European Politics Thread.

[Baff1 0]

Think of it this way:

Navy - Supported by tax payers money.

NHS - Supported by tax payers money.

.

If only that were true.

Try and think of it this way.

Navy - Supported by tax payers money + The money lent to us by (Chinese)people saving for their pensions.

NHS - Supported by tax payers money + The money lent to us by (Chinese) people saving for their pensions.

That's the bottom line.

It doesn't matter how much you hate capitalism or rich people or private enterprise. How much you would like to screw these people over.

You can't pay your own way in life.

Until you can, you will always be beholden to those that pay for you.

If they say your precious NHS is going to get cut, then it is.

Weep all you like.

TYPE IN CAPS IF YOU FEEL THAT HELPS.

I'm not intrested in paying more taxes to make you feel better, and I'm not intrested in lending any more money to people who see no self-intrest in repaying it. Who hate me for having saved enough to lend them.

Yes, I could pay more taxes... but I don't wish to. I'd rather go private and opt out of your system completely. It is ineffecient. How could it not be, it's managed by unemployable lefties.

If you want to pay more taxes... if that's all you feel it needs, then pay more taxes. Nothing is stopping you.

Your problem is that you want other people to pay. The inefficiency in the system is you.

So yes, you can cling onto your health service and drive the economy into the ground with your refusal to face up to your economic reality. But you can't do it indefinitely.

This isn't still 1955, this is 2011.

Sooner or later, we have to either pay back our debts or go bankrupt.

You want this to be your choice. For you to be able to say where our money gets spent....

When our lenders say "no more"...

Then we collapse like the Soviet Union did.

The Navy goes unpaid. The NHS goes unpaid. they become private sector institutions by default.

The IMF comes in and they decide if we can afford an NHS or a Navy.

Just as they did before.

What you think we can afford or how we should spend our money, and what I think we can afford and how we should spend our money is irrelevent.

Because it isn't our money. Those people who own it will decide.

And that is where the British economy is at. Propped up by lenders. Doing the bidding of those who own it.

When the market says jump the governments say "how high?"

No choice.

Not because they can afford to run an NHS for another 60 years, but because they can no longer afford to run the NHS even until the end of this year.

---------- Post added at 09:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/step-aside-bbc-trader-head-unicredit-securities-predicts-imminent-end-eurozone-and-global-finan

Step Aside BBC "Trader": Head Of UniCredit Securities Predicts Imminent End Of The Eurozone And A Global Financial Apocalypse

Take the article as you find it and also link further about this information, but thought I would post based on the nature of it.

(Although I do like the comments at the bottom of the article).

I don't think anything short of war will end the Eurozone.

I am however expecting to lose about half of everything I own again to the next financial crash.

---------- Post added at 09:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 PM ----------

Well I mean technically any country that prints its own fiat currency will always be able to pay for everything. It's like that over here in the United States. We have a unimaginably large national debt and yet somehow all the bills are being paid. The problem isn't so much about the ability to pay -- that's been a mere accounting technicality since the gold standard was left behind -- but where the actual value is coming from. The answer, of course, is that the value primarily comes from inflation, i.e., lowering the value of all money in circulation (by essentially printing more) so that the government can pay its bills. This is tantamount to a regressive stealth tax on every citizen, and it's not a sustainable policy in the long term. Eventually the propensity for the interest rate to rise will be so great that Western governments will basically have to choose between severe austerity measures or hyperinflation. Both suck, but the latter is far worse.

Sorry but the value primarily comes from China.

Inflation is a good way to get out of debt.

But just as when the U.S. was in the gold standard and unable to deflate it's economy against the economy of others... China will just peg the Renminbi to the Dollar, so you can't inflate away what you owe them.

Long term, either you will get your economy in order, or you will go to war with China and cancel your debt and cripple their economy that way. (Assuming you win).

Of the two? I honestly believe war with China is the more likely. For countries like ours to reboot our economies would pretty much take a civil war. Better to fight foreigners than each other.

Austerity is a dangerous program. In my country, near to half of the workforce is directly employed by the state and more yet indirectly and a load more still financially dependant on it for benefits/care etc.

They are all tax negative. Minus's on the national economy, to those in the private sectors' plus.

The number of people who create wealth in my country is greatly surpassed by those who spend it.

They will always win the vote in any democracy. The economy cannot be fixed from within our current political systems. It needs a world event or a revolution.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Baff1

[st_dux 26]

Just because we choose to have more social programs, doesn't mean we are in more danger of going bankrupt, it just means we have more social programs and the taxes will be made to fit.

By themselves social programs don't equal bankruptcy, no, and I'm not saying that budgets can't be balanced in other ways. Certainly the NHS is a better investment than many other government programs.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

480 kb image removed

Edited October 2, 2011 by W0lle

[mrcash2009 0]

Its funny to watch people in other countries having the gaul to "sit back and watch" with some assumption this wont have a global effect later, I would never be that comfortable myself.

(going by you image hint).

[ProfTournesol 956]

Its funny to watch people in other countries having the gaul to "sit back and watch" with some assumption this wont have a global effect later, I would never be that comfortable myself.

(going by you image hint).

Indeed. Moreover, it's funny to watch how well the country of those "eating pop corns" is dealing with its own overwhelming debt. Without the excuse of having a decent welfare state.

Edited September 30, 2011 by ProfTournesol
gosh, failing english

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Indeed. Moreover, it's funny to watch how well the country of those "eating pop corns" is dealing with its own overwhelming debt. Without the excuse of having a decent welfare state.

I live in Texas where it's a pro business state. The only thing we bitch and moan about is the hot weather or the Longhorns being beaten by Oklahoma in the Red River Shootout. We also have a Sun Set Commission that finds which State agencies are useless and/or inefficient and then makes recommendations or ask the state legislature to abolish them. We don't have a state income tax other than the Texas Lottery. So for those that love paying taxes, they can, and have fund doing it at the same time.

Yeah, I also find it funny that the US is broke. I think it was Sam Houston that warned us joining the Union because we would lose our sovereignty.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/01/us_equivalents

Edited October 1, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[Baff1 0]

I We don't have a state income tax other than the Texas Lottery. So for those that love paying taxes, they can, and have fun doing it at the same time.

What an immensely enlightened way of carrying on.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

What an immensely enlightened way of carrying on.

Meaning?

[mrcash2009 0]

This is for UK based politics but can be classed as euro based politics for the sake of the thread/forum. Maybe this model is what US and other countries should look into:

kScy-FoO0d8#!

Initial part is ref courts / legal fiction, second part is about banking system and alternatives.

More information can be found:

http://www.thebcgroup.org.uk/

Further to this, he has proven the legal fiction ref paying Uk's council tax (not having too based on the law) in high court I think today or yesterday, more information should show up about it. Main thing is that it highlights the law / system and how its used not in the public's interest and ties in well with global situation.

I think anyone in any country can take leaf from this book.

Edited October 29, 2011 by mrcash2009

[walker 0]

Hi all

Needs to be said:

The protesters seem more adult than politicians and plutocrats With a few nylon tents and some amateurish banners, the Occupy movement has rattled the establishment

Andrew Rawnsley The Observer, Sun 30 Oct 2011 00.10 BST

The mayor of London demands a law against it to stop tent villages "erupting like boils" across the capital. If you lived like Boris, you too might be a bit paranoid about boils. The prime minister interrupts a trip to Australia to announce that the government is poised to intervene. Meantime, the Church of England is split down the aisle about whether the Christian thing is to embrace the protesters encamped on the doorstep of its cathedral – after all, St Paul was a tent-maker and Christ had a robust approach to moneychangers – or to join forces with the mammonites who run the City of London and have the protest camp evicted. Much of the mainstream media side with the establishment by dismissing them as an incoherent and unrepresentative fringe. Well-paid television interviewers sneer that the protesters are spoilt brats while grand columnists scoff that they will achieve nothing.

Yet they have already done something fairly remarkable. My congratulations to the encampment outside St Paul's for sending almost the entire British establishment into a tizzy every bit as confused as some of the protesters themselves. Amazing what you can achieve by occupying a small, albeit famous, patch of the capital with a few nylon tents and some amateurish banners expressing well-mannered rage about capitalism...

http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op/sKE568EzwSFtjDR9T9vbEUQ/view.m?id=15&gid=commentisfree%2F2011%2Foct%2F30%2Fandrew-rawnsley-occupy-protesters-grown-up&cat=commentisfree

As always follow the link to the original text in full

When peacefully protesting you know you are getting your point across when this kind of force is arained against a few people camping out in tents.

Kind regards walker

Edited October 30, 2011 by walker

[Tonci87 163]

The church should sympathise with the protesters. Jesus indeed had a very robust approach to moneychangers

[nettrucker 142]

Good video. It's gonna be hard to fight corruption in our juridical systems though. But I'm grateful that some are undertaking action.:)

[Baff1 0]

He was doing alright until he explained his new banking system and then I realised I was listening to Zeitgeist in a suit.

[mrcash2009 0]

Good video. It's gonna be hard to fight corruption in our juridical systems though. But I'm grateful that some are undertaking action.:)

Yes, in that video he mentioned it being taken to the high courts, and recent news is in that high court the judge ended noting that his upper case name is a legal fiction and they would have to prove otherwise in order to fine or bankrupt him (IE hes a human not a piece of paper with writing on, the piece of paper cant be bankrupt).

Its very important indeed.

He was doing alright until he explained his new banking system and then I realised I was listening to Zeitgeist in a suit.

Yes it right out of zeitgiest, im afriad they are worlds apart, this chap and that collective are actually "proving" the system fraud as fact, Zeitgeist is a fraud no question about it. I suspect that if he was wearing a tracksuit and protesting he would be a media whore showing off too, you cannot win. Dont let views of banking systems discredit anything they are doing, as they are actually doing what everyone complains about protester not doing, and that's using a brain & taking actions lawfully.

Seems to me that people will find an issue no matter what and still live under the B.S of the current systems, interesting, even when its shown and being proven to be a fraud.

Edited October 30, 2011 by mrcash2009

[nettrucker 142]

Hi there

this is something incredible and they are trying to pass the ESM without the knowledge of us european citizens. I'm referring strictly to the ESM.

Unbeknownst to most Europeans is the European Stability Mechanism, ESM, which is the newest EU monstrosity. It is a new EU administration. What happens when Brussels retains the finance ministers of 17 countries, who can unilaterally commit their nations to billions of euros? That is without limit and permanent and the ministers will have complete immunity from prosecution. The ESM bypasses all nations forming a supra-national governmental command. The ESM will end sovereignty for its members. Each country’s parliament has a due date for joining and all will have joined by December 31st.


Europeans had best quickly seek out their representatives and demand that they do not join this treaty and that they vote against ratification. This treaty allows the ESM to take over fiscal finances of all countries as well. We know that Europeans have no understanding, or even know about this treaty, so you had better act fast. The EU media has a total blackout on what they are attempting to pull off. We understand there is just one copy of the treaty and that is in English and is rather odd, when English is not the first language of any of the euro zone countries. Yes, most all of the parliamentarians read English, but historically a treaty would be published in 17 languages. If you do not act 300 million Europeans will spend the future under an ESM dictatorship.


There will have to be renegotiations with the opposition party or default and an exit from the euro zone and perhaps the EU. That would of course be accompanied by financial panic and perhaps the same course by Ireland and Portugal. As Greece takes all the flack no one says anything about the bankers who are responsible for all of these problems.


Irrespective of the German legislation effectively banning the ECB from further bond buying, they are still buying Italian and Spanish bonds. As Rome literally burns, PM Berlusconi has secret meetings with fellow Illuminists Mr. Sarkozy and Mrs. Merkel. They agreed that Berlusconi should expedite economic reforms by adding them as an amendment to the budget bill. As this transpires Italy’s borrowing costs jumped almost 1% to 6.26%, which is why the ECB was buying Italian bonds. Their yield is now 4% higher than German bunds. Brussels of course has the answer, send in bureaucrats and technocrats to overhaul the system and in the process relieve Italy of its sovereignty. That would be like the Vandals sacking Rome.

:mad:

here's the link to the original article

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27491

regards

[mrcash2009 0]

Ah yes the Central European super state, that conspiracy theory only up to now. Amazing how it unfolds.

Heres another link, I assume this website will be untrustworthy as the badge is not mainstream enough :)

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-coming-european-superstate-that-germany-plans-to-cram-down-the-throats-of-the-rest-of-europe

[ProfTournesol 956]

For those who wants to read less biased articles about the ESM, i guess this is nice.

[nettrucker 142]

Ah yes the Central European super state, that conspiracy theory only up to now. Amazing how it unfolds.

Heres another link, I assume this website will be untrustworthy as the badge is not mainstream enough :)

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-coming-european-superstate-that-germany-plans-to-cram-down-the-throats-of-the-rest-of-europe

I'm not quite sure if this is to be considered a conspiracy theory. What I know is that chancelor Merkel and Sarkozy will try to push it through within th 31st December 2011 and they are working on it.

Here in Italy we are definitely f***ed. Monti is part of the Bilderberg group and Trilateral commission. He worked for Goldman and Sachs as an advisor. Mario Draghi actually worked for Goldman and Sachs and ECB. We've been sold to the banksters also here in Europe no doubt about it.

---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------

For those who wants to read less biased articles about the ESM, i guess this is nice.

It may be biased but it's exactly what's going to happen . . . especially the above the law part rings a bell. FED anyone???

[celery 8]

I'm not quite sure if this is to be considered a conspiracy theory.

The thing in the text is clearly a conspiracy to create a financially unified Europe where national money can be pumped to certain people with legal immunity. How is pointing it out not a conspiracy theory?

[nettrucker 142]

Sorry than I missunderstood. In any case things are pretty bad and the major culprit is "corruption" in all it's various forms.

[Dosenmais 10]

Ah yes the Central European super state, that conspiracy theory only up to now. Amazing how it unfolds.

Heres another link, I assume this website will be untrustworthy as the badge is not mainstream enough :)

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-coming-european-superstate-that-germany-plans-to-cram-down-the-throats-of-the-rest-of-europe

Revealed: The secret report that shows how the Nazis planned a Fourth Reich ...in the EU

Read more about the Octogon organisation.

[mrcash2009 0]

I'm not quite sure if this is to be considered a conspiracy theory. What I know is that chancelor Merkel and Sarkozy will try to push it through within th 31st December 2011 and they are working on it.

Sorry, to clarify, yes its a conspiracy based on more than one party conspiring to bring it forward, what I meant is that not long ago it was a "conspiracy theory" in the general throw away terms of this last few years IE: "mad man rambling bullshit" as opposed to its true meaning.

And now as things unfold the "theory" part is getting less stable day by day.

It is no surprise to me that this state within a state move off the back of the "crisis" is on the way. All roads lead to Rome and all that.

EDIT:

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/285022/-Dump-pound-for-the-euro-Lord-Michael-Heseltine-provokes-Tory-fury

‘DUMP POUND FOR THE EURO’ LORD MICHAEL HESELTINE PROVOKES TORY FURY

Edited November 22, 2011 by mrcash2009

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Ah yes the Central European super state, that conspiracy theory only up to now. Amazing how it unfolds.

Wasn't it Noam Chomsky that said larger institutions are easier to control the masses? We all know what side of the political spectrum he is on.

[VanhA-ICON 11]

Well, at least it might not end up as a world war this time.

The EU will just suffer spontaneous combustion from within.

[Baff1 0]

It's not like European meglomaniacs to go down without a fight.