AI Improvement

[chrisb 196]

If your using AIA, then try putting ‘zeus_findcover’ pbo in there, they will find cover better and much more realistically than TPWC, which is more for suppression.

That’s what I have found anyway, last vid previous page, though there are a few pbo's running there.

[killerwhale 1]

AI wants the kill so badly

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[maturin 12]

If your using AIA, then try putting ‘zeus_findcover’ pbo in there, they will find cover better and much more realistically than TPWC, which is more for suppression.

That’s what I have found anyway, last vid previous page, though there are a few pbo's running there.

Zeus' findcover makes the AI practically useless. They will just trip over each other running away from the slightest threat, with squads gunning each other down willy-nilly as they sprint into each other's firezones.

Not to mention, the movement overrides EVERY form of hold position command, from scripting on down, breaking missions.

[chrisb 196]

Zeus' findcover makes the AI practically useless. They will just trip over each other running away from the slightest threat, with squads gunning each other down willy-nilly as they sprint into each other's firezones.

Not to mention, the movement overrides EVERY form of hold position command, from scripting on down, breaking missions.

Heard it before, just the videos and the actions don't say the same, fortunately for me and the group I play in that use it in the mix we use and have done for some years, have a look at some of the test vids, they are a2 however, not working fully in a3, yet..

[Midnight 10]

AI wants the kill so badly

lol that heli bounced

[maturin 12]

Heard it before, just the videos and the actions don't say the same, fortunately for me and the group I play in that use it in the mix we use and have done for some years, have a look at some of the test vids, they are a2 however, not working fully in a3, yet..

Yeah, or I could use the PBO, and watch it turn the AI into squirrelly retards and break all my missions, which I already did.

[chrisb 196]

Yeah, or I could use the PBO, and watch it turn the AI into squirrelly retards and break all my missions, which I already did.

Surprising, as you recommend Zeus for your missions..

Still, it is a case of not just dropping a pbo into a mission, it needs correct mission design and the right mix of ai pbo's. As we all know mission design is an art and having the right mix of anything within that mission is hard to work out for the best results. Missions can easily be broken with the smallest of things, I sometimes may make it sound simplistic, which I don't mean to do. Its just that I have done it for soo long, I forget that many don't use the same type of mission design and ai..

But each to their own, that and none of this may ever be usable in A3 anyhow...:(

[metalcraze 290]

The issue with your mix is that because Zeus is at its core - it turns AIs into headless chicken who will rush for cover and into buildings disregarding all dangers around them getting torn to bits by players and enemy AI alike.

By the end of its development Zeus made AI uncontrollable and following mod rules too blindly and "taking control away from the player/mission maker" was one of the main complaints and the author had to start remaking it (which he sadly never finished). Zeus AI can even disregard HOLD waypoint which should never happen.

AI mods should integrate seamlessly so you can just play missions not made for them and they would get improved, not get broken. This is where ASR AI + TPWCAS succeed. They may lack "cool moves" that would look good in videos but AI survivability is a lot better. AI LOS doesn't work with Zeus and that small script alone makes all the difference between dead and alive AI under 100m.

What's the use of AI entering buildings when they do it as a whole squad, often bunching up at the same entrance even if there's an enemy MG pointed at it - and when it begins wiping them out they can't get out of the script forcing them to enter - all of them dying as a result. In contrast with ASR only a small group will enter buildings with the rest of the squad staying nearby which by a coincidence also provides cover for those entering soldiers.

Edited April 30, 2013 by metalcraze

[maturin 12]

As I've already told you, metalcraze (really, read my posts and shut up about this), the disruptive elements of Zeus AI were only found in BETA PBOs which never actually finished development before the mod creator vanished.

Findcover.pbo is not part of the official Zeus AI as used by most communities and hosted on major mod sites.

[chrisb 196]

The issue with your mix is that because Zeus is at its core - it turns AIs into headless chicken who will rush for cover and into buildings disregarding all dangers around them getting torn to bits by players and enemy AI alike.

By the end of its development Zeus made AI uncontrollable and following mod rules too blindly and "taking control away from the player/mission maker" was one of the main complaints and the author had to start remaking it (which he sadly never finished). Zeus AI can even disregard HOLD waypoint which should never happen.

AI mods should integrate seamlessly so you can just play missions not made for them and they would get improved, not get broken. This is where ASR AI + TPWCAS succeed. They may lack "cool moves" that would look good in videos but AI survivability is a lot better. AI LOS doesn't work with Zeus and that small script alone makes all the difference between dead and alive AI under 100m.

What's the use of AI entering buildings when they do it as a whole squad, often bunching up at the same entrance even if there's an enemy MG pointed at it - and when it begins wiping them out they can't get out of the script forcing them to enter - all of them dying as a result. In contrast with ASR only a small group will enter buildings with the rest of the squad staying nearby which by a coincidence also provides cover for those entering soldiers.

Not arguing about it, as said, I’ve heard it all before.

Metalcraze, none of what you say happens, not in a well designed mission with the pbo’s I use. Bunching in doorways, diving into buildings, its fantasy, but there again it does show how badly some put up with arma’s gameplay choosing to ignore whats available on the map, when there are mods that will do it for you, providing you design the mission right. Further than that, its GL4 at the core not Zeus, your whole mission would have to be made using the gl4 format. But I understand some can't get the performance the same, thats their problem, certainly not mine.

But as said each to their own, I just prefer smart ai, its all that really matters in the series. Take that away, which means I would be playing like 'metal' here, and its really not worth playing the game against any ai. Our group plays against the ai a lot, infact most of the time, so its important the ai are really good, which is why we use a mix of the best ai mods..

But as said, not arguing or preaching, the test videos are there to be seen, show's the real behaviour of smart ai when using the right mix.

There will be new videos showing the same for arma 3 (owing to the AiA mod:D), but I dare say people will still play basic arma ai, thats their privilege, its each to their own..

Enough said..;)

[bad benson 1733]

with the pbo’s I use.

mix of the best ai mods..

using the right mix.

would you be so kind and post a list of mods and additionally a list of the pbos you use from them for arma 3. i used the ai stuff in arma 2 a lot but i hadn't the time to really find a mix for arma 3. would be good to have a confirmed list of stuff that works without breaking the game from someone who obviously has something working. i mean you talk about this a lot so please enlighten me;)

[chrisb 196]

would you be so kind and post a list of mods and additionally a list of the pbos you use from them for arma 3. i used the ai stuff in arma 2 a lot but i hadn't the time to really find a mix for arma 3. would be good to have a confirmed list of stuff that works without breaking the game from someone who obviously has something working. i mean you talk about this a lot so please enlighten me;)

There is a pbo list linked from my sig, its for A2.

Regards ai for A3A, not sure what will work yet, it is only because of the AiA mod by kju that some of the ai mods from A2 started to work better, not sure why because the AiA is not for that, just luck maybe, so I'm keeping fingers firmly crossed that it doesn't change, just test and test some more..;)

Edit: forgot, the reason I talk about ai so much is probably, that for me, its the most important aspect of the whole series..

Edited April 30, 2013 by ChrisB

[maturin 12]

Edit: Why did your sig disappear...?

[chrisb 196]

Edit: Why did your sig disappear...?

Only one sig per page rule now..

[bad benson 1733]

the reason I talk about ai so much is probably, that for me, its the most important aspect of the whole series..

i didn't mean AI in general but your pbo mix. you just mentioned your pbo mix a lot so i thought i might ask what it actually is. AI was once the most important aspect for me too. i just try to not focus to much on it anymore so i don't get frustrated ;)

EDIT: i tested GL4 so far and it works great. AI is using houses now (not very effectively but they do). they also will come for you if you hide in a house. these are the pbos i used.

GL4_Config.pbo

GL4_System.pbo

Edited April 30, 2013 by Bad Benson

[froggyluv 2130]

EDIT: i tested GL4 so far and it works great. AI is using houses now (not very effectively but they do). they also will come for you if you hide in a house. these are the pbos i used.

GL4_Config.pbo

GL4_System.pbo

You and others have reported this though I'm pretty dumbfounded because I specifically asked SNKMAN (GL4 author) if he coded for AI to check the exact house the enemy (or player) is in and he said it wasn't possible due to some hardwired issue. :confused:

[bad benson 1733]

well let's put it this way. they search every building on the way so they will come into the one you are in, if they come looking for you. so it's more like a side effect of their general habit of searching houses with GL4. sure the code might not exactly do that but the outcome is what counts here. in arma 3 tests and also in the past they always eventually ended up "finding" me inside inside houses when i used GL4.

i mean don't get me wrong. i'm not saying everything is perfect now. i really hope they put something like it or preferably something better into the core game but i'm happy with anything that improves my experience. when i post this here i'm not saying "hey everyone. problem solved. let's shut this thread down". it's more like "look here fellow AI enthusiasts. this might ease your pain a little". ;)

[chrisb 196]

i didn't mean AI in general but your pbo mix. you just mentioned your pbo mix a lot so i thought i might ask what it actually is. AI was once the most important aspect for me too. i just try to not focus to much on it anymore so i don't get frustrated ;)

EDIT: i tested GL4 so far and it works great. AI is using houses now (not very effectively but they do). they also will come for you if you hide in a house. these are the pbos i used.

GL4_Config.pbo

GL4_System.pbo

AI always did use houses with this mod, you do understand the missions you make, to get these to work correctly, have to be GL4 format. Also the readme, make sure if your making a mission using this mod, to read it..

______

@Froggyluv, they will hunt down sound, never mind you, its in the vids, have I mentioned that before...;):p

Now where is SNKMAN..:confused: and all the others..

GL3/4, SLX & Zeus genius mods, where would the game be without them, well I would have stopped playing a long time ago..:D

Edited May 1, 2013 by ChrisB

[Richard_B 10]

One thing I'm looking for is AI simply seeking natural cover, the infantry showcase is somewhat poor because it seems the AI still refuse to find cover behind rocks/trees using the appropriate stances and by the time Alpha squad reaches the village on average the entire squad is dead with the exception of the player. I've some times been able to make it with 2-3 guy still alive, plus all of Bravo and Charlie, but the AI simply hitting the deck instead of running behind a tree the peeking out and shooting is costing us a lot of lives.

[dmarkwick 261]

One thing I'm looking for is AI simply seeking natural cover, the infantry showcase is somewhat poor because it seems the AI still refuse to find cover behind rocks/trees using the appropriate stances and by the time Alpha squad reaches the village on average the entire squad is dead with the exception of the player. I've some times been able to make it with 2-3 guy still alive, plus all of Bravo and Charlie, but the AI simply hitting the deck instead of running behind a tree the peeking out and shooting is costing us a lot of lives.

Have you tried manually ordering your units to Danger/stealth? select all - 7 - 2 will do it. They use cover & stances all the time then.

[mr.g-c 6]

The Ai routines need to be fully recoded, lets be honest about it. Then it needs randomness in the majority of its coded functions.

BIS should hire a single smart guy which does nothing else but the AI the whole day. And he should love to tweak and improve it.

Then take famous Army/whatever military branch handbooks and read how to react and plan to whatever happens on the battlefield.

I believe it is possible. Give the AI a complete CPU core just for calculations (i know nobody which doesnt have a 4 core CPU these days).

Like said earlier there should be a random wait time (simulates planning in the squad under humans), before trying to do an attack from cover when got shot at previously.

And thats just one of 1000s tweaks the AI desperately need.

Just my 2 cents...

[Insanatrix 0]

Biggest thing that I can see is that AI routines are not easily interrupted, which leads to them being too "focused" on something. For instance if they know about a target and are actively engaging or chasing it and another target pops out of cover, even out in the open practically right in front of them, they continue to focus that first target until they perceive the second target to be a bigger threat. I think it boils down to whatever threat/priority is coded into the FSM's being sub-optimal.

Most of the problems I see boil down to how the AI react AFTER first contact with an enemy or unknown.

[metalcraze 290]

BIS should hire a single smart guy which does nothing else but the AI the whole day.

BIS has such guy. But he's making RV3 an MMO-friendly engine for DayZ right now. His nickname is Suma.

Or at least all the major AI improvements we saw in all those ArmA2 patches were assigned to him on dev-heaven.

One thing I'm looking for is AI simply seeking natural cover, the infantry showcase is somewhat poor because it seems the AI still refuse to find cover behind rocks/trees using the appropriate stances and by the time Alpha squad reaches the village on average the entire squad is dead with the exception of the player. I've some times been able to make it with 2-3 guy still alive, plus all of Bravo and Charlie, but the AI simply hitting the deck instead of running behind a tree the peeking out and shooting is costing us a lot of lives.

AI in ArmA2/3 is good at finding cover actually. It's not seen in ArmA3 however because of AI rushing to his objective too fast that I mentioned a few pages back.

But you can see this important improvement in ArmA2 1.63 beta a lot more clearly.

AI will now stick close to each other, they will stack along walls, they will not run alone much, they will try to keep max possible distance from the enemy needed to eliminate him - it's really a great improvement. It fixed the issue with snipers being non-existent in the series (as in they always tried to close in on the enemy even with the sniper rifle), now they also try to engage from max possible distance.

Coupled with excellent Rydygier's mod that adds AI commander I think it was quite a milestone for having a good AI everywhere in ArmA.

What Rydygier did should be inside the engine, not a script workaround.

Edited May 1, 2013 by metalcraze

[froggyluv 2130]

The Ai routines need to be fully recoded, lets be honest about it...

Seems a bit extreme, no...? Lets not forget the Arma series is becoming more and more the rare bird that still offers massive AI available in a free world environment. I feel like quite the old nag on this but "Who else is doing it better?" Please don't mention corridor scripted shooters -I mean open world, sandbox variety?

Biggest thing that I can see is that AI routines are not easily interrupted, which leads to them being too "focused" on something. For instance if they know about a target and are actively engaging or chasing it and another target pops out of cover, even out in the open practically right in front of them, they continue to focus that first target until they perceive the second target to be a bigger threat. I think it boils down to whatever threat/priority is coded into the FSM's being sub-optimal.

Most of the problems I see boil down to how the AI react AFTER first contact with an enemy or unknown.

This. First reaction does tend to be good but the AI then seem to have no real gameplan after that. If fighting multiple angle opponents -forget about it (though admittedly that situation is tough in RL). I'd really like to see a distance precendent-CQB/imminent threat vs longer range threat etc...Also staying in decent cover should overide marching into bullet pathways. Personally I'd love to see some type of AI personality templates that would at least add sense to safe/reckless/rabid/stealthlike behaviour.

BIS has such guy. But he's making RV3 an MMO-friendly engine for DayZ right now. His nickname is Suma.

Or at least all the major AI improvements we saw in all those ArmA2 patches were assigned to him on dev-heaven.

.

That is a little depressing. I thought I rememberd them saying a fulltime small team were dedicated to testing the AI behaviours etc...hope they didn't mean us :o

[kremator 1064]

This. First reaction does tend to be good but the AI then seem to have no real gameplan after that. If fighting multiple angle opponents -forget about it (though admittedly that situation is tough in RL). I'd really like to see a distance precendent-CQB/imminent threat vs longer range threat etc...Also staying in decent cover should overide marching into bullet pathways. Personally I'd love to see some type of AI personality templates that would at least add sense to safe/reckless/rabid/stealthlike behaviour.

Definately ^^ THIS ! I do like the way AI take cover, but they seem to have difficulty angling themselves when in that cover towards the likely direction of the threat. They also need to be MORE aware of other threat directions as the battle rages on. The FSM that control them needs to weigh up the possibility of them being flanked (based on knowsabout) and them moving if necessary!