Steam discussion

[krycek 349]

you somehow ignore the fact, that developers or publishers can simply patch out the STEAM if something 'nasty' happens ...

In a world where big devs/publishers abandon their games after a year(or less) or are actively trying to transform a product into a service with always-on schemes(then pull the plug on the servers when the game doesn't make any money anymore) do you think they actually give a flying crap to make a game older than a few months to work if Steam is in trouble??

Just have a look at the nextgen announcements with Xbox One where big man MS is trying to transform the consoles into a virtual Orwellian environment.

Connecting to net every 24h,games attached only to your account(imagine the gift option on Steam but your buddy will need to pay a big fee to actually play your gift) and no compatibility with the back catalogue(wanna play a game from last year??well tough luck).Now I don't care even a little for consoles,but the same could extend to Steam.

[mr burns 131]

In a world where big devs/publishers abandon their games after a year(or less) or are actively trying to transform a product into a service with always-on schemes(then pull the plug on the servers when the game doesn't make any money anymore) do you think they actually give a flying crap to make a game older than a few months to work if Steam is in trouble??

Bohemia titles? Yes, quite sure.

Other developers? Not so sure.

[PuFu 4591]

Pretty much the above; there's literally nothing inherent to a company preventing it from "selling out", not even BI... it's all about circumstances, decisions based on information about those circumstances, and a willingness to piss off people in the process (see the Steamworks announcement outright stating that they had already known that they were going to upset long-time Arma players but Arma 3 was going to be Steamworks anyway).

care to provide a link towards said announcement?

[chortles 263]

It's only "we expect this will upset some of our fans" but I got "yeah we're going to piss players off but we're doing it anyway because this announcement is literally about us doing it" out of that... heck, even some of the Steam-haters have acknowledged the "better for BI" tone of it while adding "but worse for me".

[TSAndrey 1]

So if it's so easy to patch it out why did you have to push Steam down our throats in a first place is beyond my understanding apart from the advantages as a developing platform. For me as a user . . . Steam has no advantages to offer whatsoever. WTF.

No? What about the friend list, Steamworks, achievements, easier install and etc.

[nettrucker 142]

No? What about the friend list, Steamworks, achievements, easier install and etc.

I had no problems with that since the first OFP game came out. Achievements I could care less. I'm not playing ArmA for achievements. Never had a problem with installing nor patching. So once again for me Steam has no advantage to offer.

[chortles 263]

Bohemia titles? Yes, quite sure.

Other developers? Not so sure.

Pretty much this: BI is way more relevant here than Steam in terms of "how much should we actually be concerned".

you somehow ignore the fact, that developers or publishers can simply patch out the STEAM if something 'nasty' happens ...

Why did you have to say this, I was hoping for "Steamworks" to be a settled issue and instead this is just fuel for the flames... :( At least only nettrucker has complained...

Speaking of which, nettrucker: "advantages as a developing platform"... there, you answered your own question in the process of asking it. :p Personally I'm looking forward to seeing Steam as the future of the Arma franchise!

Edited May 24, 2013 by Chortles

[Dwarden 1124]

@Chortes what you mean? I'm saying that people not realize if something wrong happens, the problematic bit of 'dependency' is possible to patch out

it don't matter if the bit is 'gamespy' or 'steam' or else ... when it become burden and problem, it's fully in hands of developer / publisher to deal with it

[chortles 263]

@Chortes what you mean? I'm saying that people not realize if something wrong happens, the problematic bit of 'dependency' is possible to patch out

I now imagine a horde of forums members DEMANDING that this "patching out of dependency" happen RIGHT NOW NOW NOW NOW... it was funny when it first happened after the Steamworks announcement, now it would just be sad if it happened again. :rolleyes:

I was/am actually looking forward to all future BI games being Steamworks...

[starstreams 0]

-> This <- is the exact kind of BS I was talking about in my post Here.

@ MaxPower. You just told use to move the discussion here in steam discussion, while another mod in another thread told us to move it to Off Topic. Which should it be? If you guys want to repress long time veterans who supported this development $$$ from the beginning, be my guest. They won't get a dime from me or my clan if this is the direction this project is headed.

I've been playing this game since the start of OFP. I voiced my opinion because, like many others, I actually care about what happens to the ArmA project. Shame on me, shame on all of us.

With regard to the need for having Steam for better update integration, that is absurd. The fact is, most serous ArmA clans, (the ones who perpetually $$$ support this development) handle "community" updates on their own. BIS is clearly targeting the masses for profit. I just hope it works to their advantage.

Edited May 28, 2013 by starstreams

[dm 9]

Glad to see we're still going around in circles...

I actually care about what happens to the ArmA project.

And trust me when I say: so do the people who are in charge of it.

I know many of the senior people involved, and I know they are passionate about Arma.

At the same time, they are a business, they HAVE to make profit to be able to experiment and develop. If you don't make money, you can't afford to pay your staff, so you cant make any more games...

I still fail to see where all this "Valve will ruin all the things!" mentality is coming from. BI has not signed over any creative or production rights to Valve or Steam. It is 100% purely a distribution platform. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I agree with DM on this, reading through this thread I can't find a convincing argument against using Steam.

What you should focus on is: How likely is it that the EULA will be used in bad way? There are many predictions of doom but what is the probability that they will happen? Will Valve really decide to pull the plug on gaming one day and why would they do that? Will they really want to upset customers as predicted? I just don't think it would happen, it's not likely. It is not in their interests to do these things.

Valve does have a tough EULA, it's just good business practice though. There is much legal opportunism, political opportunism, paranoia and tin-foil-hatishness in the world. They have a bullet proof EULA so they can sleep at night and not worry about being dragged through the courts for frivolous reasons when the lawyers smell money in some corner of the world. At present Steam is an excellent distribution service and the development and financial benefits to BIS are clear. There is no significant difference to game play either.

If you all love this game so much why try to force the company behind it into a corner where they make less money and have development problems? How can that be good for the future? Under those circumstances employees would probably go elsewhere and you wouldn't have to worry about the EULA as BIS would shut down or slowly starve to death in the cell made for it by this so called community. All this over meaningless small print? Oh grow up!

Edited May 28, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[NoRailgunner 0]

So all is shiny + fluffy as long as you throw money at your favourite game project and don't care about profit deals and consumer rights.... Glad to see fanboys make or continue to make gamedevs and distributers/publishers millionaire! Just follow your addiction - its worth every cent! BI surely will keep their passion about releasing games that will grow finally through years into a final betabuild by work + support of its community!!! Meanwhile BI staff will enjoy life and profit at different places around the world.... YOLO & party hard! ;)

[Maio 293]

So all is shiny + fluffy as long as you throw money at your favourite game project and don't care about profit deals and consumer rights.... Glad to see fanboys make or continue to make gamedevs and distributers/publishers millionaire! Just follow your addiction - its worth every cent! BI surely will keep their passion about releasing games that will grow finally through years into a final betabuild by work + support of its community!!! Meanwhile BI staff will enjoy life and profit at different places around the world.... YOLO & party hard! ;)

Indeed. Voluntarily giving money to developers ( or any other service/product provider) after measuring said product/service to your own standards and expectations and not that of the general population is such an immoral thing to do.

But as you said, YOLO... you gotta spice up your life somehow ;)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Just try to create a hype, do the PR work and hope that X amount of people will throw spent their money naively voluntarily on a game project that is ALPHA/WIP. Of course the price must be somewhat lower so its easier for people just to waste a few bucks here and there.... BI just gone deeper into mainstream to help themselves out of the chaos - created by BI.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

So all is shiny + fluffy as long as you throw money at your favourite game project

Throwing money? What all €24.99 of it? I spend more on toilet paper/tea/coffee in 3 months? Sounds like you have issues, it's not a healthy way to live. You should be happy for people that are successful and do well in life.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Lol no, I'm looking to pay for quality and consistence rather than for (hyped) spin-offs just to herpderp with fanboys about possible "potentials" and what kind of stuff one has to have to enjoy a game in the best way. BI have a history in chaos production, buggy releases and unfinished games. Business decisions can be profitable but is profitable always right? Should profitable be the only and major aim of creating content, making/developing games or series/franchise?? How passionate BI devs really are if the community requested and made stuff for example like disposable AT's launchers or trying to improve the health/armor system since a decade? Guess its more pc to keep calm and to "like" everything....

[starstreams 0]

..They are a business, they HAVE to make profit to be able to experiment and develop.

I totally get that DM, and they sure as heck deserve it. They deserve every bit of it. But as I've said many times here. I would be more then happy to pay for each and every update patch from them at full price just as long as they continued to improve on what is there. There are so many issues I won't even get into with ArmA II, like medic trucks smashing into cars, and your own trucks running over your guys when there's nothing in the way of the road and plenty of space to go around. OFP had better tracking on roads.. What is BIS doing developing a new game when there's so much more to improve on the current master piece? Anyway

Well I won't argue against anyone's point, everyone has their own feelings. And I know I come off as harsh, but the truth is, I have the deepest respect for the developers of BIS. No one else has ever come close to their art and realism IMO.

However, something to think about:

It's always been a challenge recruiting, getting new people to try this game. Once they do they usually all love it. However, when you're trying to convince someone to try something, it becomes much more difficult when they find out they have to create an account at some content service such as steam. Not to mention all the other hassles and time involved installing something new and learning it. Point is, the inclusion of steam makes the process more difficult. On the other hand, I guess BIS's success could go the other way because of steam's huge base of gamers .. to be fair. But then one has to ask, what is this project really about at this stage? Only time will tell.

O how I miss Sudden Strike, ...if only the developers heeded the warnings of the people. Now it's just a memory.

Edited May 28, 2013 by starstreams

[Sealife 22]

Point is, the inclusion of steam makes the process more difficult.

But it makes it more easier so you have no point , the updates are automatic , the installation is easier too

Seems to me you beef is really about Steam not Bis Games but once again , your actual mahooosive rant is backed up by no substance , I've been playing Bis games like many others , game spy lobbies in ofp waiting forever trying to get on she'll.uk servers , then in Arma 1 yoma tool was an improvement , I had a nightmare in Arma 2 with SIX thing and I heard a rumour bis were collaborating to use it for A3 , all respect to the author but I breathed a massive sigh of relief when they went with steam , it's been fantastic .

[starstreams 0]

But it makes it more easier so you have no point , the updates are automatic , the installation is easier too

Seems to me you beef is really about Steam not Bis Games but once again , your actual mahooosive rant is backed up by no substance , I've been playing Bis games like many others , game spy lobbies in ofp waiting forever trying to get on she'll.uk servers , then in Arma 1 yoma tool was an improvement , I had a nightmare in Arma 2 with SIX thing and I heard a rumour bis were collaborating to use it for A3 , all respect to the author but I breathed a massive sigh of relief when they went with steam , it's been fantastic .

The updates are automatic, ok and what was the issue with the old updates posted on the site?

If you like Steam Thromp, you're right, there's not much I can say in your situation. However, I don't see what the issue is with downloading a simple update and applying it. I mean come on. If you're talking about Add-ons' how is steam going to help Clans coordinate their add-ons any different then the wonder tools already out there? I guess it could help if you're one of these people who have trouble copying files in windows. I'm not saying you are. I just don't see the Wow factor in their decision out weighing the negatives associated with steam.

I don't know about you, but I sure don't like getting locked out of my game in places where I don't have an internet connection on them rare occasions when the net goes down and I have noting to do but play singer player. Why would you want some massive service running in the background while the game was running? More things to go wrong. Just think what happens when there's an technical issue with your steam software, or their verification servers malfunction, or someone hacks their system. You just paid for a game you can't play now. Now matter how you look at it, it all complicates the situation. Just read some of the posts out there about steam issues. Your success with steam does noting to rule out the unsuccessful experiences of others.

Here I have an idea that will fix this debate:

Say BIS sold a Steam version and a Non steam version as they've always done. Then guys like you could be happy using the steam version and guys like me can have it my way?

But the developer decided to force everyone to use steam .. why? If I have to explain why, you haven't been around as long as I have.

That's just my view, and you have yours.

Edited May 29, 2013 by starstreams

[dmarkwick 261]

Steam hasn't been too bad, annoying to have to use it and to rely on it, but hey, decision is made. I had my Steam account hijacked a couple of years ago and it took a couple of weeks for Valve to get me it back. Meanwhile some douchebag was happily using my games and logging times & activities I didn't have control over. Cloud saves got borked too. Also, if I wish for more copies of ArmA3 I need more Steam accounts.

I've read the announcements etc and there was nothing about it that made me believe there couldn't have been, at the very least, a Steam AND a Sprocket release. Sprocket was/is a great service.

I agree with the notion that if BIS can change the distribution option(s), then they should :) best all-round release system would be Steam, Sprocket, hard copy. But hey, it's just a wish :)

[nettrucker 142]

Steam hasn't been too bad, annoying to have to use it and to rely on it, but hey, decision is made. I had my Steam account hijacked a couple of years ago and it took a couple of weeks for Valve to get me it back. Meanwhile some douchebag was happily using my games and logging times & activities I didn't have control over. Cloud saves got borked too. Also, if I wish for more copies of ArmA3 I need more Steam accounts.

I've read the announcements etc and there was nothing about it that made me believe there couldn't have been, at the very least, a Steam AND a Sprocket release. Sprocket was/is a great service.

I agree with the notion that if BIS can change the distribution option(s), then they should :) best all-round release system would be Steam, Sprocket, hard copy. But hey, it's just a wish :)

Well Dwarden has written a couple of pages back that they could patch out the Steam dependency if problems should arise. So it seems to be possible but they won't do it.

NIce.

[chortles 263]

So it seems to be possible but they won't do it.

Whew, a conscious and intentional choice then...

Say BIS sold a Steam version and a Non steam version as they've always done. Then guys like you could be happy using the steam version and guys like me can have it my way?

The Steamworks announcement specifically said that having only one version of Arma 3 to support was hugely resource- and time-saving and that in fact having so many versions of Arma 2 was an outright burden that hindered development, which going Steam-exclusive averted for Arma 3; likewise, ready-made functionality was crucial because "Steamworks saves us needed time"... and in the end, the sheer "reach, support and status" of Steam did help make the choice for Steam to be the exclusive choice.

Mind you, the Steamworks announcement said that without going Steamworks "There was a very real chance there would be no Arma 3 this year otherwise", but when your reaction is "Great, I would say please don't develop v3. Why not improve on arma II with v3 enhancements enabled by a mode. and just charge for updates. And fix all the hundreds of AI issues that were never fixed"... it's actually rather amusing looking back to last year when Jay Crowe was joking about Arma 3's changes as "welcome to the late nineties" and Ivan was calling the original OFP a shitty game... :lol: Truthbetold I believe that BI, from bottom to top to bottom, has for almost a year now had a very different idea of "what to do next" than you did...

As for playing offline... the current situation means that there's only digital distribution right now, so you'd have to be online anyway at least until completion of the download and installation to play, after which you can choose to go offline. However, I previously tested disconnecting my computer from the Internet while the game client is running, and it does continue running. :) Moreover, I disconnected my computer from the Internet while logged into the Steam client (in default online mode) and then attempted to run the game -- the Steam client says "NO CONNECTION" but the game client still loaded up and ran. :D Finally, I closed both clients and then re-opened the Steam client; I got the "connection error" screen because I was still (intentionally) disconnected, I clicked the "Start in offline mode" button, the Steam client loaded and said "OFFLINE MODE", and the game client still ran normally -- and I even completed a LAN mission (against AI) while offline. :D

The only noticeable difference besides the obvious lack of online MP that I've noticed is that when disconnected from the Internet, the game client's main menu screen will under the "Intel" window declare "News offline / Welcome to Arma 3 Alpha! The newsfeed provides the latest coverage of updates, content, community news, and more - straight to your game!" Finally I closed the game client, reconnected to the Internet, chose "Go online" for the Steam client (restarted the Steam client), and then upon running the game with the Steam client online, that "Intel" window is replaced with a heading mentioning "SITREP #00013" (the most recent SITREP, from yesterday) with three main points, a link to the full SITREP and a link to the Feedback Tracker. :)

[Sealife 22]

The updates are automatic, ok and what was the issue with the old updates posted on the site?

If you like Steam Thromp, you're right, there's not much I can say in your situation. However, I don't see what the issue is with downloading a simple update and applying it. I mean come on. If you're talking about Add-ons' how is steam going to help Clans coordinate their add-ons any different then the wonder tools already out there? I guess it could help if you're one of these people who have trouble copying files in windows. I'm not saying you are. I just don't see the Wow factor in their decision out weighing the negatives associated with steam.

.............

But can't you see that the negatives are actually not a reality at all , infact what you describe above is ten times more a convoluted method than the process required with steam , if you think bis could continue as a serious business by delaying patches until community media sites hosted mirrors , your obviously blind to the real benefits in there decision as a whole and if I may your actually being very selfish without any valuable argument to undermine BIS decision , furthermore reading your posts , your asking for a worse set up than Steam not a better one .

[Smurf 12]

The Alpha wouldn't be at this pace without the delta patching\Dev Branch thing = we would have a worst game by now. That IS a fact.

You could argue that A2 Beta patches also works and do not need any middleware, but Steam make it so much easier that more people are willing to join and test it, more people at this stage is always good. Auto patching (not beta\test branch) is also a more than welcome "luxury". If you only play one game, it's easy to track it and keep it updated. Extend that list to 5, 10 or even more that the avarage gamer maitain installed and you have a logistic nightmare. Move forward people.

Offline mode were kind of confusing some years ago, nowadays I have no problem at all with it, same goes for Steam's client wich is more stable than ever and is practically transparent by now. "I don't need\use its features, it's useless" Good for you! I barely use anything but the Friend List. The community HUD could be something that was missing for this game in particular, he community made guides (and in ArmA you need it, for ACE\ACRE or mission editing for example) alone would be enough, but there is more!

I own my account for, at least, 6 years now and never had any problems with hijacking, lack off support, problems with money, removal of games from my list and whatever else you once read that a friend of a guy on a forum had, but I don't do stupd shit with it.

Also, I don't see one of the responsables of the PC growing forces on the last few years going away anytime soon. Steam is the Google of gamming BUT it have some competition to maintain Valve on their toes. Evil corporate thing behind it? Could be but I really don't believe it (you can make chunck loads of money without being "bad"), and both (Google, Steam) offer so much for nothing that I don't care.

All in all, I see this resistance to Steam as, wouldn't say irrational because every one has its reasons, but unnecessary.