Dragon Rising has been released

[Bulldogs 10]

I admire what VGChartz do, but people often confuse it for actual sales figures. They are a statistical website that takes rough statistics on sales and creates sales figures out of them, and they have to do this since full sales figures are never fully released to the public.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

I admire what VGChartz do, but people often confuse it for actual sales figures. They are a statistical website that takes rough statistics on sales and creates sales figures out of them, and they have to do this since full sales figures are never fully released to the public.

right - it's not sell through

[ohara 0]

Yes, we are reading forums, it does not mean that we are always also writing. Its painfull many times, especially this one :)

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yes, we are reading forums, it does not mean that we are always also writing. Its painfull many times, especially this one :)

I don't understand why it's so painfull, as ArmA2, despite its flaws, is defended by most of the community members against the so called competitors. You should be proud of it.

[bascule42 10]

Maybe painful in the way it is to watch Ricky Gervias in the Office, or watching a collection of GW Bush's "best" moments. Painful, toe curlingly embarrassing, but comedy gold.

[ohara 0]

We are proud and feel satisfaction, just style of discusing is sometimes .... childish?

[jw custom 56]

We are proud and feel satisfaction, just style of discusing is sometimes .... childish?

So true and i'm already feeling guilty :p

[Tonci87 163]

Well what shall we say..... DR is also childish to me^^

You are the best, you know thst, we know that. CM never really had a chance.

[bascule42 10]

Dont know if this has been pointed out yet...CM careers page (linktastic)

Seems they are looking for among other things, a new director of marketing. rofl... Maybe CM think the PR for DR went a bit OTT.

78 positions in all, and I don't think they are expanding.

[Placebo 29]

We are proud and feel satisfaction, just style of discusing is sometimes .... childish?

[Scrub 0]

Dont know if this has been pointed out yet...CM careers page (linktastic)

Seems they are looking for among other things, a new director of marketing. rofl... Maybe CM think the PR for DR went a bit OTT.

78 positions in all, and I don't think they are expanding.

Can you say "Human Resources?" How about 'Toilet paper?" or maybe "Just a number?" Yes that would be big (only out for self-profit) business mentality. Sad but not at all surprising. I feel sad for those who get mashed into the gears of that corporate monster. Sell your soul.

[nettrucker 143]

We are proud and feel satisfaction, just style of discusing is sometimes .... childish?

You can be proud and feel satisfied. You are running your business considering the ethic aspect in a different manner. You take care of your community and your products naturally. Which reflects in constant improvements of the game. The only thing which makes me sad is that BIS is labeled for releasing buggy games, and believe me it's difficult to get rid of such rumors. I wish that the quality control of included campaigns and missions will be improved in future. I believe that bad pubblicity has driven away a lot of potential customers for ArmA II especially because the campaign had game breaking bugs. Now it's fixed. But that should have been done before release.

No comment on how discussions went in this thread it should have died a long time ago, but it's some kind of entertaining too.

kind regards

nettrucker:D

[eble 3]

I wish the developers would help me sometimes, as I often run into undocumented limitations, but there help is really just them running it through some type of extended debugger and giving me the output. then I find a work around to the issue I have encountered. So far they havent ever actually given me any code or anything. To be honest, half the time I wonder if they actually know anything about there own engine :p

They, the one you speak to probably don't know DR at all, DR has a well documented development period in which the whole dev team appears to have changed a few times.

In all honesty when you ask for help your probably speaking to the office junior.

Edited January 26, 2010 by southy

[walker 0]

Dont know if this has been pointed out yet...CM careers page (linktastic)

Seems they are looking for among other things, a new director of marketing. rofl... Maybe CM think the PR for DR went a bit OTT.

78 positions in all, and I don't think they are expanding.

Hi all

The problem is not Marketing, the problem is that the business model is flawed. Their business model is to get a good developer, re-brand the product so that the publisher in this case CM own it, drop the developer after the product is complete or if their tech is good ensure they fail so you can grab their tech. Then whore the brand with underpaid crap developers who think they are in on a good thing but will be removed around the time the product goes out the door, so they can then in their turn be replaced by another cheap development team. Rinse and repeat until the customer gets wise. Then change brands and rinse and repeat again and again add nauseum.

It is similar to the method used by certain types of music and film publisher.

That is what IMHO gave them the marketing equivalent of AIDS and why it has started to infect the whole brand. CM need to understand it is about Developers once you have a good development team you need to nurture it treat it well and pay it as your primary and most well paid resource and give them bonuses for good products and ideas.

The reason this ripoff business model now fails is Internet and places like this. In the past a publisher could control out put of information as sources were limited to media that was dependent on advertising money from the publishers. There were always a few good journalists but they are the exception and enough money can drown them out.

In the modern age we have YouTube, forums, IRC, Twitter, cable TV etc. It is just too much for the publisher based companies to cope with. I think that the publisher based business model may have had its day, we certainly see that in music which is its oldest form. Now the big companies are content providers like ITunes, in games it is Steam.

Pay your bean counters, human resources, marketing and sales team the going rate and no more. Use a template based computerised marketing, human resources, and accounting system on an easy to learn computerised system bring in a new team every year or two to drive down their costs, use part time temporary people for this business cost. Try to minimise it as much as possible. If they are not a continually reducing this percentage of business cost you are doing something wrong. Consider outsourcing this abroad to China, India or in the next few years Africa.

Put your developers in charge; make all support staff like marketing, accounting, human resources and the rest just that. They are not core business!

The real assets sit in front of development computers and go up and down in your lifts. Do not overwork them and burn them out. Let them be artists then they will produce their best work. Make them happy make sure they have no worries.

ABOVE ALL!

Make sure they are lead by some one with true vision but who can do the math. If the person in charge is not able communicate that vision continuously to all around and infuse them with same spirit, they are no good. If they cannot count CPU cycles and multiply in bandwidth bits, they are no good. A good basic test for this is: do they think Flaccid Dick physics works in multiplayer across continents or within a continent for more than about 8 entities. Any that do probably worked on DR.

Kind Regards walker

Edited January 26, 2010 by walker

[max power 21]

people playing MP, and people modding, have nothing to do with people buying the game. 20,000 sales per week is pretty good for something that is apparently so shit no one would want to play it

Well, you can never have enough firewood... I guess. :p

[Stryker_1 10]

Hi all

The problem is not Marketing, the problem is that the business model is flawed. Their business model is to get a good developer, re-brand the product so that the publisher in this case CM own it, drop the developer after the product is complete or if their tech is good ensure they fail so you can grab their tech. Then whore the brand with underpaid crap developers who think they are in on a good thing but will be removed around the time the product goes out the door, so they can then in their turn be replaced by another cheap development team. Rinse and repeat until the customer gets wise. Then change brands and rinse and repeat again and again add nauseum.

It is similar to the method used by certain types of music and film publisher.

That is what IMHO gave them the marketing equivalent of AIDS and why it has started to infect the whole brand. CM need to understand it is about Developers once you have a good development team you need to nurture it treat it well and pay it as your primary and most well paid resource and give them bonuses for good products and ideas.

The reason this ripoff business model now fails is Internet and places like this. In the past a publisher could control out put of information as sources were limited to media that was dependent on advertising money from the publishers. There were always a few good journalists but they are the exception and enough money can drown them out.

In the modern age we have YouTube, forums, IRC, Twitter, cable TV etc. It is just too much for the publisher based companies to cope with. I think that the publisher based business model may have had its day, we certainly see that in music which is its oldest form. Now the big companies are content providers like ITunes, in games it is Steam.

Pay your bean counters, human resources, marketing and sales team the going rate and no more. Use a template based computerised marketing, human resources, and accounting system on an easy to learn computerised system bring in a new team every year or two to drive down their costs, use part time temporary people for this business cost. Try to minimise it as much as possible. If they are not a continually reducing this percentage of business cost you are doing something wrong. Consider outsourcing this abroad to China, India or in the next few years Africa.

Put your developers in charge; make all support staff like marketing, accounting, human resources and the rest just that. They are not core business!

The real assets sit in front of development computers and go up and down in your lifts. Do not overwork them and burn them out. Let them be artists then they will produce their best work. Make them happy make sure they have no worries.

ABOVE ALL!

Make sure they are lead by some one with true vision but who can do the math. If the person in charge is not able communicate that vision continuously to all around and infuse them with same spirit, they are no good. If they cannot count CPU cycles and multiply in bandwidth bits, they are no good. A good basic test for this is: do they think Flaccid Dick physics works in multiplayer across continents or within a continent for more than about 8 entities. Any that do probably worked on DR.

Kind Regards walker

Nah, can't entirely agree with you on this one. A company needs all components (good team to be successful). Your point about the artists, developers etc....is valid and I agree. The issue with CM and DR was based on false marketing. They made promises that the developers could not fill. Here is a point for me. If I was to advocate a product and market something that was to be a sequel to Operation Flashpoint, I would have conviction in BIS being the developer and I would feel more confident in selling it. Why? Because they were the original developers and it was successful. CM gambled on the name and the promises, screen shots, trailors. None of it was delivered. No way would I put any weight into CM. The fine line here is that in business, you have to sell and market, but the thing is man, you better deliver. The customer is king and they'll let you know. I wanted DR to be a good thing and I was sold on it, but as far as I am concerned they did not deliver. I agree that the talent lies within the team members of the project. But it is also the talent of marketing to reach your audience. Just don't exaggerate and lie to a point like CM did with DR, you'll get caught and it'll bite you in the rear.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Stryker_1

[walker 0]

Hi Stryker_1

I disagree.

IMHO the key part is that is what the CM Business Model became as I said :

This is what IMHO their business model became:

1) To get a good developer.

2) Re-brand the product so that the publisher in this case CM own it,

3 a) Drop the developer after the product is complete

3 b) Or if their tech is good lock them into a contract that obliges them to produce but not for the publisher to publish or even advertise then ensure they fail so you can grab their tech.

4) Then whore the brand with underpaid crap developers who think they are in on a good thing and will accept a low wage for jam tomorrow

5) Advertise the crap out of it

6) Remove the developer around the time the product goes out the door, hence no jam tomorrow

7) Replaced that team another cheap development team.

8) Rinse and repeat until the customer gets wise.

9) Then change brands and rinse and repeat again and again add nauseum.

It is similar to the method used by certain types of music and film publishers.

A canny developer like many a modern musician realises they do not need all that anymore.

As to the over valuing of non core business; there was a time when marketing was a rare art practiced by a few skilled people in a narrow select environment of specialist magazines over G&T or dinner with just a few important contacts but nowadays anyone can do it from a PC anywhere in the world all you need is a database of contacts and good communications skills. All the press releases and art work ditto are easy in Office and screen shots from the game.

One person can do the work of what was a department along with some support staff who can come from any where in the world at a tenth of the cost.

Ditto bean counters and that Anathema, Human Resources where it is all down to a good accounts package Crystal reports, Seagate Analysis or some other OLAP program and SAP.

The core business for developing games is developers anything else is just a business cost.

As I pointed out CM follows the outmoded dinosaur publisher business model. Ask EMI how that is working out in the Internet era.

There is a future in being a service provider to content developer companies, that is what ITunes and Steam are. They have realised the power is now with the developer. BIS might also move to that if the realise they are a Shovel Shop in the Gold Rush and stop risking all on panning for gold. Eventually some engine developer will realise this or an open source engine will do it. The Game Engine Developer that realises it will be to game development what Microsoft are to OS and Office software or what Google are to Search or what ITunes is to music or Steam are to publishing.

Kind Regards walker

Edited January 27, 2010 by walker

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

[/img]

I got the joke

[rowdied 44]

Hi all

The problem is not Marketing, the problem is that the business model is flawed. Their business model is to get a good developer, re-brand the product so that the publisher in this case CM own it, drop the developer after the product is complete or if their tech is good ensure they fail so you can grab their tech. Then whore the brand with underpaid crap developers who think they are in on a good thing but will be removed around the time the product goes out the door, so they can then in their turn be replaced by another cheap development team. Rinse and repeat until the customer gets wise. Then change brands and rinse and repeat again and again add nauseum.

It is similar to the method used by certain types of music and film publisher.

That is what IMHO gave them the marketing equivalent of AIDS and why it has started to infect the whole brand. CM need to understand it is about Developers once you have a good development team you need to nurture it treat it well and pay it as your primary and most well paid resource and give them bonuses for good products and ideas.

The reason this ripoff business model now fails is Internet and places like this. In the past a publisher could control out put of information as sources were limited to media that was dependent on advertising money from the publishers. There were always a few good journalists but they are the exception and enough money can drown them out.

In the modern age we have YouTube, forums, IRC, Twitter, cable TV etc. It is just too much for the publisher based companies to cope with. I think that the publisher based business model may have had its day, we certainly see that in music which is its oldest form. Now the big companies are content providers like ITunes, in games it is Steam.

Pay your bean counters, human resources, marketing and sales team the going rate and no more. Use a template based computerised marketing, human resources, and accounting system on an easy to learn computerised system bring in a new team every year or two to drive down their costs, use part time temporary people for this business cost. Try to minimise it as much as possible. If they are not a continually reducing this percentage of business cost you are doing something wrong. Consider outsourcing this abroad to China, India or in the next few years Africa.

Put your developers in charge; make all support staff like marketing, accounting, human resources and the rest just that. They are not core business!

The real assets sit in front of development computers and go up and down in your lifts. Do not overwork them and burn them out. Let them be artists then they will produce their best work. Make them happy make sure they have no worries.

ABOVE ALL!

Make sure they are lead by some one with true vision but who can do the math. If the person in charge is not able communicate that vision continuously to all around and infuse them with same spirit, they are no good. If they cannot count CPU cycles and multiply in bandwidth bits, they are no good. A good basic test for this is: do they think Flaccid Dick physics works in multiplayer across continents or within a continent for more than about 8 entities. Any that do probably worked on DR.

Kind Regards walker

Well said and so true. you only need to look at EA who employ this exact model. How do i know? My bro worked for them for years. He used to tell me stories that would make me piss my pants laughing at how they ran EA Canada. I wanted him to use a hidden camera when he went to work so he could put it on youtube and share it. Trust me, my brother wouldn't know what funny was if it slapped him upside the head. Tragic in the epic sense.

[MrBump 10]

vgchartz only provide estimates based on data from a few big retailers with the rest a projection. They do not reflect real over the counter sales or for that matter if those original buyers are still playing the game.

They are useful for spotting trends, but the data regarding units shipped will be way out from the real over the counter sales.

Yep also it would seem templargfx is being a little disingenuous here too, it's pretty clear if you use the region filters that those increase sales estimates come from the game being recently released in Japan...

[bascule42 10]

Yes, the creative aspect of and development company needs to recognised as the most valuable. These still need to be led by someone with a damn good grasp of business. I think this was the problem with a lot of start-up developers in the past, including the founding members of CM. They didn't pay enough heed to the main idea behind a business. To make money. And so were quickly swallowed up by people who do know about business, but also had no clue about the games industry. Then we get the modern day CM strategy.

IMO, a holistic approach needs to be taken in so far as each department, each role, needs to be recognised as being just as important as the next. Top notch lead designers and programmers are only going to have a job for so long in a given company if the accounting dept is second rate. Same if the CEO hasn't got clue how to steer the company into profitville.

Human resources can drop off the face of the earth ne'er to return.

Back on topic - to paraphrase Tim Bisley from SPACED. "Dragon Rising is a big pile of poo".

[Bulldogs 10]

I forgot to add that point, that dr was just released in japan recently, so that caused a spike in sales.

[Stryker_1 10]

Yes, the creative aspect of and development company needs to recognised as the most valuable. These still need to be led by someone with a damn good grasp of business. I think this was the problem with a lot of start-up developers in the past, including the founding members of CM. They didn't pay enough heed to the main idea behind a business. To make money. And so were quickly swallowed up by people who do know about business, but also had no clue about the games industry. Then we get the modern day CM strategy.

IMO, a holistic approach needs to be taken in so far as each department, each role, needs to be recognised as being just as important as the next. Top notch lead designers and programmers are only going to have a job for so long in a given company if the accounting dept is second rate. Same if the CEO hasn't got clue how to steer the company into profitville.

Human resources can drop off the face of the earth ne'er to return.

Back on topic - to paraphrase Tim Bisley from SPACED. "Dragon Rising is a big pile of poo".

Well said, that is the big picture. Right people in the right roles. Let the programmers build the engine, while the story is done by a great author and the artists do their magic with the graphics, and let the other roles bring in the money to make more games....there is a synergy going on here.

Dr didn't have the above formula, they missed on the graphics, technical (console port) and story, lame product brought to market.

[froggyluv 2136]

Pretty quite after their big 2nd patch release :j:

Tried it with one of their new mission -sat on a hill and cleared a bunch of outposts without the enemy returning one shot though they clearly saw me. Do those Dev's even test drive this thing?

...done with that. Too much fun to be had with Arma2 and if I want some variety Hollywood style, I'll wait and see if BF2BC is any good.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

Pretty quite after their big 2nd patch release :j:

Tried it with one of their new mission -sat on a hill and cleared a bunch of outposts without the enemy returning one shot though they clearly saw me. Do those Dev's even test drive this thing?

...done with that. Too much fun to be had with Arma2 and if I want some variety Hollywood style, I'll wait and see if BF2BC is any good.

If you engage DR AI outside of 200 meters, they won't do a thing. Just look at you.