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mickeymen

Devs! Please return the control of the tank from the commander, as it was before!

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When I received news that the tank control on the commander's position had been changed in the test,  

 

On 10/9/2017 at 4:39 PM, oukej said:

player tank commanding changed to direct control over the vehicle (test)

 

I hoped that this would be just a test. But today I received an update of 1.78 and I saw that the new control on the commander's position looks disgusting. Excuse me for this word, but I can not find other words. This is not in the style of Arma.

 

main troubles of the new control-system:

 

1. There is no feeling that the tank is controlled by another person. The player feels the opposite, namely as if he is a tank driver! It just spoils the sensation of the sim-game.

2.There is no difference in the control of the tank from the commander/driver positions. The only difference is the presence of voice orders. Otherwise, it is the same. Thus commander == driver. Then for what driver is need? Only for the fact that it's necessary to gameplay, not more.
3. The game automatically forces the player to stop the every rotation/movement of the tank, (when player release the A/D/W/S buttons). It looks arcade. In the old control-system, to stop the tank was needed a special order (s-button), which need in spent time as in reality.

4. The sound of voice commands does not match some orders and irritates the player. infinite "stop", "stop", "stop"...
5. Even after this update, the tank controls is not accurate. Many scolded AI-Drivers, because they could not be exact, but the new system is not better! If the player tries to stop the tank, it will continue move about another 10 meters before stopping.  Or if you drive forward, hold down the W button and then release it, then some more distance the tank will go further.  It's not like inertia or something adequate. In this sense, the old control-system was more accurate, since the AI driver stopped the tank's movement/ rotation exactly at the current position.

 

 

Among other things, this does not correspond in any way with the voice commands of player character.

Why does the character of the player after each order must say "Stop"? After each turn right/ left  player character says - "Stop". Now the player automatically says "Stop" and does not choose when to stop the tank! Every few seconds the player hears - "Stop", "Stop", "Stop", "Stop"! It looks irritable to the player's ears. Among other things, a normal, adequate Stop command does not sound exactly when it's needed!  For example, when player as commander accelerate tank forward (hold the W key) and press "S"-button, player hear not "Stop ,  player hear "Backward". Note! Yes, player says "Backward", but if In this case, the tank does not go back, it just stops! Why "Backward"!???  In order to actually go back, you need again to press the "S" button and again hear "Backward!  OMG I do not want to hear this!

 

@Bis you broke the old and unique Arma tank-control (which was not in any game!) and replaced by this arcade control. :down: Please complete your test! I want to believe that this was just a test!

 

May be some users will say, that the new tank control looks more convenient. Blah, Blah...Yes, yes, yes! perhaps it is more convenient,  but this is less realistic for a sim game and this does not sound adequate (voice commands of player character). Arma never looked for more convenient ways, Arma always oriented on realism. New tank-control It looks arcade, I think this is more suitable for other games, such as Battlefierd or COD.

 

@BIS please return the previous control of the tank to the position of the commander or give the player some choice in the game settings! Player would not want to spoil impression of the Arma game.

 

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No thanks. As someone who has played with tracked vehicles almost daily for the past year when working on my projects, having direct control of the vehicle is the best decision they could have done now. I agree that the left, right, stop, forward, etc. is annoying, but it wasn't any different before, just with a bigger delay and combined with more spongy vehicle behavior.

 

And please stop with "old way was more realistic". If it were realistic, players could easily tell the driver to "go up 2 meters to that bush on the right side" without having everything go apeshit in the process.

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Since it is SP related - i'd say - get rid of the repeating annoying voice commands during direct control AND leave the current "arcade" controls in. AI just can't (yet) be trusted to handle most situations.

 

Direct control is the way to go.

 

A side note: i'm all for most realism possible, but for this I am ready to tolerate some arcadyness until AI is able to properly handle my armored vehicle and obey my commands.

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@lexx if you support the telepathic communication between  the commander / driver , then play Battlefield but not in Arma. 

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12 minutes ago, bars91 said:

 

A side note: i'm all for most realism possible, but for this I am ready to tolerate some arcadyness until AI is able to properly handle my armored vehicle and obey my commands.

 

while you wait for the ideal or at least smart AI,  it will be 60 years!

We all enjoyed the game, from the OFP times for > 16 years! And it was a different control of the tanks! 

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Player: "Driver!"

AI Driver: "Yes Commander?"

Player: "Go make me a samwhich whilst I do YOUR driving!"

Ai Player: "Right away Sir! Commander Sir!!"

 

~Ai disembarks, runs towards hill leading to an empty Harbour, never to be seen from again..

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5 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

@lexx if you support the telepathic communication between  the commander / driver , then play Buttlefield but not in Arma. 

This is a total non-argument just to silence my opinion.

 

Without direct control it is tedious and very luck-based to get your vehicle into the correct position. Clicking on the map to order the driver somewhere was even worse, as - again - tank driver ai simply can't be trusted.

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4 minutes ago, lexx said:

This is a total non-argument just to silence my opinion. 

 

I did not even try! say, as long as you want. Your opinion is also valuable

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IMHO the system is not 100% arcade as long as AI driver needs to be present for this to work.

 

Again, i'm not advocating for 1-man armor, but for a more refined, precise armor employment in SP and COOP when handling AI crew.

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@Lexx and @bars91 you are called this control more precise! My God, but the player can not even stop the tank exactly in the place where it is currently located!

 

If the player control tank at small speed and presses Stop (note ! and hears Backward) then the tank continues to move!

A some meters (6-10m) it will move!  At the old tank control, the AI-driver would stop the tank immediately!

And you still praise the new tank-control ? Lol!

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11 minutes ago, bars91 said:

IMHO the system is not 100% arcade as long as AI driver needs to be present for this to work.

 

yes I agree. But does it matter how much shit we have in our pocket? 100 grams or 10 grams? It will always be unpleasant

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30 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

If the player control tank at small speed and presses Stop (note ! and hears Backward) then the tank continues to move!

A some meters (6-10m) it will move!

 

IKR but that (along with the annoying repeated voice commands) is something to improve with this system instead of reverting back to the middle-ages ).

 

I play the series since OFP and Resistance and ALWAYS hated this backwards excuse of a "delayed" command -__-

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As someone who advocates the push for realism in arma. 

 

I can say without doubt this was a necessary evil. 

 

This commanding Ai to drive the tank was NOT one of the cool interesting realisms adding more to gameplay and immersion. 

 

It was a grade A, frustrating  clunky pain in the hole. And it wasn't gonna get better. I'm glad it's dead.

 

The annoying voice commands just let you know you are actually commanding and not in the driver seat or vice versa .  Needs some fleshing out. 

 

 

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I like a new exact and timely response of the driver to the teams of the commander. In combination with additional teams of the mode of the movement everything looks perfectly.            
It wasn't pleasant to me that was earlier - it was necessary to wait for end of a voice command. It caused big errors in the accuracy of actions of the driver, an example:
- To the left
- action in left
- To the right (stop in left), action in left continues while this or other phrase sounds....

 

P.S.

Perhaps I haven't correctly understood, but the control of cars can be included or disconnected in missions.

That is, the old nature of behavior can be included.

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The way I see it:

 

Arma AI today are incapable of training or thinking. Ergo, they can't learn to be good tank drivers, nor can they interpret commands or assess the battlefield in order to find "obvious" cover, as a human player would.

 

Therefore, AI cannot be trusted or even used efficiently in combat pre 1.78. Even a simple traverse is always a huge oscillating back/forth wiggle thing. It is just unrealistically cumbersome.

 

The new system, let's the player go exactly where he wants, where the audible commands are more there for effects/immersion. You can't tell the AI "Follow the road until you get to that large tree, then set up with hull facing 45 degrees to the left of the road behind those rocks". Instead you say "FORWARD, STOP, FORWARD, STOP, FORWARD, SLOW, STOP, LEFT, STOP, LEFT, STOP, RIGHT, STOP, SLOW, STOP". 

 

To summarize, it's not perfect, but the direct control allows a much better experience AND it appears more realistic. Tanks have more smooth movements, more precise and can be used more efficiently. It is therefore, gameplay-wise and one could even argue, realism-wise, a huge improvement over pre 1.78 driving controls.

 

Not even mentioning the other possibilities that have followed in the wake of this: Tanks can now operate without drivers if the config is set up that way. Meaning if you have a vehicle where the gunner/commander controls the tank movement, so it is now possible to both drive and shoot at the same time. Great for mods, great for futuristic tanks (maybe tanks DLC stuff here).

 

 

There is a middle-ground though for improving the voice issue. One could implement a form of "cruise control" for the AI. Instead of holding W to go forward, one could use a system where pressing W once, says "Forward" and the tank moves at cruise-speed until S is pressed for "STOP". If you press W again while you are at cruise speed, the AI will hit max speed. If you press W and S at the same time, the AI will cruise at "slow" speed. You would keep the traverse controls direct input, but speed is set more like on a boat/ship. It could work?

 

Either way. The new system still rocks. If the AI driver dies, you can't move so it's still realistic :)

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23 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

Either way. The new system still rocks. If the AI driver dies, you can't move so it's still realistic :)

You have reminded me. The new system can allow to operate the vehicle without driver, it can join/be switched off for character in missions

Spoiler

ENGINE 

Added: Vehicle commanders can now control their vehicles directly by the WASD keys without AI responsibility delays (there should be no difference between driving from driver or commander positions, though AI crew still needs to be present) 

Added: Using the hasDriver = -1 parameter will now create a vehicle without a driver and with a commander who can drive the vehicle directly by the WASD keys 

 

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When I was playing the new Tac-Ops DLC operation Steel Pegasus, where

 

Spoiler

at a certain point, you get to drive an APC

 

I was glad for newly implemented controls. Also, these new controls got me to replay a great user-made campaign Callsign Minotaur by @lexx.

 

I completely agree with the new system, although, it may be less realistic, the old system was really pain in the a$$. AI driver was doing what it wanted, vehicle was uncontrollable. 

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15 hours ago, mickeymen said:

@lexx if you support the telepathic communication between  the commander / driver , then play Battlefield but not in Arma. 

 

arma is a military game not military sim

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I respect the opinion of each user, but I can also refute every opinion because it is not uniquely true!

 

55 minutes ago, lex__1 said:

It wasn't pleasant to me that was earlier - it was necessary to wait for end of a voice command. It caused big errors in the accuracy of actions of the driver, an example:
- To the left
- action in left
- To the right (stop in left), action in left continues while this or other phrase sounds....

 

 

You were unhappy before, waiting for the commander to say his command and you prefer that in the new version the commander can send an instant telepathic signal to the driver !? Do you want the driver to understand the commander for 0.001 seconds!?  LOL!  LOL! LOL! What are we talking about? Then play in Unreal Games. Such solution not for sim-game!

 

 

53 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

Arma AI today are incapable of training or thinking. Ergo, they can't learn to be good tank drivers, nor can they interpret commands or assess the battlefield in order to find "obvious" cover, as a human player would.

 

Therefore, AI cannot be trusted or even used efficiently in combat pre 1.78. Even a simple traverse is always a huge oscillating back/forth wiggle thing. It is just unrealistically cumbersome.

 

 

Then let's remove the AI from the game? Delete all the AI-drivers? This is your logic! AI driver can not be perfect like any other AI-unit in the game. Do you propose to get rid of them? Your argument is not weight, because AI for a long time will not be ideal

 

 

53 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

The new system, let's the player go exactly where he wants, where the audible commands are more there for effects/immersion. You can't tell the AI "Follow the road until you get to that large tree, then set up with hull facing 45 degrees to the left of the road behind those rocks". Instead you say "FORWARD, STOP, FORWARD, STOP, FORWARD, SLOW, STOP, LEFT, STOP, LEFT, STOP, RIGHT, STOP, SLOW, STOP".

 

This is not required. All I wanted to say - The old system sounded more adequate, although it was not ideal.

 

 

53 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

To summarize, it's not perfect, but the direct control allows a much better experience AND it appears more realistic. Tanks have more smooth movements, more precise and can be used more efficiently.

 

 

hahahahaaa. Realistic, especially the telepathic interaction between the commander and the driver. without a single delay! You call this realistic!? LOl!  Yes it is more convenient for arcade players! But this is not very realistic!

 

 

53 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

Not even mentioning the other possibilities that have followed in the wake of this: Tanks can now operate without drivers

 

Next realistic moment! Lol! Thank you, BIS!!!

 

 

53 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

Either way. The new system still rocks. If the AI driver dies, you can't move so it's still realistic :)

 

Really? Yeah it completely changes the case! And makes the control of the tank the most realistic, but ONLY NOT FOR MILITARY SIMULATOR!

 

 

45 minutes ago, XerXesCZ said:

When I was playing the new Tac-Ops DLC operation Steel Pegasus, where

 

  Reveal hidden contents

at a certain point, you get to drive an APC

I was glad for newly implemented controls. Also, these new controls got me to replay a great user-made campaign Callsign Minotaur by @lexx.

 

I completely agree with the new system, although, it may be less realistic, the old system was really pain in the a$$. AI driver was doing what it wanted, vehicle was uncontrollable. 

 

You at least have an understanding that the new system is less realistic, thanks at least for this!  

 

I watch a lot of fans of arcade games, which play in Arma. All of you who are satisfied with the new control-system, like easy and comfortable games! in its turn, I would like to see in tha Arma a real hardcore game, but unfortunately every year the game turns into a kind of popular and not serious shooters ...

 

I'm sorry...

 

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The feedback for the new control has been positive so far. Incl. feedback from the more 'hardcore' audience. That's why we decided to keep it in. We also believe that the current state provides overall better tank experience than the previous. There are still some bugs, rough edges and things to improve before the Tanks DLC.

 

16 hours ago, mickeymen said:

less realistic

I'd like to stress out that the game is not about 100% realism but about authentic engagements. The primary goal is that MBTs accurately fulfill their role on the battlefield. Were they able to do so better before the change or after?

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15 hours ago, froggyluv said:

 

Player: "Driver!"

AI Driver: "Yes Commander?"

Player: "Go make me a samwhich whilst I do YOUR driving!"

Ai Player: "Right away Sir! Commander Sir!!"

 

~Ai disembarks, runs towards hill leading to an empty Harbour, never to be seen from again..

...two years later a strange sense of uneasement wakes you up in the middle of a night.  No wonder, it's hard to stay relaxed when you can't pay the rent. Half-asleep, you turn your head to take a look at the clock. Luminodiodes burn your eyes with familiar four-digit combination. All of a sudden you freeze, you feel the spike of adrenaline and your heart stops dead in its tracks when your brain almost subconsciously notices that there's a barely distinguishable figure standing right next to your bed. You stare at the indifferently shining symbols hopelessly trying to discern the figure with your peripheral vision. You can't really tell what the figure is, but you feel it's heavy presence, you can hear the slight sounds its shapeless dress makes as the figure breathes. After what seems to be an eternity, the figure suddenly bends over you. You stay motionless as its moves what seems to be its oversized head to your right ear and whispers

2 - Ready.

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25 minutes ago, oukej said:

 

I'd like to stress out that the game is not about 100% realism but about authentic engagements. The primary goal is that MBTs accurately fulfill their role on the battlefield.

 

I did not even dream about  100% realism! Give at least 50%! The new driving system does not even have 5%!

 

25 minutes ago, oukej said:

The primary goal is that MBTs accurately fulfill their role on the battlefield. Were they able to do so better before the change or after?

 

They could have done it earlier, not worse, it's for sure!  But I'm not talking about a question worse / better. I talked about the question of simulation and realism. Missing the feeling that someone (namely driver) runs the tank but not me. It was lost thoroughly and in this my pain

 

Everyone complains about the bad  driving of the AI-drivers that was before!

"It was not accurate", "it was so long"  blah, blah, blah ... 

I could always explain such inaccuracies to myself with a very simple condition! The - AI-driver did not have good visibility from its position! It's so easy to understand!  For this reason, it was not accurate and not ideal.

 

The old scheme - The commander is the eyes, the driver is the legs!

The Driver in the tank can not see perfectly and does not even have to! This scheme seems to me more realistic. And what do we have now?

The new scheme - Commander and legs and vision simultaneously?  And who is the driver then? This is none at all. He does not have a message, his presence is only necessary for the game and not more than. Now The driver does not have the right to make mistakes? Yes it is more convenient and more precise in some moments, but it is nonsense for the realities/

 

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20 minutes ago, oukej said:

The feedback for the new control has been positive so far. Incl. feedback from the more 'hardcore' audience. That's why we decided to keep it in. We also believe that the current state provides overall better tank experience than the previous. There are still some bugs, rough edges and things to improve before the Tanks DLC.

 

I'd like to stress out that the game is not about 100% realism but about authentic engagements. The primary goal is that MBTs accurately fulfill their role on the battlefield. Were they able to do so better before the change or after?

Yes, don't listen to him, keep the current system! As you stated, it was always authentic game, not a simulation. At least controlling a tank is actually fun! Plus current AI is kinda unresponsive and having that 1-2 sec delays made driving a tank so frustrating in singleplayer..

 

But it has one bug - when you control the tank commander from a Zeus or as a playable unit you cannot drive the tank..

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6 minutes ago, danny96 said:

Yes, don't listen to him

 

probably henceforth it is necessary to listen only to you. Good/

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Your argument would only be valid if we could tell the driver to rotate X° to direction Y, but we can't and if we could, we probably had yet another cluttered interface menu that would slow down the player.

The reality with the old system was: Move left, left, left, right, right, STOP. Backwards, backwards, STOP. Forward, STOP.... and then you probably still weren't standing in the right spot, so.. scrollwheel, switch to driver, move into position, switch back to commander.

Yay, much fun and realism.

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