Steam discussion

[mrcash2009 0]

Yes. You are free to choose whether or not you want Arma the way the developers are providing it. If you don't want steam, your choice is to not have Arma 3.

So those that point out the loss of a choice arent wrong are they especially if they only ever really wanted a single game, you just stated this yourself, thanks for the clarification this quote should be in a sticky. You must agree to have a shop permanently installed and EULA agreed too otherwise you cant play a simulator you have liked for years .. thats actually the point ... steam is the focus.

I fail to see where this "we must have 46934394 versions to suit all our needs" opinion has come from?

Choice.

And your also exaggerating. BTW your justification about using BI's prior ways of doing things showing how Steam is a saviour, ever thought that BI "could" have dont it a better way prior anyway? It might just be that they could have tried to make it less complex, we have no say in that either.

You don't go to the pub and complain that you wont buy this beer because it comes in a glass and not a plastic bag.

You choose a different pub.

You don't go to a car dealership and say that you'll buy this car, but only if the windscreen is replaced with wire mesh.

You choose a different car dealer.

You don't buy bread and complain it comes in a plastic or paper bag instead of a metal tin.

You choose a different shop.

You always talk in terms of Arma/Steam .. this is a "Steam" discussion, so the justification is always patches and updates ... fine, good for quick deployment and good for BI ... but, as I stated clearly Steam isnt JUST that, it has EULA to agree too (that can change), is one big advert for its own product and shop and also when people start to use it decide to stick with it (as its entire thing is shoved under your nose to play a game) there is the data and purchase data and financial aspect also, but it seems that gets forgotten.

Im not crying about steam for arma3, im just stating views about "steam" as a package and client overall and the idea that has it ever been a good thing to put all your eggs in one basket that can change at any time, both financial, technical, business level and so on.

Sorry DM you have good points but you cannot argue the choice factor, no one can.

Edited May 31, 2013 by mrcash2009

[dm 9]

You choose a different pub.

You choose a different car dealer.

You choose a different shop.

And so, you must choose a different product also.

Sorry DM you have good points but you cannot argue the choice factor, no one can.

I can, and I will. For the simple reason that BI is the provider of the choices. And they have chosen to do only steam. Ergo, your choice is: Arma 3 + Steam OR no Arma 3.

Simple as that.

[Kemeros 1]

I will give a great example of what DM is saying:

I hate EA, i don't want Origin installed on my pc. I'd like to play Battlefield 3 and Deadspace 3(Note: I don't care if you hate those games). So what are my choices? I have 4:

- Whine forever and get laughed at for wasting my time and my life.

- Step on my principles ans install the damn thing.

- Get the game illegally and accept the consequences(law, no MP, etc.).

- Don't play the game and play something else.

I went with #4. I did not install Origin and i did not play the 2 games i'd like to play. So here you go my friends, make your choice. If you hate valve or steam... time to choose #4 and move along. Or you can step on your principles, nothing wrong with that if you want the game badly enough. Just accept you will have something you don't like on your pc.

[pvt_ryan 10]

I hate Steam unequivocally. 'Nuff said. Hopefully enough people posting in this thread will actually play into BIS' future decision process.

[nettrucker 142]

I hate Steam unequivocally. 'Nuff said. Hopefully enough people posting in this thread will actually play into BIS' future decision process.

No it won't . . . a decision has been made. You can choose ArmA 3 & Steam or no ArmA 3. That's it.

[Sealife 22]

You always talk in terms of Arma/Steam .. this is a "Steam" discussion, so the justification is always patches and updates ... fine, good for quick deployment and good for BI ... but, as I stated clearly Steam isnt JUST that, it has EULA to agree too (that can change), is one big advert for its own product and shop and also when people start to use it decide to stick with it (as its entire thing is shoved under your nose to play a game) there is the data and purchase data and financial aspect also, but it seems that gets forgotten.

Im not crying about steam for arma3, im just stating views about "steam" as a package and client overall and the idea that has it ever been a good thing to put all your eggs in one basket that can change at any time, both financial, technical, business level and so on.

But your trying to base a case for freedom of choice where speculation and scaremongering are used as facts , all you are doing is repeating google based scare stories and anti corporate rhetoric to convince 100mlion people that 20 people have been wronged

That's life and if life was tailored to ensure the twenty were never wronged we would still be in the caves

Facts are steam worked for BIS and Arma3 all your Rhetoric is fiction or speculation

Choices are as stated , to play Arma 3 you must also accept the delivery method , sometimes we get frustrated with arctic trucks on the motorway but we don't mind buying the food in the supermarket that it's bringing.

[mrcash2009 0]

I can, and I will. For the simple reason that BI is the provider of the choices. And they have chosen to do only steam. Ergo, your choice is: Arma 3 + Steam OR no Arma 3.

Yes THEY did, not me, I had no choice.

Will you stop banging on about BI/Steam anyway... Im talking about steam itself and any software house, I already said im not crying about BI's choices. Point is I hope all "providers" have one foot in the steam door and one out of it, all eggs in one basket and so on. You still mention choices ... there arent any, none have been "provided", and you said that yourself .. im lost.

But your trying to base a case for freedom of choice where speculation and scaremongering are used as facts

So its a good thing to put all your eggs into one basket no questions asked? Not great business sense, laughable .. "scaremongering" ... where on earth have I posted about scaring anyone ... dear me. Facts are that to get a game you need steam and all it stands for and that is a fact .. where isnt it?

, all you are doing is repeating google based scare stories and anti corporate rhetoric to convince 100mlion people that 20 people have been wronged

That's life and if life was tailored to ensure the twenty were never wronged we would still be in the caves

You missed the bit I mentioned about not crying about BI decision, im not persuading anyone im sure you have a mind of your own, and as this is a debate about "steam" not "bi" then its valid. Also pulling stats out isnt exactly going to be correct, just highlighting who uses steam does not take into account those that didn't want to but did just to get 1 game, or those that haven't got it becuase they dont want it or using this thread as some kind of survey guide.

Facts are steam worked for BIS and Arma3 all your Rhetoric is fiction or speculation

What your actually saying, if we ever get to a stage that steam is the only choice to get games thats fine, nothing can ever go wrong or change, I dont know about you but I dont do 100 percents on anything, between you and the data there is allot in between ... which is more of a fiction? And yet again you all seem to stick to the BI/Steam angle... that thread was in the Arma3 general section, this was off-topic as it was about steam .. the nuts & bolts full package of steam, defending BI wasn't what this thread was for last time I checked.

Choices are as stated , to play Arma 3 you must also accept the delivery method , sometimes we get frustrated with Arctic trucks on the motorway but we don't mind buying the food in the supermarket that it's bringing.

That isn't a choice, well ... do or dont ... yes, very nice. So far everyone has clearly stated "you have no choice" (customers/consumers purchase choice)... so it answers itself, is it so wrong to highlight that "fact"? Amazing.

- Don't play the game and play something else.

I went with #4. I did not install Origin and i did not play the 2 games i'd like to play. So here you go my friends, make your choice. If you hate valve or steam... time to choose #4 and move along.

That isnt a purchase choice and you know that, if people who say this is the actual consumer choice and move along if you dont like that then your accepting this as ok, which clearly in your example you were not happy about, it wasn't the data of the game you didn't want and therein lies the entire point.

Also if people want to post about "rhetoric" ... its those that shove "hate" in everything that make me smile the most, I dont hate steam, just dont agree with flocking to one source more and more.

Edited May 31, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Sealife 22]

Sorry but you are speculating at the point you won't or simply not prepared to give a factual based business case

Your playing a moral card in a financial arena

You simply cannot expect to win , your energy needs to focus on alternative business case that is factual and well presented , you just wrote 1000 + words but within are a few sentence that are factual

You don't like steam

Bis chose Steam

The rest is an ill presented wishy washy fictional unproven speculation at best.

[mrcash2009 0]

Sorry but you are speculating at the point you won't or simply not prepared to give a factual based business case

Your playing a moral card in a financial arena

You simply cannot expect to win , your energy needs to focus on alternative business case that is factual and well presented , you just wrote 1000 + words but within are a few sentence that are factual

You don't like steam

Bis chose Steam

The rest is an ill presented wishy washy fictional unproven speculation at best.

Hang on ... the judge and jury court case crowed have arrived again, let me consult my legal advisers. Calm down my friend this is a discussion forum about steam overall, presenting some kind of "case" wont change anything and isnt even the point esp with BI ... and how many more times do I have to stress this isnt about BI, I state the facts of putting all eggs in one basket, its not good practice to do so and not competitive, those are facts in anything.

The rest is an ill presented wishy washy fictional unproven speculation at best.

Its fiction that moving into a centralised controlled situation in any situation big or small and this example is a good thing for all? Its not and is less of a choice, facts.

You simply cannot expect to win

People who want to "win" something (let alone expect too) are normally people who just want to argue, I dont win anything for posting here, its a point of view, take it or leave it. Id dont dislike steam absolutely (I dont know how many times I need to repeat myself about that) I just dont like the notion of dominance and one source for something that I have never liked. What I do like is certain games, not a shop stuck on my drive, thats what i dont like & in this case it happens to be steam in a discussion thread regarding it.

Edited May 31, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Sealife 22]

so we are now saying its not about choice for you but your concerns for BIS as a buisness ?

I feel we are at least narrwoing it down what it is you wish to debate but again my view is broken down to the simple FACTS

You dont like steam but are unwilling to present a factual based reason and a Business case for the alternative.

The reason BIS is Mentioned is Because BIS have chosen the Model you are trying to Demonise and well after all BIS have been an open and honsest developer so why not debate with Facts rather than speculate about companies we know nothing about ?

[mrcash2009 0]

so we are now saying its not about choice for you but your concerns for BIS as a buisness ?

No, read my posts again you read it wrong stop thinking about BI only, im not. I am thinking about the trend of many moving the same way which leads the way I was describing.

I feel we are at least narrwoing it down what it is you wish to debate but again my view is broken down to the simple FACTS

So is mine, less choice I can post in 1000 times if you want :)

You dont like steam but are unwilling to present a factual based reason and a Business case for the alternative.

I dont like dominance of 1 source this example is steam, all the good things about steam have been stated clearly so I dont need to repeat it and I dont disagree with it. Alternative, I know ..... a choice ... sorry I cant help it. Heres one, a "steam lite" app if anything they should think about people who like "1" game and dont want "all of steam" ... that's some middle ground, seems most like steam for everything, some want "a game and its downloads" but you cant have that, you have all or nothing.

The other alternative is back to before and that's all been said already.

Also why is it that anyone who is free to post what they dont like about it suddenly having to act as a company owner and corperate business knowhow spokes person, I am a purchaser of goods that's all that is needed. I didnt see pre Steam anyone who didnt like the "nightmare" it was before steam ever being hounded to give out blue prints of their business model like some kind of episode of dragons den becuase they voiced a dislike of it.

The reason BIS is Mentioned is Because BIS have chosen the Model you are trying to Demonise and well after all BIS have been an open and honsest developer so why not debate with Facts rather than speculate about companies we know nothing about ?

Demonise? I think you have gone too far on that, I have said what I dont like about it, I think we are all ok to do that without going that far. I have stated the facts, centralising and less choice and the trend late down the line as other follow the same "all in bed with steam". You dont need to know anything about other companies, they are just the same doing what BI have and others before them, pretty simple without always defending BI ... its the "STEAM discussion thread".

Edited May 31, 2013 by mrcash2009

[k0rd 3]

Hi mrcash,

I understand what you are saying regarding putting all the eggs in steam's basket.

I'm wondering if you have the same issue with many video games being dependent on a particular operating system (in most cases, windows). Whether we like it or not, a lot of software-based technology is moving to this kind of sales/distribution platform. Newer versions of windows have an embedded store, as do most cellular phones and television content providers.

Would I rather have a physical disc? A few years ago I might have said "yes", but I've come to really appreciate not having to keep track and care of a huge physical software library. If something happened to steam, I'd be upset, sure.. but I could think of a lot of other businesses that I completely rely on too. I can understand not having confidence in a corporation, but I have confidence in steam and it has been a reliable service. I've never had a problem with them and own my fair share of steam games.

You can speak with your wallet and not purchase steam-only games if you want to, but I would seriously consider where to draw the line. This kind of distribution method isn't going anywhere, it has proven its worth in the industry, and earned its trust among consumers. Your position is valid, but its going to put you in an uncomfortable place if you try to apply it to your technology purchases in the future.

[mrcash2009 0]

Your position is valid, but its going to put you in an uncomfortable place if you try to apply it to your technology purchases in the future.

Just stating a clear point that is it a future thats good for all with less choice? Windows examples and other dominance can be used but we still have a "choice" where to actually purchase windows :)

I was speak in terms of stores/shopping/items/source the "shop" that is steam side is forced in, when really your just wanting to pay for the game data. Thats the area the most for me. If someone said you can get say Arma3 and a small app to grab the updates (sprocket style) it still fits all justifications of distribution, so the whole - everything steam has to offer under a sign up agreement between it or bust isn't what I like im not paying for that, put up with, deal with it ... yes of course, I dont like it though.

Edited May 31, 2013 by mrcash2009

[k0rd 3]

Windows examples and other dominance can be used but we still have a "choice" where to actually purchase windows :)

but windows has an embedded store, ergo windows is the "steam" in this analogy, not the product.

[Macser_old 0]

I don't understand what all the arguing is about.What exactly are we "winning"?

You dont like steam but are unwilling to present a factual based reason and a Business case for the alternative.

They aren't required to explain anything.Nor should they.BIS has made their choice.

As is their prerogative.Customers will make theirs.The reasons are irrelevant.

The people who don't want the Steam client on their machines are annoyed

that it's being pushed at them.They're simply expressing that.They have no reason

whatsoever to be apologetic about it.

There's no point in any more debate about this subject,if the business decision has already been made.

:)

[mrcash2009 0]

There's no point in any more debate about this subject,if the business decision has already been made.

Theres always room for it becuase its not going anywhere and also this is a steam discussion thread not BI/steam only :)

[Sniperwolf572 758]

So its a good thing to put all your eggs into one basket no questions asked?

Yes it is if the eggs are Arma and the basket is Steam, the developers are hens, BI is the farmer, foxes are pirates, households are customers and the roads are the internet:

- You don't have to worry about developing and maintaining 5 different eggs with 5 different egg-shells to various baskets because of different anti-fox measures required by the basket providers

- You don't have to make sure each basket has your best egg, there's one basket, you work on having the best egg in it

- You don't have to be forced by 10 other basket providers to put different colored eggs in their baskets to draw attention to the egg in their basket

- The hens don't have to worry about baskets, it's all the same basket, the basket and the basket-manager will deal with it, hens do what hens are best at and develop good eggs

- Hens can concentrate on making eggs good instead of making eggs of different colors and different egg shells

- The basket has such features as extra padding, fox deterrent, etc. which eclipse other baskets

- The basket provider will deal with transport of the eggs, making sure you have enough of them to satisfy the demand (Sprocket-basket, while it was merely selling coupons for the eggs that will be delivered by the Steam-basket failed here, remember?)

The downside as you say is:

- Some households like other baskets and hate the basket the farmer chose for various reasons, some valid, some silly and some because they don't know any better and will believe anything anyone says about the basket without trying it themselves

- Some households don't have developed roadways where basket delivery trucks can reach them at full speed

- Some households have NO roadways

- Some households live across a drawbridge which means sometimes, when the drawbridge breaks, they can't get the eggs and will have to eat something else in case they didn't store enough eggs to eat while the bridge is being fixed

In the end, software is not an egg, if the basket fails the egg will be fine and the farmer and the basket provider has a good reputation so the household doesn't have to worry that it will be labeled as fox.

Farmer always has the master-template for the egg and can do with it what he wishes.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Sniperwolf572

[chortles 263]

Windows examples and other dominance can be used but we still have a "choice" where to actually purchase windows :)

What you don't seem to understand is that that's Steamworks too, "we still have a "choice" where to actually purchase" Arma 3. :)

There was quite the amount of confusion when the Steamworks announcement was made, I guess because some forums members mistakenly believed that Arma 3 could only be bought through the Steam Storefront, but that's not true.

[andersson 285]

I bought arma3 through sprocket. I dont need to be online after activating the game through steam.

I dont care about steam and I dont have to care about steam. I just start arma3 and if need be I can let steam update arma3 automagicly for me.

After Dwardens answer a few pages back I'm not worried for a possible steam-going-out-of-business either.

I almost hated steam but as I had to choose to play arma3 or not I installed it. It was no drama.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I bought arma3 through sprocket. I dont need to be online after activating the game through steam.

I dont care about steam and I dont have to care about steam. I just start arma3 and if need be I can let steam update arma3 automagicly for me.

After Dwardens answer a few pages back I'm not worried for a possible steam-going-out-of-business either.

I almost hated steam but as I had to choose to play arma3 or not I installed it. It was no drama.

That's basically what i think too.

[mrcash2009 0]

but windows has an embedded store, ergo windows is the "steam" in this analogy, not the product.

Windows would be the product, becuase im talking about a game being the product and a store to purchase from ... otherwise we will disappear into a never ending infinite enigma paradox and loose our minds :)

There was quite the amount of confusion when the Steamworks announcement was made, I guess because some forums members mistakenly believed that Arma 3 could only be bought through the Steam Storefront, but that's not true.

I know I saw the thread about how to purchase, for example not buying via steam, which in all eventuality is something to do to not fully fund steam if you dont like it so much. I was talking in general about what steam is that you dont pay for (or want to pay for especially for one game) and still get. But again that's BI/steam ... ultimately steam gets a nice slab of it and its client in most places others dont and so I dont always see that as good, just my view.

@Sniperwolf - the analogy overload :) (I must think of a car one next to mix it up a little) made me skim read to be honest looks funny but got lost but spotted the end ...

Farmer always has the master-template for the egg and can do with it what he wishes.

And if they all follow suit you get lack of choice ... still comes back to what I said right at the start.

I think it might be best to point out that I dont actually have issue with users of steam like some may do, I dont hate it either as I have said too, I see the benefits like people have made clear as well, just dont like the trend of late.

Edited May 31, 2013 by mrcash2009

[starstreams 0]

If anything, it has made getting (and keeping up-to-date) Arma much easier

No, installing a retail CD from a box is easier. BIS has been around for over 10 year, they can't produce a box or a simple digital download without some 3rd party? You're missing the point.

One digital download hosted off the BIS site, end of story. How do you keep slipping Steam into the picture as though it's a fix to a problem. The problem is that BIS is trying to target all these outfits. If they couldn't come up with the cost to host and image off their page after all this years, I don't know what to say other than it's sad. If there's something wrong with the game, you put patches out to address the issues. And if people can't figure out how to download an update and install it, they should pick another game to play, it's not for kids. hows that for a choice.

Because (and if you've been around as long as you keep saying you have, you'd know) they are unable to secure a publishing deal that suits them with a large enough publisher to handle global distribution.

So they're not out for the passion anymore, but the larger publishing it sounds like. This is how the beginning of the end starts when things go commercial. And that is what I mean when I say I've been around. I've seen this trend happen, so you can discredit, or post your LOL all you want. It doesn't change the facts. I'm not saying I've been around and know everything with that remark. Just what I've seen happen to great games when they starting getting larger. The game doesn't need a large publisher, because it's a great game. You're missing my point. If a music CD sucks, you don't look for a larger record company to push it. If it's good it will spread by word of mouth. ArmA is great and does not need to be pushed. It needs to be keep real and stand for the principles that made us follow it.

Steam, being a global distributor, removes all that bullshit, and you're left with a single - clean - version to manage.

Thats exactly what they are doing... With Steam. ;)

No, they added more bullshit for me.

Get steam out of the picture.

Like many others have said, when you agree to an EULA for a service like this, the rules can change quick, and they always do. Another point you're missing is that, not everyone wants to install marketing junk on their system. It's a privacy concern for some.

Yes. You are free to choose whether or not you want Arma the way the developers are providing it.

If you don't want steam, your choice is to not have Arma 3.

Well no disrespect, but that's a pretty foolish comeback since it's not really a choice, it's a pointless remark.

So if that's the only choice, I've made mine, and so have the other 12 people in my clan. You're right, it's very simple. Save my money for something else.

Edited May 31, 2013 by starstreams

[mrcash2009 0]

Like many others have said, when you agree to an EULA for a service like this, the rules can change quick, and they always do. Another point you're missing is that, not ever wants to install marketing junk on their system. It's a privacy concern for some.

Hang on thats idle speculation and scaremongering! :) .. Apparently. I guess the next stage is paranoid, and then also "alarmist", although Im personally joking here.

[k0rd 3]

Windows would be the product, becuase im talking about a game being the product and a store to purchase from ... otherwise we will disappear into a never ending infinite enigma paradox and loose our minds :)

Negative, sir! Windows is required for you to play (many) PC games, and it includes an embedded store. This was the context of my contribution to the discussion. The question being, do you draw the line at steam, or at any dependency of the software, so long as it has an embedded store?

I also wonder if you never use modern cell phones, cable/satellite television, and other amenities based on the same criteria?

[Sealife 22]

Hang on thats idle speculation and scaremongering! :) .. Apparently. I guess the next stage is paranoid, and then also "alarmist", although Im personally joking here.

I might also point out you are misinterpreting and also strengthening the idea that your looking for a result by entering this discussion , I still see less factual based discussion from yourself and now not for the first time you have added mockery disguised as selfish humour

I like steam and it does a good job for Bis I also like Origin and I guess that's the end if my contribution to this discussion