AI Improvement

[jake_krieger 10]

If a modder is able to mod the AI on the fly and deliver a good artificial intelligence that works in almost all missions flawlessly , why couldn´t Bohemia do it ?

I don´t care how much work Bohemia needs to make the AI at least as good as the ASR AI Mod ,

if they ignore this and don´t take initiative they will have a worse game and disappoint us and especially the games journalists.

I foresee if they don´t make the AI better they will never get a 80%+ review.

[instagoat 133]

Why can`t BIS use some of the AI already created by modders?

TPWCAS fixes so the AI take cover and/or run away when supressed.

ASR AI makes the AI take cover behind corners, bushes, trees and on..

SLX makes the AI drag team mates to safe areas so they can heal.

All of these are also performance hogs. Running OA with all of those together made my fps drop by an additional ten for every ten fps lost to AI to begin with. Plus, I am not sure that the changes these mods make are objective. The only thing I got from ASR was less precise (and thus easy to kill AI), and occasionally the AI topping off their ammunition. I cannot remember the last time I got shot in Operation Arrowhead while not doing something incredibly dumb.

Scripted addons are fine for those who like them, but I´d rather get everything in one neat package. Preferrably one that does not kill performance as the AI does now, while delivering the core features we should expect of such an AI (which is -tons- of things to begin with, considering what the AI needs to be able to do in Arma.)

The mods make the AI different and for some people, subjectively more realistic.

But these changes are largely cosmetic, and/or gamebreaking. Especially when you combined ASR with stuff like ACE, getting shot was turning into a chore when playing the game "properly".

[rasdenfasden 12]

A weird problem I seem to have found with the AI in Arma 3 is that they have incredible trouble with using lead in their aiming (at least at close ranges). Currently you can run circles around a bot as he tries to shoot you and he won't hit you once.

[chrisb 196]

The mix of ai I use and how they are mixed is certainly not broken or a fps/performance burden.

The standard bearers for ai behaviour and tactics are GL4 & SLX.

Zeus and TPWC ai/los is also a good choice, if you want better ai.

AI behaviour has not come on much since arma was released, standard BIS ai that is. In looks and movement yes, but behaviour, no.

But a good mix of modded ai, is a completely different game, very satisfying, certainly for modern warfare tactics.

AI an FPS burden, yes if you want large missions of over say +250ai, then maybe.

Broken! no, good mission design using, it has to be said, a GL4 format is essential, for me anyway, testing is a must do and continue to do..

Smaller more compact missions should give better ai performance all around.

Large scale warfare and your not going to notice ai behaviour that much anyway, not working with ai that intimately. In smaller missions with coop etc, then you notice, a lot, so you work to change that..

Arma was taken and given a new direction with PR and many other groups either larger/smaller, using they’re own slant on the game, slant being provided by mod/addons, some in-house some from the wider community.

This is a good thing on the whole, our group did the same, with our smaller mission type, design and format it is not standard arma by any means. Its an ai enhanced format, because we feel the ai is the most important element.

But that’s the beauty of this series, it gives us that possibility, but when you want a new slant on the game you have to test exhaustively for it to suit the type of game-play you want/need.

But how you want to play the game is down to you or the group your part of, its an open area, you know you’ve hit the right format when your more or less completely satisfied with your game, which I am, with Arma and Arma2 that is/was.

But of course its all subjective, however you play and how far your satisfied, with your game. But if certain instances are shown to work, then they no longer are subjective, they are there to be seen, how you yourself interpret that or indeed want to interpret that may be subjective. If its tested and shown to work, then that’s a different thing.

I was so disappointed with A3 where ai is concerned, more so because I know the main mods or parts of mods needed to get really good ai behaviour will not get ported over from A2, many of the makers have moved on it seems. That’s why its so disappointing to me, there seems to be no great future for ai in the series, if the ones in the Alpha are to go by, maybe they’ll improve, wait and see. But great game-play will always be there for our group, just means returning to play using our set method in Arma 2. In one sence its helped, A3 coming along, fewer game tweaks mod/addons etc, will be made for A2, so less testing and tweaking is needed. Play more test and tweak less, A2 wise.

Arma 3, well we will see, may not live upto its older brother in modded ai terms.. But could be a fun factor game anyway, plus somewhere to sightsee.:D

[chortles 263]

I believe that the point being made by InstaGoat was that wanting SLX or GL4 as default is imposing a narrower vision of Arma as the default... though, frankly, if you read InstaGoat's post-Gamescom reports you should have had really, really low expectations of Arma 3 AI considering what devs apparently told InstaGoat...

[-Coulum- 35]

Scripted addons are fine for those who like them, but I´d rather get everything in one neat package. Preferrably one that does not kill performance as the AI does now, while delivering the core features we should expect of such an AI (which is -tons- of things to begin with, considering what the AI needs to be able to do in Arma.)

Agreed. I won't be touching any ai mods or mods in general until the full game comes out. And I wouldn't be very happy if BIS just slapped on all the great ai mods from arma 2 in arma 3. They all feel very forced and unnatural at some point or another. Its hard to describe but there is something that I just don't like about mods.

The best analogy I can think of is sculpting. when BIS makes the vanilla ai it is like sculpting a single wad of clay. You keep the clay as one piece and mold it into shape. the results are smooth and sturdy. When you make ai mods its like you are now taking the hardened sculpture and slapping extra clay onto it or hacking pieces off it off. Sure there is extra functionality, but it isn't as smooth or study and there are now gaps and visible seems. Its just not the same. I know its a pretty poor analogy but its the best I can think of that demonstrates my feelings for ai mods.

[^Th0mas^ 10]

The mix of ai I use and how they are mixed is certainly not broken or a fps/performance burden.

The standard bearers for ai behaviour and tactics are GL4 & SLX.

Zeus and TPWC ai/los is also a good choice, if you want better ai.

AI behaviour has not come on much since arma was released, standard BIS ai that is. In looks and movement yes, but behaviour, no.

But a good mix of modded ai, is a completely different game, very satisfying, certainly for modern warfare tactics.

AI an FPS burden, yes if you want large missions of over say +250ai, then maybe.

Broken! no, good mission design using, it has to be said, a GL4 format is essential, for me anyway, testing is a must do and continue to do..

Smaller more compact missions should give better ai performance all around.

Large scale warfare and your not going to notice ai behaviour that much anyway, not working with ai that intimately. In smaller missions with coop etc, then you notice, a lot, so you work to change that..

Arma was taken and given a new direction with PR and many other groups either larger/smaller, using they’re own slant on the game, slant being provided by mod/addons, some in-house some from the wider community.

This is a good thing on the whole, our group did the same, with our smaller mission type, design and format it is not standard arma by any means. Its an ai enhanced format, because we feel the ai is the most important element.

But that’s the beauty of this series, it gives us that possibility, but when you want a new slant on the game you have to test exhaustively for it to suit the type of game-play you want/need.

But how you want to play the game is down to you or the group your part of, its an open area, you know you’ve hit the right format when your more or less completely satisfied with your game, which I am, with Arma and Arma2 that is/was.

But of course its all subjective, however you play and how far your satisfied, with your game. But if certain instances are shown to work, then they no longer are subjective, they are there to be seen, how you yourself interpret that or indeed want to interpret that may be subjective. If its tested and shown to work, then that’s a different thing.

I was so disappointed with A3 where ai is concerned, more so because I know the main mods or parts of mods needed to get really good ai behaviour will not get ported over from A2, many of the makers have moved on it seems. That’s why its so disappointing to me, there seems to be no great future for ai in the series, if the ones in the Alpha are to go by, maybe they’ll improve, wait and see. But great game-play will always be there for our group, just means returning to play using our set method in Arma 2. In one sence its helped, A3 coming along, fewer game tweaks mod/addons etc, will be made for A2, so less testing and tweaking is needed. Play more test and tweak less, A2 wise.

Arma 3, well we will see, may not live upto its older brother in modded ai terms.. But could be a fun factor game anyway, plus somewhere to sightsee.:D

Yes, if BIS took the best from these mods and combined them to any official, the problem would be solved. Really, why arent they doing this? So we can report the bad ai so they can fix it, but they cant use good ai created by modders?

[dmarkwick 261]

Yes, if BIS took the best from these mods and combined them to any official, the problem would be solved. Really, why arent they doing this? So we can report the bad ai so they can fix it, but they cant use good ai created by modders?

Well two reasons I suspect. The first one has already been mentioned: performance and application. The modders' solutions do not involve engine changes which BIS are concerned with. The AI comes from there first, even the modded AI routines come secondary to the engine AI.

Second, the AI as perceived by BIS has to work with BIS created content, which means the campaign and other supplied missions. As the campaign is a carefully constructed feature arbitrary changes to AI can have drastic effects.

[Rydygier 1309]

Partial solution could be implementation AI enhancements in modular way. So there is basic AI, supposed to work flawless with official campaign/missions/content with planned performance, and variety of optional modules, perhaps additionally customizable/tweakable, that will enhance certain aspects of AI for the cost of some bigger CPU load, or at least one, summary AI expansion module. Main difference between such solution and current vanilla AI + AI mods would be, that such module(s) would come from same people, that made basic AI, from "official source", what should ensure better compatibility/cooperation with basic AI and reliability, as probably no one knows Arma's AI specificity, limitations and possibilities better than it's creators.

I can even imagine nice & easy visual AI routines constructor/wizard, with intuitive GUI, something like FSM editor, but with automatically handled scripting side, more like Lego with pre-made, but customizable conditions and actions blocks with option to add custom new ones blocks... Such self-made routines could be saved in some form and applied to the chosen units or to all units. This way mission maker could keep much deeper control over AI in his mission without need of any direct scripting or calling for help on scripting sub-forum (of course helping is a pleasure, but more efficient would be, if mission maker could do usually with AI whatever he wants on his own). Has long been known, that there is some kind of precipice between scripters and mission makers. There is too few "bridges" between these two specialities, such wizard could become one of them.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Rydygier

[chortles 263]

Besides what I've already said, that for legal reasons BI would basically have to hire out all of these modders... so no, "they cant use good ai created by modders".

Notice how with most shooter campaigns the AI are way more of artificial than intelligence? That is because, as DMarkwick points out, "the campaign is a carefully constructed feature" and "arbitrary changes to AI can have drastic effects", especially when the AI is presumably the same as that used in non-campaign SP missions and in co-op when neither are using mods. That is to say, "closer to true" AI is so, so much less predictable and potentially frustrating for both developers and gamers-who-get-more-of-a-sense-out-of-progression-with-story (and power fantasy) than with "oh hey I overcame a serious challenge"*... from this perspective, why should a developer not go the easier, quicker route? That developer has a deadline, a boss, and a salary on the line...

For this "sense of authenticity" that certain people demand, therefore, BI has had to make the sacrifice that AI development is an outright burden... and when they are rumored to have an as-yet incomplete understanding of the AI as it already exists, "taking the best from these mods" would only compound that burden.

probably no one knows Arma's AI specificity, limitations and possibilities better than it's creators.

After what InstaGoat said on the forums after Gamescom 2012, I am not nearly so sure that this is true... my expectations for the AI had been rock-bottom ever since.

* Think of how some people play power fantasy games specifically to avoid being challenged because of a sense that they already get enough of that outside of video games...

[dnk 13]

What did InstaGoat say?

The biggest fixes the AI have needed since A2 are:

1. not lying on the floor of a house looking at a wall for hours on end when an enemy is known in its direction

2. being able to actually, you know, look around themselves regularly

3. getting suppressed

The rest is nice extras, but just having a solid base of that would help a lot with missions, especially the more sandbox-style ones like Insurgency or Domi. How hard are these 3 things? The pathfinding's been well improved (though at what cost?), I think, and other nice changes have been made, but these 3 basic "stupids" are still there and still ruining an otherwise stellar (by most gaming standards, I think) dynamic infantry AI system. Fixing them would erase a LARGE part of the immersion-killing (and challenge-killing) idiocy that you see too often, which mission makers can't really fix either.

[bad benson 1733]

1. not lying on the floor of a house looking at a wall for hours on end when an enemy is known in its direction

2. being able to actually, you know, look around themselves regularly

3. getting suppressed

4. if they "know" that someone is inside a house very close to them they should go inside and check all building positions. i've been shooting at big groups of AI picking them off from windows for a while without them ever trying to flank and come inside to kill me.

at least one guy of a squad should do that. it could be limited to avoid lemming behaviour due to nonexistent indoor path finding though. that is just a small feature of several AI mods that if implemented would totally change the experience. this is even more frustrating with now almost every house being enterable.

5. proper gunshot sound recognition.

most of these features are basic and are either missing or broken/not working well.

i think comparing to well working AI mods doesn't mean they have to be taken and put in the game as a whole or using their exact same methods. it's just comparing something that doesn't work so well to something that does.

the arma AI is already great at some things and is working well overall. it's also something unique that was always one of the main points i play the arma games. that said. some things need to be addressed and them being addressed wouldn't automatically mean they would break the game. often it's the other way around. while it's very easy to make AI move on a scripted path by temporarily deactivating parts or all of their routines, some of the problems they have since OFP are actually what can easily break a mission or make certain types of missions impossible to make.

Fixing them would erase a LARGE part of the immersion-killing (and challenge-killing) idiocy that you see too often, which mission makers can't really fix either.

that's exactly my view. nothing is more frustrating then something that is complex and nearly perfect but due to some problems creates totally idiotic results sometimes. some of these fixes would make the AI outstanding but as long as they switch from cleverly flanking and suppressing you over long ranges to totally worthless in close range and indoors they will always feel bad no matter how well they do some things.

[chortles 263]

What did InstaGoat say?

It was essentially that as of Gamescom, the devs were intending "no new features until the ones we have are actually working properly", at least with AI. I don't recall who it was that said that they were still compiling documentation about their own AI... but it's led to my sometimes-joke "how do you expect BI devs to <do this> when they can barely get the AI to stop tripping over its own shoelaces?" and my earlier skeptic remark to Rydygier.

I do recognize that AI devs =/= other-task devs, but I imagine that you get my drift. ;)

[chrisb 196]

A small selection of pictures taking during test scenarios. Maybe reasons why some of these mods need to be looked at by BIS. All are ai apart from me taking the pictures during the tests, they are all acting in intelligent ways, doing what some believe impossible in this series, but they do act/react this way in the missions we play.

Look through, its all building use related including engaging from those positions..

I don’t mind having modded ai, that isn’t a problem to me, but the the mod maker who made this possible or should I say the makers, as this is a cross effect of mixing pbo’s, are now gone from this community, I haven't seen them pop up anywhere else, so I assume they may have left the series behind, how are we to get this back.:(

Don’t forget these mods were made a number of years ago, but, never bettered...

Edit:

First lot done..

Final lot done..

For me to say this works fine out of the box, is a little misleading, the ai we use are for missions we make. One mod in particular we use as a base format, this is GL4, now a problem with GL4 is that it may not work correctly in missions not made using that base format. Therefore BIS campaigns and other user made missions might not work as they should when using GL4.

Any user missions made with the format will work fine, but as said, it would be wrong for me to say this is a ‘for all’ ai, its really for mission makers/players using that particular format..

Its enhanced ai, really..

Edited April 6, 2013 by ChrisB

[Sneakson 1]

A small selection of pictures taking during test scenarios. Maybe reasons why some of these mods need to be looked at by BIS. All are ai apart from me taking the pictures during the tests, they are all acting in intelligent ways, doing what some believe impossible in this series, but they do act/react this way in the missions we play.

Look through, its all building use related including engaging from those positions..

I don’t mind having modded ai, that isn’t a problem to me, but the the mod maker who made this possible or should I say the makers, as this is a cross effect of mixing pbo’s, are now gone from this community, I haven't seen them pop up anywhere else, so I assume they may have left the series behind, how are we to get this back.:(

Don’t forget these mods were made a number of years ago, but, never bettered...

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Edit: Some of these are too big to load up easy, so I'm transfering them onto YT, will put that up very soon..

Hm, there's a healthy dose of mods improving ArmA2 AI huh? That may make me give it a chance.

I downloaded the ArmA2 demo last summer and it worked like absolute garbage. In the only showcase mission it had all my ai buddies did was die instantly.

I'd walk into the village strategically, turn around and they'd all be lying bleeding or be dead and noone helped each other out or when they did they'd get shot down... so... bad.

Basically that immediately made me regard ArmA2 as trash possibly unless you were playing it online.

So can the ai be substantially improved by modding?

[Vigil Vindex 64]

I think a good step would be for some documentation to be provided by BIS to give some insight into how the AI is actually handled, in terms of architecture, code execution, and code function. Anything really to give a better picture of what is going on and what can be improved, and what should not be changed.

I also think, regardless of what BIS is able to do (or not) on its own with the AI, it should be openly documented so the community and editors/moders can improve and contribute to the development of the AI in general.

Something like this was a good start but was never finished - http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_2:_Operation_Arrowhead:_AI_FSM

Edited April 6, 2013 by ssechaud
EDIT

[chrisb 196]

Hm, there's a healthy dose of mods improving ArmA2 AI huh? That may make me give it a chance.

I downloaded the ArmA2 demo last summer and it worked like absolute garbage. In the only showcase mission it had all my ai buddies did was die instantly.

I'd walk into the village strategically, turn around and they'd all be lying bleeding or be dead and noone helped each other out or when they did they'd get shot down... so... bad.

Basically that immediately made me regard ArmA2 as trash possibly unless you were playing it online.

So can the ai be substantially improved by modding?

I have put the pics into YT slideshows to make it easier to view. Now I have also added details under the videos, you should read that, this type of enhanced ai requires certain mods and mission making format..

But to answer your question, yes, ai mods can completely change the game, when used correctly and with good mission design. The best ai you will find anywhere in any game, free thinking ai, obviously they are not perfect in every way, but they are as close as you will get, imo.

Very realistic immersive gaming, on another level, again imo..;)

[-Coulum- 35]

Does anybody else notice the ai being overly reluctant to engage you, especially at range. I am putting down ai rifleman 300 metres away from me and I can't get the to fire back at me like I could when the alpha first came out. At these ranges with Autorifleman the ai shoots a couple bursts and then leaves you alone. Is this intentional to address all the complaints about ai being to good at spotting? I hope not...

[killerwhale 1]

yeah i notice that Coulumn, did a several test, ai wont engage even though target is visible and within range. i have noticed the speed of aiming and slow response to fire. i have made video about it.

[froggyluv 2136]

Does anybody else notice the ai being overly reluctant to engage you, especially at range. I am putting down ai rifleman 300 metres away from me and I can't get the to fire back at me like I could when the alpha first came out. At these ranges with Autorifleman the ai shoots a couple bursts and then leaves you alone. Is this intentional to address all the complaints about ai being to good at spotting? I hope not...

Honestly I haven't. Im playing a scenario in which AI are duking it out at up to 1 click on the mountainside -the only thing I think Im noticing is my guys seem to be doing more firing than the enemy (CPU)

yeah i notice that Coulumn, did a several test, ai wont engage even though target is visible and within range. i have noticed the speed of aiming and slow response to fire. i have made video about it.

Yeah, needs calibrating though his release speed looked fine once he faced you. In OFP do you remember the guys whipping 180's on their bellies faster than B-Boys? I would prefer they start using far more head movement checks than full body rotations - the longer they stare in your direction, the more chance they have to spot you.

---------- Post added at 10:53 ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 ----------

I think a good step would be for some documentation to be provided by BIS to give some insight into how the AI is actually handled, in terms of architecture, code execution, and code function. Anything really to give a better picture of what is going on and what can be improved, and what should not be changed.

I also think, regardless of what BIS is able to do (or not) on its own with the AI, it should be openly documented so the community and editors/moders can improve and contribute to the development of the AI in general.

Something like this was a good start but was never finished - http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_2:_Operation_Arrowhead:_AI_FSM

The original AI documentation is lost -a mysterious Codex of vast mysterious coding only to be returned one day by "Indiana Jones 19 -The Search for AI."

[chortles 263]

The original AI documentation is lost -a mysterious Codex of vast mysterious coding only to be returned one day by "Indiana Jones 19 -The Search for AI."

Something to keep in mind when complaining about AI in Arma 3... not even BI knows their own AI inside-out, much less has a "how to" manual for it.

[-Coulum- 35]

yeah i notice that Coulumn, did a several test, ai wont engage even though target is visible and within range. i have noticed the speed of aiming and slow response to fire. i have made video about it.

turn speed is a problem but its not what I was getting at. It seems that small groups of riflemen (1-3) aren't able to identify/engage single enemies (ie. you the player) at ranges over 150 metres or so, even when you fire, move or even hit them. For auto riflemen, they will fire a couple burst and then act the same as the rifle men not engaging until you are within 150m. the problem seems to go away when group size increases or when a squad leader uses his binoculars to identy targets. But I am noticing that when there are only a couple of enemies in a squad left they are very reluctant to shoot at you at range.

So far my test is to just place an enemy rifleman on the air port with a waypint 200m away from me. I then fire and move around to try and get him to shoot me. He never does. Anybody else have the same problem? Hopefully tommorow i will have enough time to do more analytical tests looking at knowsabout and what not as well as make a video to demonstrate.

Honestly I haven't. Im playing a scenario in which AI are duking it out at up to 1 click on the mountainside -the only thing I think Im noticing is my guys seem to be doing more firing than the enemy (CPU)

Yeah like I said abouve, it doesn't seem to effect groups of more than 4 or so, or those with a squad leader.

[maturin 12]

It's because of the optics, probably.

[seamusgod 1]

the ai needs to look around in a natural and believable fashion and they need to react to spotted threats more quickly. right now, the ai basically stares into one direction the whole time they're in the game. unless you give them a waypoint, they won't change their facing. the ai in general just needs more autonomy to do things normal humans would do without being told and babysat the whole time. the commands will then be able to modify or override their behavior to create much deeper and more tactical maneuvers and actions.

[killerwhale 1]

the ai needs to look around in a natural and believable fashion and they need to react to spotted threats more quickly. right now, the ai basically stares into one direction the whole time they're in the game. unless you give them a waypoint, they won't change their facing. the ai in general just needs more autonomy to do things normal humans would do without being told and babysat the whole time. the commands will then be able to modify or override their behavior to create much deeper and more tactical maneuvers and actions.

i couldnt have said it better, i'm wondering if Bohemia will fix the AI's inablity to move in buildings, they cant tell where target is, or how far it is when they're inside buildings. sometimes if you're in the first floor and they're in the 2nd floor, they keep looking at the floor without moving to watch the stairs and they never also will use windows. they're totaly useless in buildings. so is bohemia ever going to fix this? and ofcourse responding quickly where fire is coming from instead of scanning like the video above :D