Fixed Wing Flight Model (dev branch)

[escforreality 35]

One issue I have is when you perform a sharp turn and lose speed until stall it is practically impossible to get any thrust from the engines after returning to horizontal flight. I understand that after a stall you need to pitch down to get more air speed but if you return to horizontal flight holding down "Shift" you get nothing from the engines. This is the behaviour of the Wipeout and Buzzard not sure about the other bird, compare this to the modded RHS SU25 after stall at low speed from turning then returning to horizontal flight and holding "Shift" opens up the engines and gives thrust. 

 

Maybe the default mechanics is correct behaviour, I'm sure someone can correct me on that, but what I expect to happen is for the jet engines to have more power. 

[chortles 263]

3 hours ago, dragon01 said:

This is why I'm looking forward to Apex-style improvements for them. The flight model is significantly improved (for example, the plane is capable of making a turn by banking alone), but the existing planes are less than perfectly suited to showcasing it (Caesar BTT is a civilian prop plane, while VTOLs are lumbering cargo planes).

For clarity's sake, am I correctly interpreting this as meaning that the flight model basics are better in the Apex fixed-wing aircraft even if they're not supposed to perform better like the vanilla fixed-wing aircraft should be?

[dragon01 902]

Yes, basically. They certainly have a superior flight model, but it's harder to notice due to their inferior aerobatic performance.

 

EDIT: Actually, check out the racing version of the Caesar. It forgot that it exists, but it's pretty nimble. I don't know how many Gs it can pull, but it's definitely got a turn radius on par with a small aerobatic plane. It's rather agile at low speeds, but then, it's a small plane with straight wings. Just before stall it does lose much of this agility, but you have to go to around 150km/h (I drove faster than that on few occasions) for this effect to kick in. Only at very high speeds does it lose some maneuverability (translate: couldn't pull out of a 500km/h+ dive as quickly as 300km/h one), presumably to G limiter and stall prevention.

 

About the only complaint I have about it is that it still bleeds speed too quickly in turns. But it's something that BI should look into tweaking.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I agree. The amount of speed lost from a single turn is far too much. 

[dragon01 902]

I recently fired up FlightGear and noted that the default Cessna turns much faster when banked than ArmA aircraft. So that needs tweaking, too. However, the overall feel of the aircraft is reasonably close (of course, it's a lot more stable than FG's Cessna, but Caesar BTT has a fly-by-wire system that presumably helps with that). For reference, when the turn coordinator looks like this (one of the wings at the lower mark):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Turn_coordinator_-_coordinated.svg
The turn rate should be exactly 3 degrees per second (that's regardless of which aircraft you're in).

 

So faster turn when banked and less speed loss on turning. If BI can do that, they'll have a fairly decent flight model on their hands.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

My problem with jets currently is that when banking, it doesn't necessarily turn that direction, I stead, it sort of drifts sideways in that direction, instead of a proper banking. That should also be tweaked.

[dragon01 902]

Again, don't judge the FM by vanilla jets, they're outdated. Check Apex aircraft (if you don't have Apex, you can spawn sitting in one of them in Eden). This is implemented, even if turn rate is too low.

[x3kj 1247]

Can we get an envelope for "thrust coefficient" based on throttle level in the config? It doesnt need many "levels". (e.g 10% throttle = 10% thrust;  95% throttle=95%thrust;100%throttle = 180% thrust)  It would allow us to set non-linear throttle behaviour, thus making it possible to make afterburners simply by setting thrust a lot higher >95% throttle.  In conjunction with a fixed "throttle" animationsource for PlaneX in model.cfg it could be made visually appealing too (unhiding hot exhaust flame, opening up engine exhaust nozzle, ...). It would be a nice feature for fighterjets that (supposedly) the dlc will have and many airplane mods. It would be usefull for propellor planes too (methanol or nitro injection and so on).

Right now afterburners/"boost modes" are only possible by using the ugly hack of constantly setting a speed via script

 

Another suggestion i have is to increase the velocity of the jet exhaust particle effect. Atm it just "drops out" the turbine at almost 0 velocity and then is affected very strongly by wind and so on. This looks very arkward. What should happen is that the exhaust particles have a higher velocity towards the back, so this becomes less noticeable. Realistic velocity is obviously not possible, but an increase from current state should certainly be possible.

[gatordev 219]

On 3/4/2017 at 0:10 PM, dragon01 said:

but Caesar BTT has a fly-by-wire system that presumably helps with that

 

Are you referring to the actual Cirrus aircraft?  If so, it does not have FBW, which would usually mean the Caesar doesn't either.  The Cirrus has a SAS, but that's not FBW.

[hnchmc 125]

34 minutes ago, gatordev said:

 

Are you referring to the actual Cirrus aircraft?  If so, it does not have FBW, which would usually mean the Caesar doesn't either.  The Cirrus has a SAS, but that's not FBW.

 

Cessna TTx (Used to be the C400) actually, not a Cirrus SR22  but your point is still valid.

[gatordev 219]

24 minutes ago, hnchmc said:

 

Cessna TTx (Used to be the C400) actually, not a Cirrus SR22  but your point is still valid.

 

Ahh!  I thought it was a Cirrus, but now that you say that, of course, the name makes more sense now.  Thanks!

[dragon01 902]

Well, it's a Caesar BTT, not a Cessna. :) The setting and fictional names do give BI some leeway. Even if it isn't FBV, it could have more advanced stabilization than a Cessna TTx.

[oukej 2910]

FYI
- 3rd person view is now smoothed more nicely and follows the aircraft in pitch
- manual throttle control is inbounce (for now pls ignore the silly UI indicator in vehicle info)
- send beers to BXBX

 

[dragon01 902]

Really looking forward to the throttle overhaul. I've been using an analog throttle for some time, but it always seemed that something's amiss. Mostly I'd love to get rid of the old "throttle/speedbrake" coupling. Generally you can deploy or stow speedbrakes, only a few aircraft can finely adjust their position. Also, IRL it's perfectly possible to open speedbrakes without completely closing the throttle. I tried a few flights with only throttle bound only to the throttle lever, and found that airplanes seem to have a lot of trouble slowing down. This is another thing (besides turning rates and loss of speed in turns) that needs tweaking.

[x3kj 1247]

in a dive the airbrake thus far is automatically enabled in some cases, at least visually. Can't tell if it also had effect on speed/acceleration. When manually "braking" the airbrake animation goes back to un-deployed and then to deployed again. Its arkward.

RPM (the animation source) do not change with thrust for planeX. Once engine switch on process has finished, rpm stays glued in place at 100%. It should be coupled with thrust, but delayed. So if you put thrust from 40% to 100%, turbine rpm would go to 100% (or whatever is displayed as the safe maximum level), within a time frame of maybe 5 seconds.

JFYI - In DCS A-10C and SU-25 the 0% throttle rpm is in the 40% region, at 100% at 90-100%

[xxgetbuck123 945]

13 hours ago, oukej said:

FYI
- manual throttle control is inbounce (for now pls ignore the silly UI indicator in vehicle info)

 

 

Manual throttle? Is that like DCS level where you can input like % increment of throttle? So formation is at like 60% throttle power, rather than currently just trying to match off speed etc.. 

[five_seven5-7 56]

Civil plane have wrong flaps positions in the Panel, landing and t/o are switched. Should be: UP (0°), T/O (12°) and landing (40°).

 

Quote

ENGINE 

• Added: Analogue throttle for airplanes 
• Added: A separate airbrake control 
• Tweaked: Animations of ailerons and airbrakes now work even when the airplane is stopped  

 

 

Its great to use separate airbrake and the thrust doesn't drop, IMO find the speedbrake to slow for a brake.

 

This, TGP, radar, loadout and new flight model for old models its a WIN!

 

 

[x3kj 1247]

Thanks for the repaired throttle animation source for PlaneX. (not mentioned in changelog) Analogue throttle is great too, i'm very happy with the changes - much kudos.

However: The update broke the VTOL mode 3. both APEX vtols have this, and pre patch could hover in the air stationary. The update broke it and changed this into STOL. When going too slow now they plummet down, they can't hover in place. My custom aircraft vtol mode 3 broke too - which is a bit silly looking, as it has skids not designed for "rolling" forwards.

 

Please fix this, unless you changed the mode numbers around - in which case please give us updated description.

 

What is the controll for airbrakes? I couldnt find it in the keyboard settings option in plane movement. Or does that come later?

[dragon01 902]

The airbrake control has been misnamed as "Wheel brake set/release". 

[oukej 2910]

6 hours ago, x3kj said:

However: The update broke the VTOL mode 3. both APEX vtols have this, and pre patch could hover in the air stationary. The update broke it and changed this into STOL. When going too slow now they plummet down, they can't hover in place. My custom aircraft vtol mode 3 broke too - which is a bit silly looking, as it has skids not designed for "rolling" forwards.

The change to manual throttle has changed how vectoring works. It behaves now the same as it used to behave only when using analog throttle - FLAPS UP/DOWN control the actual vectoring (in VTOL 3 remember that vectoring near ground is limited to certain angles).
Anyway, we'll need to revisit the VTOLs FM too.

 

 

6 hours ago, x3kj said:

What is the controll for airbrakes? I couldnt find it in the keyboard settings option in plane movement. Or does that come later?

6 hours ago, dragon01 said:

The airbrake control has been misnamed as "Wheel brake set/release". 

Atm it uses a WIP / placeholder lolcatization

[dragon01 902]

I hope that along with VTOL FM and plane AI revisions, you'll finally be able to fix "drunken wobble on takeoff" and "pointless flyaround on landing" that VTOL AI exhibits.

[x3kj 1247]

21 hours ago, oukej said:

Anyway, we'll need to revisit the VTOLs FM too.

I'm much in favor of that... controlling vtol vector with flap controlls is arkward. Not intuitive and also prevents use of flaps. I'm not even sure how the increments work in "vtol controll", as there is no indicator of engine vector angle - means you have to rely on 3rd person view, unless an indicator in the cockpit shows it.

Regarding the manual thrust UI display - imo the floating point digits could be eliminated. Or at least the last current digit - 3 relevant digits are totally sufficient.

 

suicideking mentioned planes moving before engines spooled up https://feedback.bistudio.com/T123854

Sound and the rpm source takes longer to reach maximum than for the plane to start moving (i.e. thrust beeing applied).

In addition i noticed that the time to spool up (until plane starts moving but also until rpm anim source reached maximum) does not correlate with the config setting "engineStartSpeed", the setting seems to have no effect at all.

 

[xon2 102]

Three question:

 

@oukej     ''True. Can you pls try out the expansion aicrafts (VTOLs, drone, prop. plane) if these feel better? CAS airplanes don't utilize the improvements made during the post-release development.''

 

I am not on dev branch atm so i wouldn't notice a change. But will the arma 3 vanilla CAS planes (A-164, Neo and Buzzard) receive the 'enhanced/tweaked' FM that we have with the Apex planes with the up coming jets dlc release? 

 

Will the coming new jets flight model be on par with the Apex FM standard, or will it even be slightly better/more advanced than that?

 

Last but not least: i read a couple of posts back something about the analogue air brake and throttle being coupled. Is that why my analogue throttle start to respond only past the 50% mark?

 

 

[driftingnitro 38]

On 3/15/2017 at 1:47 PM, oukej said:

FYI
- 3rd person view is now smoothed more nicely and follows the aircraft in pitch

 

 

Does this mean I can play Ace Combat in my Arma now?

[nodunit 397]

21 hours ago, driftingnitro said:

 

Does this mean I can play Ace Combat in my Arma now?

Guess its time to make a Razgriz scheme.