official complaint to BIS

[4 IN 1 0]

well i started not to care about these comments, fired up OFP today, and find that i cant stand the old engine anymore with so much limit in it

Well i don't  feel same about OFP... Actually can't,  as i'm working in a Lapland war 1944 - 1945-project for OFP. But i can't wait the time that it will get converted to ArmA... As ArmA is new ruler of the kingdom ... Yes it is more demanding ruler: learn/adapt that flightmodel, shooting isn't as easy as before, controls are more demanding etc... But still it offers me a better kingdom with more opportunities.

yes you could still keep improve things that has been done in OFP, but what i am talking about is another "break through",

dont get me wrong, things thats new for us could still be able to created, yet the amount of scripts needed, the things that you need to add/reduce to match the needs of the old engine, the amount of time spend on making better stuffs, and the very important thing: the engine it self, all shows that there is little room for another mind blowing break through

(go and try to make an 1940's era of hong kong island map in both engine, and see which could be done better)

OFP is still alive, but not as kicking as she used to be

[Powerslide 0]

Whoever is running marketing and distribution for BIS is a genius. Here is a game created using American soldiers, vehicles, etc, and the game is released in Europe and other places before BIS even have a proper distribution deal for the US. There is no marketing, no hype, no communication and a total breakdown of focus and purpose by the team. What exactly is the issue around there? How could you fail so poorly after working so hard to make something playable? What is your goal and purpose? Has anyone established that in your office? Had you done this properly you could have sold 10 times more copies in North America then you have any hope of doing so now.

The proper way to do it would have been to finish the game, have a proper closed beta, fix the bugs, secure a distribution deal for North America, then release the game worldwide after a bit of marketing and promotional work. Did you even bother to look at Valves Steam distribution, perhaps the biggest marketing and distribution system of games worldwide? It's a no brainer.

What do you have now? Nothing. Nada. A buggy FPS that is getting slaughtered by the critics daily because of the poor manner in which it was released, the "very open" beta test (release) in Europe and the disorganized disaster at your office. You essentially have committed financial suicide on something that could have been a huge success. It's a shame.

Sorry to be so blunt, but that's the way I see it. If I get banned for this, it's only because it's the truth, and the truth hurts. I supported OFP for years, was and is a great game. It's unfortunate AA will never live up to what it could have been. So long BIS.

-Propaganda-

[max power 21]

315 posts... I assume he's read at least 315 others... and still so ignorant. I'm not saying he has no valid points, but the whole gestalt of the post is overwrought and underinformed.

And I'm not sure why people seem to want to spooge all over everything before they vanish into oblivion- perhaps it's some latent DNA code that we got when our branch of the evolutionary chain diverged from the one that eventually produced the salmon. I suppose if you have absolutely nothing worthwhile to say, you may as well make a tears-soaked thread and then blow. I have to wonder what ever happened to dignity.

[Powerslide 0]

but the whole gestalt of the post is overwrought and underinformed.

Please then, inform me?

[shinRaiden 0]

The critics that have slammed the functional quality of Arma either refused evaluate the product on BIS's standline systems, had technical issues of their own irrelevant to the product development but negatively impacting performance, or judged the product in light of it's current state.

Those who have praised the product have done so in light of OFP's lengthy history, and are judging Arma as a platform rather than solely a product, and are factoring in BIS continuing to upgrade and fix the engine, with a many-year life span.

As for the content, complaints are coming from the impossible-to-please hyper-realism crowd, where enough is never enough, and it will always be "just one more thing" making a product that is impossible to satisfy them. In fact, they are actually doing themselves a disservice by blindly assuming that there will be no one interested in implementing what they themselves evidently are not willing to do for themselves.

If you have a complaint about XYZ, fix it yourself. Arma is a platform, not a finished product.

[sparky 0]

Well,

I think that most OFP funs, have disappointed from the fact that the game hasn't released worldwide (else in bigger regions) at the same time. Personally (i live in Greece 505 distribution Area) i didn't like that very much. In fact i was jealous cause (Czechs,Slovaks,Germans etc) could have their game before me!!!

and that's the truth and it hurts too. Most of the people here that complain are people that the game hasn't released in their region yet.

As far as the bugs, well the biggest thing that concerns me, is the game play issue (a lot of hardware needs), bugs can be fixed through patches, that's why they could them patches!

Now about ArmA theme. i don't think that because ArmA is about America forces, doesn't mean that America has to have it first!!

Let's face it, the only force nowdays that makes wars is US, and that sells!! Personally i don't like (games that are always about US troops, i'm sick of that), but for that the answer is mods, and hopefully, the community are working hard on that.

Anyway, in total i think that it was the time for the game to be released, if it was bad or not BIS marketing, that's not our job. Just play the game (and mod it if you like), else don't buy it.

I'LL BUY IT!

[kestrel7e7 0]

I supported OFP for years, was and is a great game. It's unfortunate AA will never live up to what it could have been. So long BIS.

Hear. Hear.

[icebreakr 3159]

We already have a team of 15+ members playing ArmA - and its more fun than OFP, SWAT4 and Joint Ops combined... and certainly we don't want to see these whiners in our team when we're in coop this week we'll finish 10 after-action reviews (debriefings) from our online events, so ppl can see how ArmA performs...

[aus_twisted 0]

Those who have praised the product have done so in light of OFP's lengthy history, and are judging Arma as a platform rather than solely a product, and are factoring in BIS continuing to upgrade and fix the engine, with a many-year life span.

If you have a complaint about XYZ, fix it yourself. Arma is a platform, not a finished product.

That really makes a lot of sense when ArmA is sold in retail stores to the general public and only a small amount who buy these games are actually involved in the online community.

Saying fixing it yourself is plain wrong for such a product, yes some people go to far with requests but ArmA the way it was sold in retail stores was far from ready to be sold to the general public (Campaign anyone?)

And as far as advertising goes I've seen nothing advertised for the big 505 Games release due in just over a few weeks from now.

[Dwarden 1125]

Quote[/b] ]You essentially have committed financial suicide on something that could have been a huge success.

It's a shame.

i'm quite sure as long are USMC and other US and non US military orgs customers of BIS (and it's division) due to military simulation products ...

then there is no way they committed financial suicide

plus ... even  ArmA was released "early" (which if i remember was said alerady by several devs) ...

it still sells quite well (considering "narrow" range of gamers it can appeal)

and that also "could" prolong "updates" support to years (instead of months unlike most of publishers and developers)

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Taking into account that BIS made a game that is a sequel to a successful game, but unlike the first game is not relying on a big famous publishing house (with regards to the PC market) like Codemasters or EA or whatever, so you can't expect a big publishing campaign rivalling with OFP's...

I think that the people that have accompanied the ArmA development so far, and BIS themselves have acknowledged that the czech and german releases were too early in time... But nobody forces anybody to buy anything, and I think it is normal to expect problems with ANY software in their initial release. One could only compare the release of ArmA with the release of OFP, which was also a bit buggy (though how much I don't remember, my earliest copy of OFP is the Gold Edition - 1.20, not OFP 1.00), and taking into account that it's not any sort of "arcady game" like Half-Life or BF1942 or something of which you also expect to be instant hits from the moment they hit the stores - and none of these games was bug-free either - I think it is impossible for you to state that ArmA will never live up to its hype because I believe it will surpass its hype from BIS's side alone, not taking into account the mods and addons that will exist for it... and I'm not alone thinking along these lines.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]As for the content, complaints are coming from the impossible-to-please hyper-realism crowd, where enough is never enough, and it will always be "just one more thing" making a product that is impossible to satisfy them. In fact, they are actually doing themselves a disservice by blindly assuming that there will be no one interested in implementing what they themselves evidently are not willing to do for themselves.

Untrue, there´s simply not the content in the box that was proposed by BIS. Things are missing, are not working or are completely wrecked, like the campaign or the coop campaign and many more things.

They even transported over OFP 1.0 bugs to Arma that have already been fixed with patches.

It´s not about hyper-realism, it´s about a product that shouldn´t have been released in it´s state.

Quote[/b] ]

If you have a complaint about XYZ, fix it yourself. Arma is a platform, not a finished product.

Is there a sticker on the box telling customers that they are buying an unfinished, bugged and rushed out alpha ?

I had to pay full price for a product that is not full status.

And yes, I have already uninstalled it.

[berghoff 11]

I don't think BIS dropped the ball yet, since they're still actively working on US version and it was all up to the publishers when ArmA was going to be released in Germany/Czech/Russia and now Europe. Too bad Codemasters didn't want to publish ArmA.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

If you have a complaint about XYZ, fix it yourself. Arma is a platform, not a finished product.

Pretty lousy platform considering no editing tools have been released yet.

The 'game' was rushed, indeed.

[Second 0]

well i started not to care about these comments, fired up OFP today, and find that i cant stand the old engine anymore with so much limit in it

Well i don't feel same about OFP... Actually can't, as i'm working in a Lapland war 1944 - 1945-project for OFP. But i can't wait the time that it will get converted to ArmA... As ArmA is new ruler of the kingdom ... Yes it is more demanding ruler: learn/adapt that flightmodel, shooting isn't as easy as before, controls are more demanding etc... But still it offers me a better kingdom with more opportunities.

yes you could still keep improve things that has been done in OFP, but what i am talking about is another "break through",

dont get me wrong, things thats new for us could still be able to created, yet the amount of scripts needed, the things that you need to add/reduce to match the needs of the old engine, the amount of time spend on making better stuffs, and the very important thing: the engine it self, all shows that there is little room for another mind blowing break through

(go and try to make an 1940's era of hong kong island map in both engine, and see which could be done better)

OFP is still alive, but not as kicking as she used to be

Yes that is what i'm talking about too... I just can't feel bad about OFP as i have to work with it... And project is intresting so that keeps motivation up to mess around with OFP.

[sickboy 13]

Publisher/Developper Responsebilities

[*] It's the Publishers (505,IdeaGames) choice when to release a game, not a Developper (BIS). 505 Games seems to have been smart (wait until it's release ready), Idea Games choose to create a public beta test Complaining about this to BIS has simply no use, and that's probably the same reason why don't respond to it; Contact IdeaGames or 505 if you have problems with it....

[*]Bis should hand out/give out some more information where possible, but then the question remains, is this part up to the Developper or the Publisher??? (Probably the Publisher again)

[*] The game was worldwide available at 11 November, you could order it at Czech Webshops, and at 30 November also from German Webshops. Getting it From Czech is even cheaper than buying it in your own shop. Later you could also take a download version.  You can use my language patcher to play the game in Full-English, except the voice of Marian Quandt.

PvP/Coop

[*]It seems that the PvP/League/CTF run-kill-respawn Community has been let down... Features that were ok for these players in Flashpoint have been altered or are non-existent in ArmA, at least that's what i've been told

[*]ArmA seems to be in a sufficient state to keep Coop lovers happy.... Our servers everyday have some players on, on good evenings at least 10-15, non public server, and most ppl waiting for 505-Release...

Guesses

[*]Coop Campaign was mentioned as a possible feature, Nowhere is to be seen/proven that this was a real promised feature...

[*]Upcoming Patch will probably fix most of all the problems! Looking at the Demo Changelogs etc, looks promising!

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's the Publishers (505,IdeaGames) choice when to release a game, not a Developper (BIS)

Really ? That must have been some really weird contracts that have been signed there...

If the developer says a game is not finished there is no way a publisher would push the release unless the developer failed to keep the delivery date. From what I know from the german publisher, BIS stated it has gone gold, not the publisher, means BIS said it´s finished, not the publisher. Even Placebo posted a Gold - comment here on the forums.

[sickboy 13]

Quote[/b] ]It's the Publishers (505,IdeaGames) choice when to release a game, not a Developper (BIS)

Really ? That must have been some really weird contracts that have been signed there...

If the developer says a game is not finished there is no way a publisher would push the release unless the developer failed to keep the delivery date. From what I know from the german publisher, BIS stated it has gone gold, not the publisher, means BIS said it´s finished, not the publisher. Even Placebo posted a Gold - comment here on the forums.  

Is that true Balschoiw?

A Publisher would never release a game in an unfinished state (unless the Developper broke a contract)... If that would be true then I guess 100's of contracts have been broken in the past few years as many of the games were in some way broken or bugged, which required lots of just-after-release patches. I'm not going to list examples anymore, as that has been done often enough

Also, why would it not be possible that the German and Czech publishers wanted to release the game anyway to get the X-mas sales? Also, why would 505 Games Release the game so much later then? My best guess is that they didn't want to release an unfinished game... But true, I don't know that for sure and can only guess, just like you.

[icebreakr 3159]

The question is why will czech/german version buyers (including myself) probably need to patch the game with 300-500megs in order to play on servers around the world

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

The coop campaign was actually a promised feature and was presented as an 'already-in' feature in a pre-release interview.

The same way as persistant worlds with over 100 players could play.

Too bad the ded server is so unstable that it's only gonna last a maximum of 30 mins (if that long) before crashing, and that's with a maximum of 65 players as the game simply doesn't support more than that.

I think it's pretty far-fetched by the developers to talk about enormious multiplayer sessions with that many players, when they obviously haven't tried anything near that. But then again, we are the betatesters this time. Just like back in OFP.

[4 IN 1 0]

its publisher who gave us the release date, which means that publisher, no matter how small they are, will try to push the product asap to make money, developers, on the other hand, can not delay the release that easy by simply putting it "its not finish", while losing contract and in the worst case, paying for the "lost" of the publisher cause by the "delay", so in the end have to rush to finish the product by lefting this, bugged that, and fix them in later patch, taking account that bis need to find numbers of publisher to get the game world wide, this problem doesnt simply just adding up. but i aint BIS, i simply cant be sure if it is the fact

[sickboy 13]

I think it's pretty far-fetched by the developers to talk about enormious multiplayer sessions with that many players, when they obviously haven't tried anything near that. But then again, we are the betatesters this time. Just like back in OFP.

If that maybe doesn't work right now, but works in the next upcoming patch(es)? Then it's fine aswell right? Why is everyone throwing away the game after the 2nd patch? As said .. looking at the demo changelogs... we're going to be in for a hell of a ride with the upcoming patches...

I would like to see proof/interviews/links to where they are talking about persistent game worlds and coop multiplayer campaign...

I have read it now at 100 places that it was so called 'promised' but I never seen the text...

btw... I thought we would finally be done on this subject, and everyone would just wait for the next incoming patch I'm already sorry that I replied again

[mattxr 9]

The question is why will czech/german version buyers (including myself) probably need to patch the game with 300-500megs in order to play on servers around the world

Thats a stupid question.. why.. well beciase if you dont want to patch you wont get the new stuff and most of the bugs wont be fixed. and i dowtb it will be that big in size.

[wamingo 1]

The north american market might simply outright slay the game in it's current state. It is indeed littered with issues and US stores are not kind to games that are returned in plenty, not to mention games that need a long shelf life to succeed. I could very well imagine no US release until summer or even much much later.

[sickboy 13]

BTW Balschiouw and others, has anyone of you tried contacting Suma by Private Message and ask him all the questions you want to about the release etc and confront him with what everyone (with imagination) has been discussing with eachother?