Boy kills father after taking keyboard away

[echo1 0]

Game stores over here enforce game ages. I agree that young children shouldn't be allowed near these games, but I don't think that it's necessary to leave it till 18... 16? 14? Chances are that if you can't play a video game by the age of 14 without turning into a psycho, you never will.

[InqWiper 0]

Its not like there are 20 kids in the world playing these games and so far 5 have killed theire parents. ;)

I blame mastrubation, it opens a direct channel to satan!

[SWT_Janowich 10]

The same things can happen to mature people as well-.

Its not to blame on the age, but on the person itself and his/her surrounding!

[froggyluv 2136]

I used to work with at risk kids from both the poorest inner-cities where survival is everything to affluent kids whose parents often neglected their emotional needs in favor of becoming richer. Taking them on nature hikes, team sports, kayaking and martial arts, we would try and instill a sense of caring about the people around you rather than just your "self" and build camraderie.

Many of these troubled kids had a huge sense of "self" with an inability or no desire to learn to empathize with those around them. Perhaps video games, of which many would probably be classified as addicted, gave them an alternate reality in which you don't have to learn compromise and work with your fellow man, but could be king of your own domain, slaughtering anyone around you without repercussions.

I don't blame the games themselves at all, but a huge feeding of their own own ego that should have been checked at the door a long time ago. IMHO, too much feeding of the ID will eventually hardwire the brain into possible sociopathic tendencies. Much of this responsiblity does belong to the parents but at some point the kid will have to make a conscience effort to change or the world itself will lay the smackdown on them.

[*LK1* 10]

I blame mastrubation, it opens a direct channel to satan!

base raping too...:D:D

Edited April 16, 2010 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[ck-claw 1]

Nah - ya cant blame video games!

Do they ban cartoons? Hell, what about Tom twatting Jerry over the dead with a frying pan? Etc etc etc :D:D

[Dwarden 1125]

Yes, but „google versions" of games does not have ratings, and anyway there are very few people which looks first on the game packaging to see what the ERSB is and then purchasing (only if the parents are the ones buying the game).

it's responsibility of parents to make sure theirs kids either don't get access

or if they get access they fully understood the difference between virtual and real world and reallife consequences ...

typical example of , don't touch that tea cup , touch, ouch ...

well it was hot, what do You expect if You don't listen ...

same goes with torturing, wounding, insulting, killing or raping someone

if the kid understood that these things are wrong and can't be undone

and there will be consequences (cause in most cases they will be caught)

then such kid will avoid to do it (unless as someone above posted there are other state of mind factors which throw this overboard)

[gulag 10]

it's responsibility of parents to make sure theirs kids either don't get access

or if they get access they fully understood the difference between virtual and real world and reallife consequences ...

typical example of , don't touch that tea cup , touch, ouch ...

well it was hot, what do You expect if You don't listen ...

same goes with torturing, wounding, insulting, killing or raping someone

if the kid understood that these things are wrong and can't be undone

and there will be consequences (cause in most cases they will be caught)

then such kid will avoid to do it (unless as someone above posted there are other state of mind factors which throw this overboard)

Yes you are right, but the condition is that parents give their children such an education, but if parents are ignorant or have no time for children, then who takes responsibility for such deeds?

I remember when I was 13 - 14 years old, my father caught me while I smoked a cigarette (he does not smoke), for this I got a good slapping, it cured me forever of smoking, even when I was in the army I did not feel the need to smoke.

As I said, you are right, depends entirely on how parents work with their children.

[armydude 10]

Yes but then some children like it when their parents disapprove. It makes them feel like a rebel and so when they see that their patents don't like it, they then do it even more.

[icebreakr 3159]

This is totally sick... how can someone take a keyboard from you? What kind of monsters are they?

[Deadfast 43]

Yes but then some children like it when their parents disapprove.

We all did that when we were little. Apparently it's a part of the growing up process :p

As for the older ages, I think gulag's example will work. That is unless the authorities get the wind of it. I mean torturing little innocent kids like that...

[Sertorius21 10]

I've played lots of good video games in my lifetime. For the life of me, I can't think of one that would be worth spending time in a Russian prison. A Russian prison, at the age of 14, on a murder rap for killing your own dad.

BTW, on a semi-related note, are Russian inmates as rape-happy as American convicts?

Edited April 16, 2010 by Sertorius21

[gulag 10]

BTW, on a semi-related note, are Russian inmates as rape-happy as American convicts?

Only if he escapes from tuberculosis, which Russian prisons are full.

[abs 2]

I've played lots of good video games in my lifetime. For the life of me, I can't think of one that would be worth spending time in a Russian prison. A Russian prison, at the age of 14, on a murder rap for killing your own dad.

BTW, on a semi-related note, are Russian inmates as rape-happy as American convicts?

Too bad he won't be convicted, since Russians don't prosecute kids as young as 14.

Abs

[max power 21]

Hi all

I think we are looking at a pre-existing condition, perhaps a form of autism, if not then we are talking full on sociopath or psychopath. The inability to empathise with his father's view at all and his failure to take any consideration of the consequences of his actions, indicate a serious pre existing condition. The fact that he left his mother alone and just went back to playing shows in an inability to add together the consequences of his actions. It would be interesting know if the kid was known to be cruel to animals, often an indicator of psychopathy.

That said I agree the game played a part in triggering the event, do we know what game he was playing? The choice of weapon may indicate World of Warcraft or some RPG, but if the weapon was not one in the game then there is a disconnect to that as the trigger that indicates a purely psychopathic cause, perhaps a long term disagreement between father an son. Breaking the inbuilt barriers to killing our own kind is very hard for most species including humans in the case of Patricide doubly so. Again that indicates a pre-existing pschological disorder.

This was what was discovered in the real MK Ultra experiments. It is very hard to take a normal person and turn them into a killer, but take some one with certain pre exisiting conditions and most of the work is done for you. They do not make good soldiers but they make excelent one time use killers. It the same thing that terrrorist recruiters look for in suicide bombers, it is why they work in religious schools where they can spot such potential targets.

Also you should all read the work Lt.Colonel Grossman on the Killology website has to say on the subject.

http://www.killology.com/article_trainedtokill.htm

We are getting into Operant Conditioning here which is part of the reason the military use simulations like VBS. One of the reasons why the Military chose VBS is because it gives a richer picture of what is on and happens within the battlefield. Games like COD just teach the player to kill, without considering the consequences or the collateral damage, they oversimplify the battlefield.

They can even use VBS to teach soldiers that driving at the civilians has consequences.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7587238.stm

And obviously the corollary of don't shoot the civilians, and look for the threat indicators that tell you that civilian ain't a civilian or is having a non-civilian moment.

Maybe the answer is banning kids from playing games like COD and the rest; and when they are over 18 only allow them to play ArmA or something of that level of complexity.

Kind Regards walker

What grossman says is not that you can train someone to decide to kill. His point is that that can almost never happen. What he says is that you can train someone to not make that decision under certain circumstances- to bypass that consideration using operant conditioning. Before and afterwards you can support and train the soldier to deal with and ameliorate the psychological consequences of his actions.

You can't train someone to decide to go out and get a sledge hammer and bash his sleeping father's head in. This is an abnormal response and there are many, many psychological factors that prevent people from doing this. This is an obvious sign of an abnormal, dissociative brain.

Autism also does not enable someone to kill. Psychiatric conditions are often comorbid, however autism itself is not and will never be a factor in a premeditated murder.

[GRS 10]

Achievement unlocked kid,

Kill your parents to play Halo 2 30GS

YOU STILL FAIL

ontopic: what a sad world we live in, humans must of de-evolved within the last 20 50 years.

Fix'd

[[aps]gnat 28]

I remember when I was 13 - 14 years old, my father caught me while I smoked a cigarette (he does not smoke), for this I got a good slapping, it cured me forever of smoking

Yep, and I learn some of my lessons the same way too, but unfortunately in todays F*ucked Up world, that now amounts to "child abuse" !

He'd be lynched by the do-gooders.

Society going backwards ......

Of course this 14 year old won't really be accused of "parent abuse" will he LOL

[dmakatra 1]

Gnat;1610198']Yep' date=' and I learn some of my lessons the same way too, but unfortunately in todays F*ucked Up world, that now amounts to "child abuse" !

He'd be lynched by the do-gooders.

Society going backwards ......

Of course this 14 year old won't really be accused of "parent abuse" will he LOL[/quote']

Funny, I never even touched a cigarette and my parents never 'disciplined' me.

Youth of today. :j:

[sparks50 0]

If hitting kids were a way to fix problems, then why was there crime at all in the old days?

I dunno where you live, but where I live, violent crime has been dropping steadily the last 60 years.

Edited April 17, 2010 by sparks50

[emerald 8 10]

I hope I never turn 14.

[walker 0]

What grossman says is not that you can train someone to decide to kill. His point is that that can almost never happen. What he says is that you can train someone to not make that decision under certain circumstances- to bypass that consideration using operant conditioning. Before and afterwards you can support and train the soldier to deal with and ameliorate the psychological consequences of his actions.

You can't train someone to decide to go out and get a sledge hammer and bash his sleeping father's head in. This is an abnormal response and there are many, many psychological factors that prevent people from doing this. This is an obvious sign of an abnormal, dissociative brain.

Autism also does not enable someone to kill. Psychiatric conditions are often comorbid, however autism itself is not and will never be a factor in a premeditated murder.

Hi Max Power

Operant Conditioning and its place in a kill

I would contend that as Grossman points out in his papers on the school killers, the action of using the weapon, where the fantasy is turned to action and the last of the societal and instinctive barriers to homicide is broken down is that part where "Games" have been shown to play a part but this has always been so; whether it is a predator cat giving its cubs a live baby antelope to play with, or children being given guns to play with. It is part of the desensitization process. Play and games have always been training tools and the multi billion dollar simulation training market is built on it.

I agree that you cannot use actual operant conditioning to cause some one to become a premeditated murder. The process it uses is one that short circuits the conscious centers of the brain and uses the Amygdala. Premeditated murder is by its very nature a conscious act, but it does not preclude the Amygdala being used or its playing a role in the culmination of bringing the premeditation to action.

Fear Flight and Freeze

Operant conditioning is used because the Amygdala is much faster in reaction than the conscious brain. That is its purpose, it is used for things like the instinctive Fear Flight and Freeze that protect humans from danger.

You do not need to think about the rhino charging, you need to run. When the bear comes into your cave you do not need to think about it, you need to pick up the burning stick and fight. When you reach out toward the root to pull yourself up on it and it turns out to be a giant f**ing cobra you dont need to think about it you need to freeze and slowly and carfully withdraw hand and rest of body from imediate vacinity for some time (personal experience on the passage up to Bamboo Lodge on the way to Anapurna base camp.)

With Operant Conditioning a person is induced or triggered to a state where the amygdala is in control, not their conscious. The persons actions normally are the instinctive Fear Flight and Freeze actions but with Operant Conditioning the person has had a conditioned response inserted in to replace those actions.

The same fear and perceived threat based process is what Flim Flam men use in their confidence tricks to get you to buy their pig in a poke. Whether it be some one selling you a change of utility supplier over the phone, or a used car salesman, or for grandpa/grandma to had over their savings and invest it in Acme Super Bonds! Also it is what Politicians use in elections: the old guy is a threat we need a change! The new guy is a threat to all you have now, stay with me!

Why humans find it hard to kill their own kind

Humans have instinctive and societal barriers to killing their own kin and kind, a species that does not is doomed to extinction. In fact the Army use operant conditioning because without it only about 25% of humans will shoot at the enemy even if they or their friends or family are under threat.

Many might fantasize they can be a cold blooded killer for revenge and to protect their family, friends and nation, but in reality few could be, without operant conditioning.

Military use of Operant Conditioning

The military use it to protect soldiers so that they react in the conditioned way when under threat in battle and using associative triggers so that they obey their superiors commands. Note this does not mean the conscious cannot mediate their actions it can, but it takes considerable effort and can only take place when the conscious has time to catch up, which may not be until after the Amygdala has already done the deed, this is the primary cause of much of the modern soldiers PTSD.

The negative effects of Operant Conditioning

Take a person who by evolution, psychology and socialisation is programmed not to kill their own species. Reprogram them, even with their consent, so that they will kill on command or instant reaction to events.

What kind of effect do you think breaking those evolutionary instincts and social taboos has on that 75% who so profoundly believe killing to be wrong?

There is guilt for killing another human being when all your evolution and upbringing tells you it is wrong and you are going to hell. That is what Operant Conditioning has done. It has shifted all those with the most profound resistance to killing their own kind into those who do it on trigger, just like Pavlov's dogs being triggered to salivate.

It was done with best intentions to protect them in the heat of battle. It was done so that they would do the job they signed up to do. It was done with their consent, but for all that, it still has its effect on the psyche.

There are consequences to Operant Conditioning:

Rising cases of PTSD. Suicides. Murder Rates. Mental illness rates. Marriage break ups. Homelessness. The problem is something that *now has the fancy term Perpetration-Induced Traumatic Stress; for the rest of us it comes under the simple term guilt.

Those human feelings of guilt are not turned off by Operant conditioning.

You have seen your self do horrible violence and you can feel those responses kicking-in, in family arguments or when a car backfires. How can you trust your self with loved ones?

No matter how you cut it, that is going to leave social scars of self loathing and fear of your self with others you love.

Comorbidity and pre existing conditions

In the matter of your argument about comorbidity, I pointed out that I think the existence of pre-existing condition is required for a person to be able choose a weapon and to continue to the point where the action is possible. I did not preclude other morbidities in the persons psyche. There is a form of "autistic psychopathy" that is associated with serial killers; there are several papers and books on this: Do a google search for "autistic psychopathy" "serial killers"

I also pointed out that the MK Ultra experiments found that it only worked as a method of creating assassins if they were with in the group of people with a pre existing condition and that they are the same type of targets that terrorists concentrate on in their recruiting for suicide bombers. These assassins are not the "Cleaner" type killers of a films like "Leon" they are already broken people who the handler uses as a one time throw away assassin.

Kind Regards walker

Edited April 18, 2010 by walker

[gulag 10]

Certainly not by hitting children can solve such problems, but it seems that in some countries is quite the opposite.

@dmakatra, maybe you were a good child, and that slapping I received after I was caught a second time, first time I received only a verbal warning.

But you know what is weird? in psychological test for recruitment this question was put:

„Have you ever thought to kill your father?â€

I was amazed by this question, my answer was: not, even if I received such disciplinary slapping, and believe me I was a trouble maker.

Education is very important, even with a little discipline applied at the right time, but depends on the nature of the child.

[[aps]gnat 28]

I dunno where you live, but where I live, violent crime has been dropping steadily the last 60 years.

Maybe, but when I was a kid I'd be in total fear of my parents and community if I even considered something like graffiti or staying out past dinner time or vandalising anything.

Thats whats changed since the "old days".

And dont say that stuff isnt relevant. Crime is crime, each a little step from the next escalation.

[max power 21]

...

Humans are not cats.

Autistic Psychopathy was a term coined by Hans Asperger, and does not appear as a classification in the DSM-IV, nor I think in the WHO's manual. What Asperger meant when he said 'Autistic Psychopathy' was someone who was introverted and had social and empathetic deficits, not someone with what we now call technically an 'antisocial personality'.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Max Power

[jblackrupert 14]

If hitting kids were a way to fix problems, then why was there crime at all in the old days?

I dunno where you live, but where I live, violent crime has been dropping steadily the last 60 years.

Probably because nobody bothers to report it anymore.