which then all of sudden is good enough again?

I maybe get bans for that now but you either dont know what story you tell where - or you are just telling blatant lies.

This shows one more time that the whole "Steam is soo badly needed" is just a stupid excuse. If you can release such a patch why then pissing people off by giving them no choice and not give atleast the single player people such an option?

First:

also, you need server browser if You want play MP and IF we for example decide to remove GameSpy ... or wanna tell me how You obtain the servers to play ? by fedex?

Now:

and you somehow forget the fact that in such case we may just release patch to solve the problem IF it actually arise ...

[Dwarden 1125]

yes, in such case we would need to figure 'solution' ... serious ... thing what if STEAM goes down , everyone affected would need deal with it ...

IF and WHEN it happens ... it's similar to "at March 4th 2013, 20:00 GMT mankind will discover asteroid on confirmed collision course to earth, estimated damage 7000 megaton , hit in next 10 years ...

then we will try deal with it, IF it really happens ... :confused::rolleyes:

I give up to try explain more ...

[jefferspang 2]

some of you mention things like

STEAM mess up and no gameplay,

STEAM 'robs you en masse',

STEAM become ' pay fee for daily access nasty $ monster with ransom bat,

STEAM cancels everyone games

STEAM goes bankrupt

STEAM stays offline due to <insert random end of IT / datacenter / company world event>

and you somehow forget the fact that in such case we may just release patch to solve the problem IF it actually arise ...

if you have valid concerns, valid suggestions or valid reasons then we read them and will try address them as much as it's possible from manpower and developers point of view

but blunt claims about 'it is bad' w/o anything else of logic value or common sense added is not going to improve things

p.s. as the person behind STEAM deployment of our titles (since our first time use) I know way more (of NAY or of AYE feats) about STEAM than You can imagine

and yet I'm quite fine with the actual decision

Hey Dwarden, thank you for taking the time to address some of the communities concern.

However one of the concerns that some addon makers share is the Steam Workshop for mods and addons and how anyone could post any addons and claim it as their own.

I am aware that addon theft already exists but at the moment it's not rampant due to the close cooperation between Armaholic/SIX/BI forums (and other repository). However with Steam Workshop's easier accesssibility, those who steal addons will gain more publicity. My questions are -

Who will moderate ArmA 3's Steam Workshop? Will it be existing ArmA community moderators or Valve employees?

What are Valve's view on stolen addon? (Last I check, gMod's Steam Workshop is full of stolen addons, and even though I know gMod's community is notorious for stolen contents, is this an indication that whoever moderating Steam Workshop doesn't really have the time/effort to curtail this problem?)

That's all for now, thanks for reading through them.

-JP :)

p.s I know that an addon makers only makes content for themselves and they shouldn't care who steals what but it is a fact that the main reason why they quit is lack of motivation stemming from people who don't care about intellectual property rights.

[LordJarhead 1721]

Hey Dwarden, thank you for taking the time to address some of the communities concern.

However one of the concerns that some addon makers share is the Steam Workshop for mods and addons and how anyone could post any addons and claim it as their own.

I am aware that addon theft already exists but at the moment it's not rampant due to the close cooperation between Armaholic/SIX/BI forums (and other repository). However with Steam Workshop's easier accesssibility, those who steal addons will gain more publicity. My questions are -

Who will moderate ArmA 3's Steam Workshop? Will it be existing ArmA community moderators or Valve employees?

What are Valve's view on stolen addon? (Last I check, gMod's Steam Workshop is full of stolen addons, and even though I know gMod's community is notorious for stolen contents, is this an indication that whoever moderating Steam Workshop doesn't really have the time/effort to curtail this problem?)

That's all for now, thanks for reading through them.

-JP :)

p.s I know that an addon makers only makes content for themselves and they shouldn't care who steals what but it is a fact that the main reason why they quit is lack of motivation stemming from people who don't care about intellectual property rights.

Thanks for that post and the questions you brought with. Thats what I think about too. And to your last words: It is not like this, not for for all modders at least. Some get the needed attention to their skills and will maybe even get jobs with mods they could use as their port folio. So everyone who is stealing content is also ruining your "prominence" and the related, future events. It is highly the most important thing to take care about, that modders get the needed collateral for their work and name. Because if that's not given the modder (or at least the most famous ones around here) wont just trust Steamworks and their features, and wont publish their work. And if there's no mod for ArmA, the game gets boring fast. No modding, no sells, no sells no money, no money no Bohemia. Sadly to say, but ArmA NEEDS the modding communities! Its just the way this game is build, its a giant sandbox... and seriously, I see NO advantages in steamworks... I mean, I can get all mods just by typing their name in google^^ I dont need a third party tool to get it...

I just wish that Bohemia would look more for their roots, like Armaholic at least. For several years it was always a trustful and friendly website where you could get any informations about the game, maps, missions, mods, updates and beta patches. They always tried hard and did what ever they need to do to keep the informations coming to those who wanted to get them. And Steamworks... well its like saying "Yah, nice Job Armaholic, we found a new friend to play with. See you...!" Don't get me wrong, I don't want to blame anyone here. I'm just afraid about those things and those communities... thats all.

LJ

Edited March 2, 2013 by LordJarhead

[Hans Ludwig 0]

How could you possibly call someone "..talk down to people like they're complete idiots." and yet include such an obviously condescending rhetorical question at the end?

Also the consumer rights - "out of thin air" as you put it - is the European Union's Court of Justice's Digital Distribution laws with which Valve's Steam platform is in violation of.

I've been playing since the OFP: CWC days and a frequenting these very forums for just as long. If you have been around long as I have you would know what I'm talking about. He always calls someone a "troll", hence why I said he practices the dark art of dehumanizing those he disagrees with. If all else fails, he then results to Plan B, just ban or give them infractions.

I only called him grumpy because a few people over the years that sent me PMs referred to him that way. I figured they knew him a lot better than I did, so I felt it fitting to explain his character.

Instead of discussing why he doesn't like Steam in any substantive detail, he turned the conversation into personal attacks, as usual, even after I gave him advice on how to handle the Steam issue. He clearly views Steam as some evil force in our society and forces him to do evil things, much like Baptist saying we need to prohibit alcohol to prevent infidelity and fornication in our society.

[Dwarden 1125]

Placebo already posted we will keep same strict rules over IP / mod / work theft we use on BIF and other sites (armaholic, moddb) etc...

on the STEAM ... we have the rights to take down such additions from STEAMWORKSHOP, again if it's needed

but one thing should be clear, if you need protect Your IP, always be proactive, others will not do it for You ...

ps about the armhalic vs STEAM case ... I heard that before, how it's going kill OFP.info and how Fileplanet kills both and how modDB kills everyone and so on...

just look at Skyrim, TES nexus hud is still alive and better than ever ... don't think in terms of competition, think in terms of coexistence

Edited March 3, 2013 by Dwarden

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I don't need Steam for Patching, Serverbrowser, adding addons and missions. I wonder what retards there are who can't add a folder on their drive or running an .exe file.

Lucky for everyone else, you're not in charge of things here.

What's your reason for disliking Steam? Didn't you say that you lived in your parents' basement and that somehow prevented you to get/utilise the game on Steam? I could understand if you don't have a constant Net connection - then we do empathise, but this is a negligible percent of users.

Perhaps, you can't afford the title on Steam at official Euro prices -- AFAIK, ArmA II received its regional pricing, so the total cost was a fraction of what we had to pay. In Russia I think it was £10 at most.

But that's no reason to slander the company, or anyone else on the forums for that matter.

P.S. March 5th onward, I hope their Steam-this-Steam-that bullshit stays out of ArmA III section, as they're not customers and have no business there.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Iroquois Pliskin

[jblackrupert 14]

I'd be more concerned about Steam changing hands then going out of business.

EA, Ubisoft, Codemasters....etc weren't always the lying, scheming corporate monsters they are now.

Monopolies are never good, no matter who's running them.

Edited March 3, 2013 by jblackrupert

[W0lle 1050]

P.S. March 5th onward, I hope their Steam-this-Steam-that bullshit stays out of ArmA III section, as they're not customers and have no business there.

Unfortunately, you are not the one who decide what is posted where and who makes what posts. Please stop acting as if you were someone special. Thanks.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I'd be more concerned about Steam changing hands then going out of business.

Great analysis! Gabe running down the toilet a multi-billion business "just because".

They haven't even went public, get a grip on reality.

[Tankbuster 1746]

. we have the rights to take down such additions from STEAMWORKSHOP, again if it's needed

This is good news. I'll believe it fully when I see it.