The all new: Ask a moderator about the forum & rules

[Sniperwolf572 758]

If you could for a second ignore the fact that I'm a mod here, and consider me a neutral party that would like this to be resolved in an acceptable way for both parties. I'm asking this as I'm not in tune with what's been going on regarding this ever since the Sniper Skull's original thread was over.

I might be taking crazy pills here and it might be a stretch, but maybe there should be an open discussion regarding this and an agreement on a set of rules and expectations for that kind of a thread that would benefit both camps.

My personal opinion on this is that the current system is a bit off-putting because of the two-thread separation which makes it hard to have context and continuity.

From what I can see, what was bad about the original threads, is that rules were established on the fly and were never "official", even when Max made the second thread and at that point he wasn't in a position to enforce them as he is now. Eventually, it was a pain thread for the mods because there was never an "official" set of rules and expectations like there is for most special threads on the forums now.

Now, considering A&M: D allows all kinds of threads in for projects in all kinds of stages, I'm wondering if people have just altered their mentality and moved onto just making threads for their projects where feedback and discussion is about that specific thing compared to one thread where work can go unnoticed due to other "more popular" WIP's. Why would one compete for feedback anyway? If this is true, it would mean that even the older style format might not be as popular as it used to before, and raises my suspicion if we should even have those threads in any format.

On a positive note, one of the good things that happened over time since the old threads were shut down is that community has taken a larger role in self-policing with the report button, which would probably, with clear rules, make hunting for offenders in such thread an easier job. While I'm not saying that this is something that's for granted to eliminate the problem for the mods, it's one of the things to consider.

Take this as a suggestion for a way that you guys might resolve this issue in a civil manner.

[max power 21]

I think the demands of the old thread were quite clearly made, over and over. W0lle used to say that they need a moderator just for that thread, and when I got to be a moderator, I really saw how true that is. Not only was there a problem with proper usage, but also what exactly 'wip' meant, how that thread is different than the photography threads, and when is it appropriate to make your own thread vs. post in that one, etc. I, for one, am not willing to go on the warpath and start issuing infractions over something that I don't even clearly understand. It takes too much time and effort to philosophize over how the meanings of vague words or concepts apply to each case specifically. And, I find that if the path isn't carefully chosen, moderation can seem inconsistent, which is even more confusing to users. And then, there are the newbs, who seemed to show up to the thread specifically to get infractions for spamming or other reasons, like you said, while competing for comments.

I think the reason the new threads are off putting is because they are not the old thread. If the community doesn't want to take the opportunity to use those or give a sensible suggestion that is not the old way of doing things, then that is what they choose.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, i see now how difficult it is to moderate such a topic. But isn't it possible to create such a topic where any picture of upcoming addons could be discussed, as long as the addon isn't released yet, even if those pictures are already posted in some dedicated topic of the "addon discussion" subforum ? We could understand this topic as a free discussion place with loose rules, in order to promote addon/model making as a whole ?

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Well, i see now how difficult it is to moderate such a topic. But isn't it possible to create such a topic where any picture of upcoming addons could be discussed, as long as the addon isn't released yet, even if those pictures are already posted in some dedicated topic of the "addon discussion" subforum ? We could understand this topic as a free discussion place with loose rules, in order to promote addon/model making as a whole ?

Isn't that kinda self deprecating thing? Needlessly duplicating content and splitting the discussion? I'm not sure why would one do this? A dedicated A&M: D thread is already abiding by the "loose" rules, hell, you don't even have to show a picture, only express that you are working on it.

Dedicated thread for things you work on is also easier for everyone to find, follow, bookmark, get notified of. Compare that to digging through a single thread dedicated to all kinds of things and following 5 discussions relating 5 different pictures from 5 different people.

Am I missing something big here that warrants existence of such a thread besides "so I don't have to make a new thread"?

[abs 2]

I don't see how splitting it up into two threads makes it easier to moderate, since you have twice the places to look at now.

I still think it was better the old way, as people quoted posts, and you could basically red it from page to page.

As of right now, there is no correlation between both threads. People say "Nice work, X", then you have to go and search the first thread to see what they hell they're talking about. It's the reason I never look at the screenshot comment thread either. It doesn't flow, and is a pain in the ass to read.

Abs

[W0lle 1046]

I have to agree with Abs here. A "WIP" thread, and a thread where you discuss the WIP makes no sense. It's definitely easier to manage one thread.

It just needs a few basic rules set to prevent spam messages like "can't wait" etc.

[max power 21]

Well, there isn't a wip thread with two parts currently. There's an upcoming mods thread where you can post pretty much what you want. Why is that more difficult than a photography thread with two parts? We did enforce the no spam rules in that thread but day after day, more spam and dancing bananas.

Why do we have two parts for the photography threads at any rate? Is it so you don't have to dig through mountains of crap to get to what you actually want to look at?

Edited January 24, 2013 by Max Power

[abs 2]

Well, there isn't a wip thread with two parts currently. There's an upcoming mods thread where you can post pretty much what you want. Why is that more difficult than a photography thread with two parts? We did enforce the no spam rules in that thread but day after day, more spam and dancing bananas.

Why do we have two parts for the photography threads at any rate? Is it so you don't have to dig through mountains of crap to get to what you actually want to look at?

There are two parts. Upcoming Addons/Mods - NO DISCUSSION, and the Upcoming Addons/Mods - DISCUSSION.

The intents here are different. With the photography thread, people just wanted to see pretty screenshots. It was annoying to see the link show that there was a new post just to see someone say "wow." or another useless post. With the previous WIP thread, people were looking to get feedback, or even "pimp" their addons out as the original creator of the thread intended. People didn't go there just to look at the pretty screenshots, but to engage in conversation about addons that weren't ready for their own dedicated threads yet.

Using the split thread logic, the next time I have an addon to show perhaps I'll post two threads too; one to show my updates, and one for people to comment on my updates.

Abs

[W0lle 1046]

Well, there isn't a wip thread with two parts currently. There's an upcoming mods thread where you can post pretty much what you want. Why is that more difficult than a photography thread with two parts? We did enforce the no spam rules in that thread but day after day, more spam and dancing bananas.

And what is the difference between "upcoming Mods" and "Mods/Work in progress"? The intention there is not only to show upcoming work but also get (valuable) opinions from others. And if I would show my stuff there I would find it annoying to post in two threads. The old WIP thread wasn't so bad, you usually seen the response to your pictures on one or two pages. Now you must check the discussion thread and find out which reply is about your work.

Why do we have two parts for the photography threads at any rate? Is it so you don't have to dig through mountains of crap to get to what you actually want to look at?

Because as Abs said, the intention there is to show people pictures made in the game. There is not so much to discuss at all and feedback usually isn't wanted either. If there are questions then it's usually "What addon/terrain this is" etc. and even these questions would not deserve an extra thread but could be asked by PM.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

...People didn't go there just to look at the pretty screenshots, but to engage in conversation about addons that weren't ready for their own dedicated threads yet....

While I'm pro-single thread, I still don't see the reason for it at all, at what point is it more beneficial to even post in either variant of such thread?

There are already great many examples in the current A&M: D that don't even have a single screenshot, but basically, just intention and it's a perfectly legal and encouraged thread in A&M: D.

Here are some examples of the ones on the front page, check the initial post.

Franze / NodUnit - AH-64 addon - Text with the plan for the addon

hetsar - WW1 Mod - Text with the plan for the mod

h34dup - Algerian Special Forces - Text with the plan for the addon / Reference pictures

These threads started around the idea, the thing that doesn't even FIT into a WIP thread (too early), and it's still a better format than any kind of WIP thread, because they're using forums as they're meant to be used - As a single threaded discussion, instead of a thread of discussion with other multiple threads of discussion intertwined.

Many other threads started like this aswell, but eventually authors desiced to update their original post to reflect the current state of it or were at some point moved into A&M: C.

[abs 2]

While I'm pro-single thread, I still don't see the reason for it at all, at what point is it more beneficial to even post in either variant of such thread?

One reason would be to get feedback from other addonmakers, as evidenced by the way people would offer advice. No offense to the particular mod maker, but I do not care about Algerian special forces and would not visit that thread because it doesn't interest me so if he asked for help or tips from other modmakers I and others wouldn't see it. If he was just starting out and did that in the WIP thread, then all the people who visited that thread would have helped.

Another reason can be compared to the addons and mods request thread as a catchall. Before the request thread was created, that forum was flooded with people requesting everything. Modders who aren't quite ready to dedicate themselves to updating a dedicated thread can pop in and show their work and get advice from the single WIP thread.

Regardless of the reasons why, the single thread worked far better than the current set up. It was easier to read, had all the posts in one easy to find thread, and was quite popular. Like Gnat, I still think it should be brought back.

Abs

[PuFu 4591]

I am with abs and Wolle on this one. And while I do understand some of the reasons behind Max wanting to keep 3 different threads, and i understand the scope set: a place to get feedback and start a discussion from other knowledgeable people around those forums over pimping or showing off your work, i don't necessary agree:

1. The current system is intimidating and vague. The gap between discussion and show off thread is a bit too much, and it stands no comparison, at least in my mind, with the picture thread, mainly because they cover completely different aspects of this game

2. While creating your own thread for a certain project is what everyone should eventually end up doing, there are people, such as myself, who consider that such a thread deserves its place when the author is certain that this will end up in the game. That said, i for one have no such thread for any of my existing personal projects. Why, simply because there is a chance they are not gonna see A2 anythime soon, maybe A3 if my schedule remains the same. That said all those models i started and are currently in different wip stages, from a low-res model to ones that have one game model and one high poly and textures baked and so forth, they are all intended for BI games.

So in theory, they could belong to a wip/feedback/teaser thread, although i am rarely searching for someone's else opinion, and when i do, i ask directly that particular person.

What i am trying to say, the current form is obviously not really working, if at all. Now, for A3 arrival, there should be a better structure than the current one if you ask me. Just like with the modelling subforum section. It should be a bit more generic, focusing on a bit more than solely O2. There could be a place there for such feedback and technical discussion Max is trying to get from the current 3 wip-sort-of threads, as well as general talk on a wider modelling/texturing etc etc subjects. I know of all the specific skype channels, and i am member in some. That said, while the obvious pluses are obvious, for someone who has limited amount of time, a forum is still easier to search for a particular problem, easier to find a certain topic, and easier to follow than an up and down scroll, and a history that can sometimes play you.

To conclude: i feel that a closer to the older style WIP thread is wanted, and, even with all the problems it makes, it is a better form than what we have now. The technical discussion could be dealt with in a wider and more general modelling section (in fact it could have a subsection for generic areas such as modelling texturing, where some could write tips and tricks or cover a certain and specific technic outside of BIS tools). Of course you could always put a poll up regarding the former WIP thread, which i actually miss. I am sure i am not the only one who has this feeling. It was nice to see teasers in different stages from different people and make an idea of what other people besides your friends are doing in their free time for this game.

Many other threads started like this aswell

A lot more have been abandoned long time ago. ;)

[max power 21]

And what is the difference between "upcoming Mods" and "Mods/Work in progress"? The intention there is not only to show upcoming work but also get (valuable) opinions from others. And if I would show my stuff there I would find it annoying to post in two threads. The old WIP thread wasn't so bad, you usually seen the response to your pictures on one or two pages. Now you must check the discussion thread and find out which reply is about your work.

Just like in all the other threads that are in two parts.

One reason would be to get feedback from other addonmakers, as evidenced by the way people would offer advice. No offense to the particular mod maker, but I do not care about Algerian special forces and would not visit that thread because it doesn't interest me so if he asked for help or tips from other modmakers I and others wouldn't see it. If he was just starting out and did that in the WIP thread, then all the people who visited that thread would have helped.

I guess if he's having trouble, under how it is currently, he would post in the workshop thread.

Another reason can be compared to the addons and mods request thread as a catchall. Before the request thread was created, that forum was flooded with people requesting everything. Modders who aren't quite ready to dedicate themselves to updating a dedicated thread can pop in and show their work and get advice from the single WIP thread.

Right, and all the other users can post dancing bananas and fill the thread so full of useless crap that you have to spend 4 pages reading before you come back to something remotely worth your while. The alternative that we went away from was to spend all day giving infractions for people posting compliments.

Regardless of the reasons why, the single thread worked far better than the current set up. It was easier to read, had all the posts in one easy to find thread, and was quite popular. Like Gnat, I still think it should be brought back.

Abs

Perhaps it worked better for you.... And let's be honest, usually I'm pretty happy to run around telling people off or helping people out or issuing an infraction here or there. This thread was such a monster and there was posts at such a rate that to try to keep track of it took up quite a chunk of time. Time that could be better used solving other problems. This was to the point where moderators were unwilling to moderate it.

1. The current system is intimidating and vague. The gap between discussion and show off thread is a bit too much, and it stands no comparison, at least in my mind, with the picture thread, mainly because they cover completely different aspects of this game

This is a problem we can solve if the reason for it is identified. The upcoming mods thread is actually supposed to be much looser than the old wip thread.

There could be a place there for such feedback and technical discussion Max is trying to get from the current 3 wip-sort-of threads, as well as general talk on a wider modelling/texturing etc etc subjects. I know of all the specific skype channels, and i am member in some. That said, while the obvious pluses are obvious, for someone who has limited amount of time, a forum is still easier to search for a particular problem, easier to find a certain topic, and easier to follow than an up and down scroll, and a history that can sometimes play you.

This is a good point, back then there wasn't a skype channel. A lot of people seem to be using that for help instead.

To conclude: i feel that a closer to the older style WIP thread is wanted, and, even with all the problems it makes, it is a better form than what we have now.

Critiquing is fine, but I would like to hear some actual suggestions.

We need a thread that is:

a) not a combat photography thread

b) not an spam infraction machine

c) has a clear purpose so it is

i. easy to use

ii. easy to moderate

Note that the thread is popular and everyone loves it is not on there.

A lot more have been abandoned long time ago. ;)

I'm not sure what you mean by this. And if the community doesn't want to use a thread, that's fine by me. I don't really consider their preference a problem.

[-Snafu- 77]

Why not stick it in the editing section where only people who make stuff go? That way it won't be filled with "spam". It was an editing thread after all.

[PuFu 4591]

This is a problem we can solve if the reason for it is identified. The upcoming mods thread is actually supposed to be much looser than the old wip thread.

Yes, but is not used. One reason is that upcoming mods might not really be upcoming at all. What i am trying to say is that this upcoming mods (judging by its name) is like advertising the new type of say Coka Cola on tely, then never actually make it. WIP was a better suited title, as it was fitting any sort of work. I am not a natively english speaker, but "upcoming" sounds a lot more stiff and with sort of "expectations" than wip.

I am not nitpicking, but as it stands, there is a reason that it doesn't work. For me, i guess is too tight. And what if people were posting bananas. In the end people spending their free time doing something might actually need those bananas to move forwards. I guess you get my drift here.

This is a good point, back then there wasn't a skype channel. A lot of people seem to be using that for help instead.

Yes, but then again, on the long term, the skype channels is a volatile medium. Surely, it speeds some stuff up by being real time. But then most of that information is usually lost for everyone else that (for whatever reason) never took part in that particular conversation. I for one am not really willing to check my entire skype history each time i come home. And you and me both know that information in different areas is not really up for grabs.

And i am not talking about the WIP thread here, but rather a restructured editing section (it took me 2 months to get placebo to properly rename the editing section) that would cover just a bit more, including the discussions happening on the skype channels.

Critiquing is fine, but I would like to hear some actual suggestions.

We need a thread that is:

a) not a combat photography thread

b) not an spam infraction machine

c) has a clear purpose so it is

i. easy to use

ii. easy to moderate

Yes, you are right about finding solutions is always better than finding flaws. That said, i will give it a longer thought about it. But my reasoning, and some other lads around here like abs for instande might not overlap with yours. I guess you should be willing to compromise a bit as well in order to find these common grounds. I would really like to hear some of the other active moderators thoughts on this one.

a) WIP was never really one. There were more wireframes and outside the game screens than ingame NSX style screens anyhow.

b) it should be loose enough moderated so that unless it's a completly fucking mess, it shouldn't matter all that much. At least that is my fistfull of pennies here. (and as you know i am one off those "asses" that like those forums nice and tidy, so i use that report button extensively)

c) WIP thread had a clear purpose. Allowing addon makers to show off their work, for whatever reason, be it just show off, or asking for some sort of feedback. What is the purpose of the existing 3 threads now then?

i. i don't really know what you mean by use here. Should one be able to do what else than post and scroll up and down with it?

ii. see point b)

Note that the thread is popular and everyone loves it is not on there.

And that is something we'll have to agree to dissagre. For some, myself included, that thread was like a kinder egg. Each time i was opening it up, i was expecting a better or worse surprise, but nevertheless a surprise.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. And if the community doesn't want to use a thread, that's fine by me. I don't really consider their preference a problem.

I was talking about specific addon threads ("say elite M4 reskins and models") that are abandoned due to the project being abandoned, or on hold or whatever. was directed to sniperwolf nevertheless.

Why not stick it in the editing section where only people who make stuff go? That way it won't be filled with "spam". It was an editing thread after all.

Could be an idea in the end.

Edited January 25, 2013 by PuFu

[max power 21]

And that is something we'll have to agree to dissagre. For some, myself included, that thread was like a kinder egg. Each time i was opening it up, i was expecting a better or worse surprise, but nevertheless a surprise.

What I was saying was that it was not a requirement for the idea. I think goals and requirements aren't always the same thing.

[[aps]gnat 28]

I'm sorry Max, but your DEATH-GRIP on this one subject is telling and IMHO unhealthy.

While Moderators are typically not made responsible for improving a forums popularity, I would think they should avoid acting such to make a forum less popular.

No, I dont mean you should open the gates of hell, the Moderator team here seems to have managed well enough the few "off-the-rails" threads that pop up from time to time.

[Placebo 28]

The Max Power death grip? Why do I have visions of Max running around in a Darth Vader mask with lightsaber when I read that? Go on Max make it happen!

[abs 2]

Gnat;2284512']I'm sorry Max' date=' but your DEATH-GRIP on this one subject is telling and IMHO unhealthy.[/quote']

Max, I think you're a great guy but I agree with Gnat here.

I think that every side has stated their opinions, so the moderators should just vote on it. That way it's not locked down to just one person's opinion.

Abs

[[aps]gnat 28]

so the moderators should just vote on it. That way it's not locked down to just one person's opinion.

Yep, agree. Moving on.

Oh! My throat feels cold & clammy ..... what happening?!! *cough* Help me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsyzRUKwgng

[NeMeSiS 11]

If its too much work to moderate it just get one of the pro-thread members to do it, seems reasonable.

Though i doubt you can limit a moderators power to just 1 thread, so that person would just have to honor the agreement.

[W0lle 1046]

Actually there is no moderation required. As I told Max yesterday we could just create the thread and let it go - with some basic rules set.

If people are bothered my spam posts they will report it and then we can react. If spam is not reported, it obviously is welcome and then it's not our problem.

It's definitely easier to get feedback from one thread where the feedback usually follows your initial post than having two threads in which you first have to search for feedback addressed to you.

[max power 21]

Gnat;2284512']I'm sorry Max' date=' but your DEATH-GRIP on this one subject is telling and IMHO unhealthy.[/quote']

All I can say is I think you're reading me wrong and I find your backhanded attempts to make this personal quite off putting. All I am trying to do is clarify what problems the original thread had. I guess I'm overstepping my bounds when I am hoping that someone like you would care, but am I mistaken when I say that you're the one who was hanging on this subject for a year now? I'm not married to the way it's working right now but I have reservations about going back to how it was before.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Max Power

[[aps]gnat 28]

backhanded attempts to make this personal quite off putting.

Sorry, but I'd suggest the only reason it seems "personal" is because you're virtually the only one saying no.

Its not personal, you're a good moderator and supporter of the community forum. Period.

I am hoping that someone like you would care, but am I mistaken when I say that you're the one who was hanging on this subject for a year now?

I care the views of others, but I fail to see how waiting a whole year to see true results (post count etc) is "hanging on this subject" !

Frankly I care just a little more for the success of the BIS game(s), success of its community, success of the Mod'ing community, growing more Mod'er. I won't apologise for that.

A year is a very long time in the "game" world, 100's if not 1000's of forum members (and potential mod'ers) have no doubt been ..... and unfortunately gone.

[Tankbuster 1733]

Just in case Gnat feels he's ploughing a lone furrow here, I'd just like to say I agree with him 100% and can't help thinking that our view is likely to be that of the reasonable within the modding community here.