hawkins308 0 Posted September 23, 2008 Hey guys, been a long time fan of OFP and I love ARMA. I just wanted to make a post that I thought could be used as somewhat of a modders resource. This is not at all to bash on ARMA as I love it. Some background on me, im 28 and just graduated from Ft Benning on April 18th of this year. Spent 2 months at Ft Carson Colorado and am assigned to 3rd Brigade 4th Infantry Division 1-68 Combined Arms Team as an Infantry Man. Im currently with my unit in Iraq, Charlie Company, Cop Ford Baghdad. Our AO is Jamilla right next to Sadr and a couple blocks right around Ford. At any rate, my time in the Army has opend my eyes considerably to some things about OFP and ARMA as far as realism goes. Running out of breath - I think this should be a big factor in a realistic combat game. My combat load is around 60 yo 70 pounds. Ive got my IOTV, ACH, 14 Magazines, M4, Water, knee pads, NODS, Medical kit, and if its a raid usually the Breach Kit. I cant run very fast and for very long without being very winded. The motion in ARMA just seems very fluid, like your in shorts and a tshirt. The battle rattle makes getting into and out of vehicles somewhat of a chore too. All in all, I think there should be a noticable difference in how well you run, crawl, etc based on your loadout. After a 50 meter sprint in my gear, i am sucking. Crew Served Weapons - The 240 seems way to user friendly as far as moving it around. Its a tuff job in reality. Its heavy, the ammo is heavy. In ARMA it seems very arcady. You just run around with it, shoot it looking through the sights standing up(this would be pretty damn difficult) Running with it, we tuck it under one arm and sort of cradle it, then run. So you are not ready to fire as soon as you stop. You run(as best you can) and when you are ready to set, you flip the bipod down and go prone. Firing it from the kneeling or standing without something to brace it on is really not practical at all, you wouldent hit anything and it would just be physically draining. The m249 not so much as the 240. Our SAW gunners have the short ones with M4 looking stocks and M145 Elcans. None of our gunners carry the full 1000 round combat load. The 2 in my squad I think both carry 700. 3 drums on IOTV and the 100 round pouch on the weapon. So I think the weapon your carrying should also effect your movement and firing stance options as well. Gotta get off time is up, hope Im not making anybody angry with this, Ill post some more later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparks50 0 Posted September 23, 2008 I think all your requests has been voiced before, and I agree in them. Our best hopes are in mods such as ACE, because there is a limit to how hardcore BIS wants to go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoRailgunner 0 Posted September 23, 2008 It depends on developers and gaming market. In last few years many games turn into "action movies". I guess developers are afraid of making less profit with more realistic gameplay. Many BF, CoD4 etc players arent that happy if they play OFP/ArmA - to hard, to difficult, to slow and no medals and no ranking list. @sparks50 ACE - hope they doing well and have enough motivation + time to release their Mod asap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparks50 0 Posted September 23, 2008 I would recommend you to have a look through the Add On Compilation for more Realism and Immersion thread: http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=72113 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ERC-Blackwater 0 Posted September 23, 2008 Yea man I totally agree with everything you said. Myself being a 240 gunner its rediculous to even think about iron sighting a target while standing. The 240 bravo is heavy as fuck. And as he stated running with the mother fucker is hard as well. First thing you do is drop prone and fire from the bi-pod. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrcash2009 0 Posted September 24, 2008 Specific to what you had issue with, you need this little puppy to add "weight" to movement and decent recoil etc ... http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=74483 (True Game Play Mods) Ever since ive installed Ive never removed it, much, much better heavy feel to running and moving, recoils are great, AI engagement great, plus its modular so you can disable many things you dont like. The most important to your taste will be: Quote[/b] ]- TrueGameplay-Animation-TurningSpeed v1.0 - TrueGameplay-Animation-MovementSpeed v1.0 - TrueGameplay-Animation-TransitionFixs v1.0 - TrueGameplay-Player-Fatigue v1.0 (REQUIRES XEH) - TrueGameplay-Weapon-Dispersion v1.0 - TrueGameplay-Weapon-Recoil v1.0 - TrueGameplay-Weapon-Sway v1.0 - TrueGameplay-Weapon-TurretRotationSpeed v1.0 Quote[/b] ]TrueGameplay-Animation-MovementSpeed v1.0 ------------------------------- - Decreased SPRINT speed by 1/10 - Decreased RUN speed by 1/6 - Decreased WALK speed by 1/4 - Decreased CROUCH WALK speed by 1/8 - Decreased "Slow" PRONE CRAWL by 10% / Increased "Fast" PRONE CRAWL by 5% (For greater difference between fast/slow crawl and for a slightly faster "fast" crawl). - Increased SWIMMING speed by ~33% - Increased "StandToCouch", "CrouchToStand", and "CrouchToProne" speed by 33% - Increased Transition to PISTOL speed by ~50% - Increased Transition to LAUNCHER speed by 50% - Increased Transition to BINOCULAR speed by ~50% Things you will notice... ========================= - Increased immersion from the ingame feeling that your body actually weighs a significant amount. - Less frustration for certain transition speeds. - Enhanced stealth aspect due to slower Walk/CrouchWalk/Crawl speeds. TrueGameplay-Animation-TurningSpeed v1.0 ------------------------------- - Adjusted TURNING SPEED while NOT MOVING. = Fastest > Slowest turning speed (Stand/Kneel/Prone) - Adjusted TURNING SPEED while MOVING. = Fastest > Slowest turning speed (Walk/Run/Sprint) Things you will notice... ========================= - Increased immersion from the ingame feeling that you have limited agility due to momentum. - Choice of stance and movement becomes much more important while playing. - Fast prone spinning is no longer possible and sprint zigzagging ability is reduced. TrueGameplay-Animation-TransitionFixs v1.0 ------------------------------- - Fixed Run-Sprint-Run Transitions (Rifle&Pistol) (If using "FastForward" key rather then "EvasiveForward" for sprinting) - Fixed L/R Run-Sprint Transition (Rifle) - Fixed CrouchRun-Sprint Transition (Rifle&Pistol) - Fixed CrouchRun-Dive Transition (Rifle) What I like is when your watching men when commanding and they are running, its at the correct looking speed, rather than "bots on crystal meth". im, not in the military but right away my gut feeling was exactly what you thought about movement, this came along and was the answer for me. If this doesnt "sort you out" then nothing will  Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manzilla 1 Posted September 24, 2008 Ahhh Sadr my favorite place. Stay safe and thanks for the service. Definitely use TrueMods, as mrcash brought up, it adds a lot to the experience and definitely makes the movement etc. all little more life like. Check out FFN Mod as well for a little more agressive baddies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pathetic_berserker 4 Posted September 24, 2008 The true mods are good. but it would be great to have a system that took actual load into account as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CameronMcDonald 146 Posted September 24, 2008 @ Hawkins308, I wouldn't mind some of your opinions in my units thread either: Here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icebreakr 3107 Posted September 24, 2008 Its quite funny how fast can you run 100meters with full combat equipment. My team colleague just made a training mission and he used stopwatch to time guys around the "track"... quite funny results. I'm a bit worried, because devs focus on other stuff like RPG elements in Arma2, but the most obvious stuff for mil-sim won't be fixed even in nextgen sim: - momentum - weight simulation - proper ballistics and fire ranges - zeroing the rifle etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[frl]myke 14 Posted September 24, 2008 I've read through the topic and have to fully agree with all comments made. But i think a lot people forget one major important thing: ArmA is a game after all, it is made for Gamers. BIS had to find a balance between realism and playability. This has pretty much of balancing on razors edge. If they make it too arcade-ish, a lot of OFP Fans and Milsim fans would be disappointed. If they make it really hardcore sim down to the smallest detail, a lot of "casual players" wouldn't have buyed it. And i think all of you would agree that earning money (to have enough to develop ArmA2) has to be the main goal of any software engineer company. I guess they decided in a lot of details to go further into "arcade-ish" settings, pretty well knowing that all realism fans would create some addons (like the named TrueMods) and those who don't make addons, they'll surely look for it. At least BIS knows best how open theyr game architecture is. So in my humble opinion BIS found an acceptable balance between easy access and realism for the release version. And i also think they're proud of theyr community, pushing ArmA so far with addons and mods. Just my 2 cents. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ERC-Blackwater 0 Posted September 24, 2008 And another thing someone could probably easily change is 240 rounds flying out the right side... the shells eject out the bottom. Trust me I've been burt enough times by hot brass collecting below near my wrist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Placebo 28 Posted September 25, 2008 Yea man I totally agree with everything you said. Â Myself being a 240 gunner its rediculous to even think about iron sighting a target while standing. Â The 240 bravo is heavy as fuck. Â And as he stated running with the mother fucker is hard as well. Â First thing you do is drop prone and fire from the bi-pod. I think the content of your post is creating a manly enough image without the need for the additional "swearing for effect" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twisted 127 Posted September 25, 2008 The motion in ARMA just seems very fluid, like your in shorts and a tshirt. The battle rattle makes getting into and out of vehicles somewhat of a chore too. All in all, I think there should be a noticable difference in how well you run, crawl, etc based on your loadout. After a 50 meter sprint in my gear, i am sucking.Crew Served Weapons - The 240 seems way to user friendly as far as moving it around. Its a tuff job in reality. Its heavy, the ammo is heavy. In ARMA it seems very arcady. You just run around with it, shoot it looking through the sights standing up(this would be pretty damn difficult) Running with it, we tuck it under one arm and sort of cradle it, then run. So you are not ready to fire as soon as you stop. You run(as best you can) and when you are ready to set, you flip the bipod down and go prone. Firing it from the kneeling or standing without something to brace it on is really not practical at all, you wouldent hit anything and it would just be physically draining. The m249 not so much as the 240. Our SAW gunners have the short ones with M4 looking stocks and M145 Elcans. None of our gunners carry the full 1000 round combat load. The 2 in my squad I think both carry 700. 3 drums on IOTV and the 100 round pouch on the weapon. So I think the weapon your carrying should also effect your movement and firing stance options as well. good post man. i hope the devs take note as arma (while good) is a bit schitzo and needs to focus on being more true to life. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Col. Faulkner 0 Posted September 25, 2008 The machine guns are also unsatisfactory for several other reasons (from the "player as gunner" point of view - I guess there'll always have to be some slack cut for the AI); The effect of the bipod is not simulated - the gun is far too "wobbly", and the feeling of holding and aiming one is not represented at all. This is because the machine guns are just rifles as far as the program is concerned and their unique attributes are just ignored. There should really have been another special weapon class "MachineGun" that had appropriate holding (ie. no more fingers jammed up the gun's ejection slot! ), carrying, firing and reloading anims and which tried to simulate a heavy gun balanced on a bipod. Since morale is not simulated in the game, and because the AI men do not [re]act like real people, the machine guns lack most of their "authority" on the battlefield. In ArmA they're just another gun. In reality they are very formidable weapons indeed; "the concentrated essence of infantry". As regards fatigue, the mechanisms to support this are apparently in the game already (you eventually slow down and your aim gets more wavy if you've been running) but these effects aren't pronounced enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmarkwick 261 Posted September 25, 2008 I think that as long as these properties are adjustable by addons then it's all good. I agree that the vanilla game has got to hit a median for the broad market, but the customisation abilities must remain accessible. More than any other single thing the customisation properties of OFP & ArmA has been their strength. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wld427 1705 Posted September 25, 2008 Hey guys, been a long time fan of OFP and I love ARMA. I just wanted to make a post that I thought could be used as somewhat of a modders resource. This is not at all to bash on ARMA as I love it.Some background on me, im 28 and just graduated from Ft Benning on April 18th of this year. Spent 2 months at Ft Carson Colorado and am assigned to 3rd Brigade 4th Infantry Division 1-68 Combined Arms Team as an Infantry Man. Im currently with my unit in Iraq, Charlie Company, Cop Ford Baghdad. Our AO is Jamilla right next to Sadr and a couple blocks right around Ford. At any rate, my time in the Army has opend my eyes considerably to some things about OFP and ARMA as far as realism goes. Running out of breath - I think this should be a big factor in a realistic combat game. My combat load is around 60 yo 70 pounds. Ive got my IOTV, ACH, 14 Magazines, M4, Water, knee pads, NODS, Medical kit, and if its a raid usually the Breach Kit. I cant run very fast and for very long without being very winded. The motion in ARMA just seems very fluid, like your in shorts and a tshirt. The battle rattle makes getting into and out of vehicles somewhat of a chore too. All in all, I think there should be a noticable difference in how well you run, crawl, etc based on your loadout. After a 50 meter sprint in my gear, i am sucking. Crew Served Weapons - The 240 seems way to user friendly as far as moving it around. Its a tuff job in reality. Its heavy, the ammo is heavy. In ARMA it seems very arcady. You just run around with it, shoot it looking through the sights standing up(this would be pretty damn difficult) Running with it, we tuck it under one arm and sort of cradle it, then run. So you are not ready to fire as soon as you stop. You run(as best you can) and when you are ready to set, you flip the bipod down and go prone. Firing it from the kneeling or standing without something to brace it on is really not practical at all, you wouldent hit anything and it would just be physically draining. The m249 not so much as the 240. Our SAW gunners have the short ones with M4 looking stocks and M145 Elcans. None of our gunners carry the full 1000 round combat load. The 2 in my squad I think both carry 700. 3 drums on IOTV and the 100 round pouch on the weapon. So I think the weapon your carrying should also effect your movement and firing stance options as well. Gotta get off time is up, hope Im not making anybody angry with this, Ill post some more later. Son, you must have fell asleep in your OPSEC briefing. You just gave the enemy some very important information on your units current displacement. loose lips DO sink ships. Think harder next time. I myself am an E-6 with the 101st as my signature will tell you. I agree with alot of your observations. we do our best to take many of these into account with my mod, but unfortunately the game engine limits it i always laugh a the guy walking around witht he M240 at the high ready..... good luck with that in real life. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twisted 127 Posted September 25, 2008 I think that as long as these properties are adjustable by addons then it's all good. I agree that the vanilla game has got to hit a median for the broad market, but the customisation abilities must remain accessible.More than any other single thing the customisation properties of OFP & ArmA has been their strength. but can the proper qualities of a machinegun be modded now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmarkwick 261 Posted September 25, 2008 but can the proper qualities of a machinegun be modded now? Anything that can be modded, can be modded What qualities do you refer? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kerry 0 Posted September 26, 2008 but can the proper qualities of a machinegun be modded now? Anything that can be modded, can be modded What qualities do you refer? I think he means standing with an M240 and not haveing to fire like rambo and be acurate to like 20 feet. also, from what a freind said, M240's eject the rounds down instead of to the right? I heard they just drop straight down after being discharged. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twisted 127 Posted September 26, 2008 but can the proper qualities of a machinegun be modded now? Anything that can be modded, can be modded What qualities do you refer? I think he means standing with an M240 and not haveing to fire like rambo and be acurate to like 20 feet. also, from what a freind said, M240's eject the rounds down instead of to the right? I heard they just drop straight down after being discharged. spot on. i'm talking about the things the thread starter mentioned. like fatigue from holding the weapon or moving with it. so heavier guns sway more and more the longer you hold them up. plus things like being restricted how far you can turn while prone. deployable bipods because simply lying down and hold a gun doesn't give it the handlability a bipod/support does. slings to hold the machine while walking as opposed to holding it up to the eye. and then there's the actuall effects that a machine gun has on the enemy - like suppression and keeping their heads down while part of your team flanks them. supression effects that shoudl affect players as well as AI. Dyslexi's great tactical page for examples of doing this. arma has a very long way to go towards actually modelling the experience properly. and it's such a big part of infantry combat that it really needs to be done to compete with OFP2. hell even insurgency (which is a great mod IMO but limited) does a better job. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PuFu 4591 Posted September 26, 2008 but can the proper qualities of a machinegun be modded now? Anything that can be modded, can be modded What qualities do you refer? I think he means standing with an M240 and not haveing to fire like rambo and be acurate to like 20 feet. also, from what a freind said, M240's eject the rounds down instead of to the right? I heard they just drop straight down after being discharged. spot on. i'm talking about the things the thread starter mentioned. like fatigue from holding the weapon or moving with it. so heavier guns sway more and more the longer you hold them up. plus things like being restricted how far you can turn while prone. deployable bipods because simply lying down and hold a gun doesn't give it the handlability a bipod/support does. slings to hold the machine while walking as opposed to holding it up to the eye. and then there's the actuall effects that a machine gun has on the enemy - like suppression and keeping their heads down while part of your team flanks them. supression effects that shoudl affect players as well as AI. Dyslexi's great tactical page for examples of doing this. arma has a very long way to go towards actually modelling the experience properly. and it's such a big part of infantry combat that it really needs to be done to compete with OFP2. hell even insurgency (which is a great mod IMO but limited) does a better job. sorry dude but, you haven't seen OFP2 yet to say how the infantry part works... But... 1. m240 case eject can be done, someone just need to find it interesting enough to bother with it 2. m240 is really accurate at 20ft, and way over, but only the first shot. The vanilla arma recoil for it is not, by any means, as it should...Besides the fact that standing, crouching or prone recoils are way too similar, and that is for all the weapons(in fact crouched and standing have the same values last time i checked) 3. if you would have fatigue just by holding a weapon (any weapon), i bet you wouldn't play that game. Fatigue when walking based on weight is something possible though 4. All the weapons have a different sway based on their weight, as well as different movement speeds (if floating is active that is). Anyways that can be modded 5. suppression scripts are available right now, and suppresion effect are also possible for Human players (check ECS mod). 6. bipods, that is something that "should" be possible, but atm, i never tried it, so i am unsure Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gsleighter 0 Posted September 26, 2008 Maybe it's possible to force the "At Ease" stance for units armed with machine guns when standing? So that they can only aim when in a prone position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kerry 0 Posted September 26, 2008 Well there is that one Hip fire addon. I forget what its called but it allows you to innacurately fire from the hip while jogging. That would be pretty cool to just have the M240 at his hip when he is just standing still instead of jogging. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrcash2009 0 Posted September 26, 2008 @Twisted ... did your read the entire thread, I posted a link to a mod that brings much of what you listed into the sim. It wont bring all of what you ask, but nearly all the original poster referenced and others here is at least part way adjusted with the mod. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites