Stealth Kills?

[Minoza 11]

Lol,

. 4:30.

Can we have that simulated too? :D

[minicus 1]

That would be really cool to sneak around AI and kill the main target and drag his body to a hidden area and then leave without ever being seen.

[Ghostwolf 1]

I would just like to see subsonic ammo for pistols, rifles and sniper rifles that would result in being able to fire from closer then current ranges without being noticed.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Ghostwolf

[Mac 1]

That would be really cool to sneak around AI and kill the main target and drag his body to a hidden area and then leave without ever being seen.

Dude you can't kill someone quietly with a knife, even if you sneak up on him. It is loud and messy. Technically the only real stealth kill is a sniper shot from a hidden position.

[mmaruda 20]

It is possible and has been done, that's why we have combat knives which are not bayonets. Messy yes, loud? Not if you cut someone's throat. It's also possible to just grab a guy from behind and strangle them till they loose consciousness. The problem with Arma is that no matter what you do, the AI reacts quite fast so silencers, knives and other stuff might make you think you have an advantage, but 5 seconds later enemy units open up on you. Stealth missions is something that's lacking in the game and would be awesome to have.

[metalcraze 290]

Not if you cut someone's throat.

So you cut someone's throat - he keeps struggling and squeezing that trigger making a lot of noise. He can't shout sure, but he doesn't die either.

It's also possible to just grab a guy from behind and strangle them till they loose consciousness.

And they will do that willingly right? Will just stand there doing nothing as you strangle them?

Knives are not there to do "stealth kills".

Stealth missions is something that's lacking in the game and would be awesome to have.

There are dozens of stealth missions starting from OFP in the game itself, let alone many more community made ones. So I'm not sure what you mean.

Here's but one example

Edited March 22, 2013 by metalcraze

[samco 1]

Well a soldier , if not allerted , especially if he is a sentry patrolling the same area for weeks with no perceived threat, may don't always have his finger on the trigger .

If done correctly knifing is a brutal but effective technique to take one down silently .

I think this was already posted , anyway here it is http://library.enlisted.info/field-manuals/series-2/FM21_150/CH7.PDF

[mr_centipede 31]

Melee has been requested since OFP days... Then when Arma was release, then when Arma 2 was released and then now.. it will never come to fruition. Just give it up.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Melee has been requested since OFP days... Then when Arma was release, then when Arma 2 was released and then now.. it will never come to fruition. Just give it up.

I'm afraid this is true. We'll have to stick to cluncky scripting.

[metalcraze 290]

Well a soldier , if not allerted , especially if he is a sentry patrolling the same area for weeks with no perceived threat, may don't always have his finger on the trigger .

If done correctly knifing is a brutal but effective technique to take one down silently .

I think this was already posted , anyway here it is http://library.enlisted.info/field-manuals/series-2/FM21_150/CH7.PDF

Sure you can pull it off with one soldier, that probably patrols alone somewhere in the bushes for whatever reason. What about all others? What if you fail?

Because I have an impression that by 'stealth' people mean knifing out the whole base with 100% guarantee of every kill, or even better - rushing in guns blazing with, naturally, nobody noticing that because magic silencers and the opposition should act stupid too, not checking in on patrolmen (see complaints about soldiers getting alerted eventually if somebody in their squad gets wiped 100m away from the rest of the group).

Stealth is about nobody noticing that you've been there. Leaving a trail of bodies behind isn't stealth. CWC had the best stealth missions in the series done by BIS ever - and, surprise, none had "wipe out the whole base" task. For that there are daytime and grunts.

Edited March 22, 2013 by metalcraze

[rye1 21]

Melee has been requested since OFP days... Then when Arma was release, then when Arma 2 was released and then now.. it will never come to fruition. Just give it up.

"Better animations has been requested since OFP days... Then when Arma was release, then when Arma 2 was released and then now.. it will never come to fruition. Just give it up."

"Better CQB has been requested since OFP days... Then when Arma was release, then when Arma 2 was released and then now.. it will never come to fruition. Just give it up."

The point being better. It's already a baseline of the game. If a melee animation, used or not I don't care, was there - you'd see better modifications sprout from it. You plant the seed, you see it grow. And with these animations, there's room for some well-made features.

Stealth is about nobody noticing that you've been there. Leaving a trail of bodies behind isn't stealth. CWC had the best stealth missions in the series done by BIS ever - and, surprise, none had "wipe out the whole base" task. For that there are daytime and grunts.

How clever of you for mentioning daytime, because night really would help wouldn't it? That diminished visibility and all, aren't you smart!

And if you find dead bodies hours after they've been and completed their mission, what is that?

Stealth isn't necessarily not being caught. It's a flexible definition dependent on what you're trying to achieve.

An example, you got caught by an individual. You got compromised but still took them out. That's not alerting anyone else. The unknown is still relevant, you're still not known.

So you cut someone's throat - he keeps struggling and squeezing that trigger making a lot of noise. He can't shout sure, but he doesn't die either.

And they will do that willingly right? Will just stand there doing nothing as you strangle them?

Woah. The expert strikes again with no evidence.

You all should consult Metalcraze on his most knowledgeable subjects: CQB, H2H, AI. Wait... everything.

I'll be coming to you when I want to know how to clear a room or take someone down. ;)

You give two variables: squeezing a trigger and struggling. That must of took a lot of thought.

I wonder where those variables won't happen? I mean if you create a 'technique' you normally want to avoid these variables...

Or if somehow those variables didn't apply.

That's a hard one, that would require actual knowledge and thought on the subject. Hmm.

Knives are not there to do "stealth kills".

What is there to do stealth kills? Your bare hands? Your belt?

They're mentioning knives because they're logical for the purpose of melee, not for pure silent anything, which as stated pure silence does not mean the compromise of stealth. Soldiers carry knives, right? Let me guess, some Metalcraze answer: "DAY DNT CLR DA ROOMZ WIT IT."

Oh wait, you're right. That NEVER happens. I mean bare hands, what's wrong with people?

Is it only Australians that strangle Taliban Commanders to death now?!

If we shove 'stealth' out of the mix then it opens up a number of situations where it has happened.

That factor of stealth, wow, it really doesn't work? Except for those reports and personal experiences in which say it does.

All bow to Metalcraze!!! You cannot dispute his awe inspiring knowledge.

[sqb-sma 66]

As an Aussie, I have no idea what you're talking about. I strangle everyone, guns are for pussies who can't bear staring down the enemy as they gasp their last breath. Doesn't matter if it isn't in the game either.

Honestly I just don't think melee is a priority, sure put in an animation (though sure a modder could make an animation easy enough) but it's not really a priority the way I look at arma.

[rye1 21]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/killer-commando-america-poaches-australias-toughest-man/story-fncynjr2-1226592161560

[morthawt 0]

I would love a stealthy knife attack from behind with a nice animation silencing the target as his life is extinguished lol.

[afp 1]

To be honest I haven't read all 60 pages of answers here but I want to say that a nice stealth mission very much depends on its design. There are several things you need to have in mind (they can be tested in editor):

1. If you shoot a member of a group, all other members automatically get allerted (yes, KnowsAbout about the shooter is rising up).

2. If one member of a group sees a dead body, he will get allerted.

3. If you shoot an enemy in the head with one single bullet, he won't scream and allert the members of other groups around. If you just wound him, the others get allerted.

4. There is a certain distance that you can get close proned behind an enemy without getting noticed by sounds.

With all these in mind, a stealth mission should be designed like this:

- Small groups (1-2-maxim 3) members that can be taken out all at once, in the head. These should have a predictable path, like patrols far from "base" or having a fixed facing direction to be able to do so, unnoticed.

- These groups should not see each other, unless you plan to execute both/all of them at once. Otherwise, once you eliminate one group, some other will see their corpses and get alerted.

- Or you can put them in a certain order like: group 1 looking at 2, 2 looking at 3 etc and start killing with 1 (kind of "commandos" game style)

With such design you will be able to take out a full base without being detected. You can also use some tricks like making some of them dumb like asses so they dont react at all, just being part of the landscape. Or use groups of 1 soldier, so they wont instant allert anyone else in their group when they die. But there will be no such fun knowing knowing they wont react.

To test, just trigger an alarm on "blufor detected" in the area, so you know if the design is good enough.

Edited March 23, 2013 by afp

[mmaruda 20]

- Small groups (1-2-maxim 3) members that can be taken out all at once, in the head.

The problem with Arma is that head-shots not always work with pistols - in Arma 2 you can still find a civilian who can be shot in the melon with a silenced 9mm and walk away like it's cool (yeah, I kill civies for fun).

[qbert 10]

I think with the whole "stealth" thing in mind here, we really don't need a knife. I think a rifle butt would work fine. The ACE2 mod has something like that, where you can use a key, and select "Knock out" or something. Basically just an animation, and then it knocks the NPC/player unconscious. I think regardless of what weapon/equipment you're using for melee, it needs to be implemented in a very "Arma" way. The knockout thing I just mentioned is an idea, but that's a very unintuitive way to put melee kills in. Perhaps it could be similiar, with how it locks you in place to do the action, but it's bound to something like "Ctrl+double left click" or something.

Not fond of the idea personally, but I could see how it'd make interesting emergent gameplay. I can imagine awesome scenarios with specops teams emerging from the water, slashing the enemies throat/bashing him in the head with the rifle, from behind, and then carrying on to their objective. It is a little bit hollywood, but imagine what could be done with this kind of thing.

On a sidenote, it'd also be great to have some non-lethal weapons in general. I can think of some very "SWAT" style scenarios that could benefit. That's off topic though.

[Lucasmnunesk 2]

I don't think that there is a way to make hand-to-hand combat in this game to be fun, how would it work? QuickTime Events? And in my opnion there is no secure way to stealth kill in hand to hand or with knifes, i don't really know, but someone even with their throat cut open would still make noise don't? And hand-to-hand would be way to risky.

I don't really think these things belong to arma, SWAT games where even more focused towards CQB and never needed it.

But i'm always in favor to have more options, so instead of arguing if it should be implemented try to explain how it would work, one key and its done? quicktime events? are the only way i can see it working, but i wouldn't like it.

I don't believe that these things are used in real, people said that knife kills are messy and noisy and it does make sense, and hand-to-hand should be even worse.

[mmaruda 20]

Ok,so maybe like this: the Commandos way - there would be a new unit type skilled with a knife, call it infiltrator, assassin, whatever. Only that unit would be able to perform stealth kills properly, provided they can sneak up from behind. The animation should be something like the guy cutting the enemy's throat and then holding him so he doesn't just fall and make a lot of noise. The other units would just stab a guy making a lot of noise. Hand to hand is not really needed IMO, Arma does not have that sort of intense battles where you would hit a guy with rifle stock or stab him with a bayonet. Still there should be some base to make it possible with modding other than the DayZ 0m range. Just in case someone wants to make a Napoleonic Wars mod. :)

[metalcraze 290]

How clever of you for mentioning daytime, because night really would help wouldn't it? That diminished visibility and all, aren't you smart!

I'm not sure what are you talking about here?

And if you find dead bodies hours after they've been and completed their mission, what is that?

So it's possible to kill the whole base of enemies with nobody noticing that their friends get missing in suspiciously high numbers?

An example, you got caught by an individual. You got compromised but still took them out. That's not alerting anyone else. The unknown is still relevant, you're still not known.

And that's possible in ArmA. So?

You give two variables: squeezing a trigger and struggling. That must of took a lot of thought.

I wonder where those variables won't happen? I mean if you create a 'technique' you normally want to avoid these variables...

Well then I want to hear your expertise, a guy who thinks that crawling unnoticed at day time 1m away from enemies is something that's possible IRL. What are those techniques to cutting out the whole base of patrolling enemies with a single knife strike per each?

Why do we even need guns if knives are so magnificently effective at killing everything 100% silent?

They're mentioning knives because they're logical for the purpose of melee, not for pure silent anything

I suggest you read this thread's title then.

EDIT:

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/killer-commando-america-poaches-australias-toughest-man/story-fncynjr2-1226592161560

That's a great example of a stealth kill. A trained, muscular dude strangling a zero-training taliban commander as he was struggling and screaming in the middle of a heated combat going everywhere around them.

But silly aussie didn't know he should've used a knife instead - no struggle, no screams and a body slides down on a floor like a feather. Should've just knifed the whole base - nobody would've noticed they even were there, let alone engage them in combat.

Edited March 23, 2013 by metalcraze

[adanteh 58]

A melee implementation would be fairly hollywood, but still, it's a nice thing for the engine to have. Especially a knockout with rifle butt seems interesting.

About the non-lethal weapons. I know that Takistan Life has rubber bullets (Which works very weird.), and it could be nice to just 'fall death' but only be unconscious then. Add in some zipties and you're pretty much done.

[cross888 10]

To be honest i would like a sentry killing aspect.

But something that can't be turned in to COD/BF Stabby stabby rubbish.

For example the Bayonet for the old PUKF OFP L85's

[Mac 1]

People need to understand that troops are NOT issued combat knives for stealth kills. They are a last line of defence in hand to hand combat or more commonly just a tool. In all my time in the military I never used my knife to stab someone but it came in handy as a pretty solid tool many times.

[Variable 322]

As an Aussie, I have no idea what you're talking about.

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/killer-commando-america-poaches-australias-toughest-man/story-fncynjr2-1226592161560

Yeah that strangle must have been very stealthy lol. You are just proving yourself wrong.

[Masterfragg 10]

It really bugs me how there are so many people in the PC gaming scene have this problem of being overly elitist.

Console games, whilst rather arcade-like some do bring important features that a PC game would benefit from.

Stealth kills in a game such as this would be a decent improvement if done correctly, no knives, no rocks, although enable controller support so people can enjoy SP missions on their own if they prefer a controller (If you bitch about it you are quite frankly not a bloody gamer, it opens the experience to people and that is GOOD. We should all be able to experience the game and if you complain about the idea then you are quite simply overly bloody stuck up so remove the stick sooner rather than later please).

Stealth kills such as snipers taking out a patrol each with his/her own target and not alerting the world (enemies that reach for radios to call reinforcements etc by default rather than scripts and addons would be nice)

This could be expanded with terrain and radio towers etc although that could be done via addons/scripts.

Working power grids much like the addons for arma1/2 would be nice as well.

But the one thing that bugs me would be the amount of people on the PC platform that somehow think they are better than console gamers. You are not, you enjoy the same hobby so get over yourself and be more accepting.

Stop with the COD bashing as well for crying out loud. It's actually a decent series if you buy every OTHER game, otherwise it is just the same ol' same ol' year in year out. AND! At least they have most of the bugs sorted out!

Still waiting for some Arma2/OA bugs to be fixed lol although Arma is a superior game for me as I enjoy it more.

/Rant over

Also I like the suggestion of less-than-lethal mixed with zipties. Hostage taking in Multiplayer sounds kinda fun for CTI/Wasteland etc if they can produce a Persistent World within Wasteland so people have a character to lose rather than a minor inconvenience.