ArmA II: Operation Arrowhead discussion thread

[Defunkt 431]

Well, I suppose that would depend on what you want to achieve with render to texture but okay, congratulations on getting this far.

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

Something else that occurs to me about one particular use of render-to-texture, specifically 3D weapon optics (some might say the Holy Grail of render-to-texture), is that they surely shouldn't actually require the scene to be rendered twice. Rather it should simply be rendered once at the widest FOV (ideally but not necessarily to a larger than normal resolution) and then a portion of that same scene is simply re-written to a 3D surface at a larger scale. TBH I feel a bit stupid that it's taken so long for this to dawn on me. As far as I can see, 3D scopes and vehicle instrumentation should be entirely possible.

[dmarkwick 261]

Something else that occurs to me about one particular use of render-to-texture, specifically 3D weapon optics (some might say the Holy Grail of render-to-texture), is that they surely shouldn't actually require the scene to be rendered twice. Rather it should simply be rendered once at the widest FOV (ideally but not necessarily to a larger than normal resolution) and then a portion of that same scene is simply re-written to a 3D surface at a larger scale. TBH I feel a bit stupid that it's taken so long for this to dawn on me. As far as I can see, 3D scopes and vehicle instrumentation should be entirely possible.

Would still need to be rendered twice because of LoD issues.

[Defunkt 431]

I don't follow, LOD is just a decision about which model detail level to render, the resulting frame can still be re-written at differing scales. It might be desirable to use a higher LOD than would ordinarily be applied at the widest FOV but it's not essential and still ought to be more efficient than rendering (and processing occlusion etc) two scenes.

---------- Post added at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

For that matter it seems feasible to me that it might weight the LOD selection based on whether the object will appear in the up-scaled image (i.e. it is within a certain radius of screen center).

[dmarkwick 261]

I don't follow, LOD is just a decision about which model detail level to render, the resulting frame can still be re-written at differing scales. It might be desirable to use a higher LOD than would ordinarily be applied at the widest FOV but it's not essential and still ought to be more efficient than rendering (and processing occlusion etc) two scenes.

---------- Post added at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

For that matter it seems feasible to me that it might weight the LOD selection based on whether the object will appear in the up-scaled image (i.e. it is within a certain radius of screen center).

Well, no it's not simply an issue of what model level to render, when I say LoD I mean the whole gamut of scaling methodologies used. Models, textures, shadows, animations etc. I think that any way you look at it, there's an overhead of some kind that generally means that there isn't a shortcut. I'm not saying that it's not possible, I'm just saying that there will always be a minimum amount of extra effort. It's a matter of justification, application, technical limits etc. I'm sure one day a graphic card/graphic API will come out that has a built-in function for this, meaning that any game will be able to apply it without penalty.

[max power 21]

I don't think that as far as the graphics card is concerned, that one resolution mesh is the same as another resolution mesh from the same p3d. For, say, MFDD cameras or flir or nv scopes, I think you still have to render 2 scenes with 2 light sources and two iterations of the same meshes. If one view is flir and the other is not, depending on how they are rendering flir this time, one scene would have to be day and the other would have to be set to night time. At any rate, there would need to be 2 different kinds of post processing for each scene. I'm not sure about just plain telescopes. Can you get a model to pop from one LOD to another depending on whether or not they are being occluded by the player's magnifying telescope mesh? Wouldn't their polygons be culled ordinarily if they were being occluded by something?

[myshaak 0]

I don't mean to play a moderator here but could you guys take this render to texture stuff elsewhere, please? It has been discussed numerous times and we all would like to see this sweet feature in game, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who checks this thread regularly in hope to see some news about the expansion and sees walls of (let's face it) unrelated text instead. Not only the feature was not confirmed, it has never been mention by developers before, as far a I know. Therefore - addon/suggestion section.

[Flash Thunder 10]

ROBOT AI

Nice...

I put the game on recruit, put the enemy skill to 15 percent which is n00b level, yet they still shoot me through houses, always know where im at, are super ROBOTIC, survive a burst round to the torso and still pull of a milisecond 180 spin and a mow down on me some type of AK.

Im about to burry this game, no joke at all, if I cant get the AI to play even remotely fair, then why should I waste my time even making missions etc, Did BIS somehow just not notice that the AI is just horrendous in this game?

Jeez im pissed, just got off this robotic non sense, spend 3 hours making some missions and cant even play them because its impossibly difficult.

If anybody wants proof Ill just film afew games off my monitor, ill stop repeating myself seeing how almost everyone on here has probably put me on their ignore list for acting as a "wanting Tike"

:mad:

I dont care for PVP in Arma im a lonewolf, i like playing against AI so that pretty much will be the only factor if I buy OA or not.

[Defunkt 431]

For, say, MFDD cameras or flir or nv scopes, I think you still have to render 2 scenes with 2 light sources and two iterations of the same meshes. If one view is flir and the other is not, depending on how they are rendering flir this time, one scene would have to be day and the other would have to be set to night time. At any rate, there would need to be 2 different kinds of post processing for each scene. I'm not sure about just plain telescopes. Can you get a model to pop from one LOD to another depending on whether or not they are being occluded by the player's magnifying telescope mesh? Wouldn't their polygons be culled ordinarily if they were being occluded by something?

Nothing I'm mulling here would be any help at all with camera views (i.e. a second picture-in-picture view centred on a separate point) FLIR etc included. I don't see that there's any way around rendering both views entirely and for this reason I imagine such views would continue to be full screen only. However with a 3D scope view you have two different FOV's sharing the same origin so there I'm wondering if it would be possible to construct a single frame which could serve both purposes and portions scaled up or down when written to an output buffer. The primary determinant for LOD is presumably distance but within a certain radius of the viewport center (i.e. that portion of the output that would be zoomed) the magnification could be be factored into that selection.

[dmarkwick 261]

ROBOT AI

Nice...

I put the game on recruit, put the enemy skill to 15 percent which is n00b level, yet they still shoot me through houses, always know where im at, are super ROBOTIC, survive a burst round to the torso and still pull of a milisecond 180 spin and a mow down on me some type of AK.

Im about to burry this game, no joke at all, if I cant get the AI to play even remotely fair, then why should I waste my time even making missions etc, Did BIS somehow just not notice that the AI is just horrendous in this game?

Jeez im pissed, just got off this robotic non sense, spend 3 hours making some missions and cant even play them because its impossibly difficult.

If anybody wants proof Ill just film afew games off my monitor, ill stop repeating myself seeing how almost everyone on here has probably put me on their ignore list for acting as a "wanting Tike"

:mad:

I dont care for PVP in Arma im a lonewolf, i like playing against AI so that pretty much will be the only factor if I buy OA or not.

I think the reason you perceive people ignoring you is that most people don't actually see this activity. I know I certainly don't. IMO the AI don't act unfair, they act fair. I may be what you don't like about the AI, IMO the AI shouldn't be restricted to dumb line-of-sight logic enabling players to always use the same tactic, the AI should employ similar predictive tactics similar to players.

Look at it like this: the AI should be as good as you, otherwise it falls into the role of ego-shooter like other games. You should be dying as much as the average AI should be, unless you're able to out-think them, which surely you should be ;)

[Tonci87 163]

Flash Thunder, ever heard about FADE?

[walker 0]

Flash Thunder, ever heard about FADE?

Hi Tonci87

Ah Yes indeed Hmm.

Flash Thunder does seem to be suffering an interesting set of syptoms. :D

Kind Regards walker

[Placebo 28]

I don't mean to play a moderator here but could you guys take this render to texture stuff elsewhere, please? It has been discussed numerous times and we all would like to see this sweet feature in game, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who checks this thread regularly in hope to see some news about the expansion and sees walls of (let's face it) unrelated text instead. Not only the feature was not confirmed, it has never been mention by developers before, as far a I know. Therefore - addon/suggestion section.

Well said that man, if you want to discuss such things start a new thread for them please, this is for Operation Arrowhead, no more, no less :)

[Flash Thunder 10]

Flash Thunder, ever heard about FADE?

I shouldn't have gotten FADE in anyway, I bought a retail copy of A2 in early september I believe at my local bestbuy.

I have an NA region copy by Idea games/got game entertainment. ;)

Anyways about my raging AI talk on the last page, please BIS put AI in high priority for Operation Arrowhead.

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 AM ----------

I think the reason you perceive people ignoring you is that most people don't actually see this activity. I know I certainly don't. IMO the AI don't act unfair, they act fair. I may be what you don't like about the AI, IMO the AI shouldn't be restricted to dumb line-of-sight logic enabling players to always use the same tactic, the AI should employ similar predictive tactics similar to players.

Look at it like this: the AI should be as good as you, otherwise it falls into the role of ego-shooter like other games. You should be dying as much as the average AI should be, unless you're able to out-think them, which surely you should be ;)

I know plenty about tactics alright that has nothing to do what im talking about, I've been to bootcamp and when I go paintballing with my buds in the USMC etc, we all use pure military tactics, amazing stuff. :D

Im only concerned about the fact how the AI can hear just a tiny bit of movement, do a 180 SPIN, and instantly mow you down from any range in ANY STANCE!

Let me state that this has nothing to do with my tactics, or how I play the game at all, this is a critical bug/design issue.

Also being shot through corners of houses/buildings when I have no body exposed, getting shot through walls in general, AI walking through all kinds of buildings/concrete walls etc.

The lack of any reaction time with all AI, they can snipe you out of Helo cockpits, snipe you with a small burst of tank MG from 800 meters away!!

The AI never "scan horizon" they never conpensate for any kind of condition, No bullet drop with AI that i've seen, they dont make mistakes, they're perfect "terminator" esque Robots!

Note I never asked BIS to nerf the AI, and make them complete morons like in Dragon Rising, and have tunnel vision for LOS, they just need to be less accurate, make mistakes, conpensate for conditions/distance, not be able to snipe you in the pitch black, especially when you're on your stomach in the bushes, see through vegitation, snipe you, snipe you out of Helos, walk and shoot through walls.

BIS AI is far from what I read on the back of my box "Advanced"

And it really pisses me off that when I spend about 10 minutes flanking a group on patrol shoot one bullet in the pitch black, and they all do this,

STOP+DROP+180+SNIPE= Me dead and pissed off!

Can anyone relate to this at all? I know I have seen plenty of videos (like richieSpeed) where they're are using pure stealth and shoot one guy and then out of nowhere your whole damn squad is annihilated.

PS: No I dont have FADE, I bought the game and everything else works fine, except the performance of the game itself.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Flash Thunder

[Tonci87 163]

Anyways about my raging AI talk on the last page, please BIS put AI in high priority for Operation Arrowhead.

Sign this^^

@ Flash Thunder, I suggest you get yourself Zeus AI and adjust the enemy AI as suggested, don´t play on Veteran Mode, (I have experienced really weird Stuff with that [AI with X-Ray Vision])

[Deadfast 43]

We must be playing different games, Flash.

[Flash Thunder 10]

Sign this^^

@ Flash Thunder, I suggest you get yourself Zeus AI and adjust the enemy AI as suggested, don´t play on Veteran Mode, (I have experienced really weird Stuff with that [AI with X-Ray Vision])

last couple sessions have all been on "N00b" mode Recruit enemy skill level set to 15% hmmmm,

settings dont work apparently?

@Deadfast, why is that?

Did you reprogram the AI on your free time? :j:

[Deadfast 43]

@Deadfast, why is that?

Did you reprogram the AI on your free time? :j:

No, my AI simply never does any of the stuff you described.

Sure, it does screw up, but I have yet to see a guy turn around and shoot me in the head through 1 house, 2 walls, a hill and 50 bushes.

AI seeing through houses, let alone shooting through them is simply impossible.

[Flash Thunder 10]

No, my AI simply never does any of the stuff you described.

Sure, it does screw up, but I have yet to see a guy turn around and shoot me in the head through 1 house, 2 walls, a hill and 50 bushes.

AI seeing through houses, let alone shooting through them is simply impossible.

alright ill have to show some proof, will post some videos soon.

I cant believe this... (link to vids will soon be in my signature)

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah please make a vid, this sounds really strange

[max power 21]

alright ill have to show some proof, will post some videos soon.

I cant believe this... (link to vids will soon be in my signature)

Maybe it's your performance issues that are causing you trouble? A long time ago I remember Maruk or Suma saying that the AI are at least partly frame dependent and they may start acting up if the frame rate is too low. This was for ArmA 1.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Maybe it's your performance issues that are causing you trouble? A long time ago I remember Maruk or Suma saying that the AI are at least partly frame dependent and they may start acting up if the frame rate is too low. This was for ArmA 1.

Even then shooting through walls would be impossible. :rolleyes:

[max power 21]

Even then shooting through walls would be impossible. :rolleyes:

Bullets penetrate walls in ArmA 2. Especially high calibre ones. I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Bullets penetrate walls in ArmA 2. Especially high calibre ones. I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

Most houses are full blocks though, afaik bullets do not penetrate those buildings.

Though i could be mistaken i guess. To be honest ive only been shot trough 'fences', and even that was very rare.

[Defunkt 431]

Good job we got back on topic. :biggrin:

[enad 11]

Things like Flash Thunder is explaining also occur for me from time to time.

The AI can be complete All-knowing terminator haxorz or complete noobs. Its annoying.

I mean sometimes, I'll be with my squad and we get opened up on by some guys 400 meters away, We can see them clearly but my team just continues to crawl around, never shooting back at them, just crawling...THEN they decide to use their hacks. This one mission I made, It was PITCH black and I was too sneak up on a team of Insurgents(No NVG's btw) and they were gathered around a fire. I was COMPLETELY invisible, I take one shot with my silenced M110, killing one, the rest drop to the ground and automatically see me in the PITCH BLACK DARKNESS. and start inaccurately opening fire, most would assume this is fine because they are just assuming it came from this direction, but when I started to crouch run away from their fire and they followed me with their bullets, I got pissed. There is no way in hell the would have any idea that I was moving. After I killed them all I go to their position and look into the darkness where I took the first shot...Nothing, It was black. Couldn't see a thing. How they do this? I don't know. I also noticed that either AI can see thru wall or their hearing is just Overly sensitive. I cant even slow crouch walk or slow crawl next to a wall without a nearby AI on the otherside, following my exact movements with the barrel of his gun pointing right at me. Its annoying. I also say that AI should be NUMBER ONE PRIORITY for Operation Arrowhead. I mean AI isnt bad right now but the way they react in close quarters is TOTALLY unacceptable and if the game will be taking place in such an area where Urban combat is the most common type of engagments, then they REALLY need to rework the AI and make them...

• Able to enter houses
  
• Shoot through windows
  
• Possibly breach houses(with the help of the command menu)
  
• NOT see other AI or Players through walls, or hear them.
  
• Smoother animations
  

Cmon, who doesn't agree.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Enad