Jets - Sensor overhaul (Radars, IRs, Lazors, PGMs)

[oukej 2911]

3 hours ago, Alwarren said:

My point being, if something has a feature, don't take it away because of balancing. If an Apache has a FLIR camera, don't take it away because the OPFOR chopper doesn't. In the case at hand, I understand the concern of the KotH crowd was that planes become overpowering when they have "too many" targetting aids, but in how far is it balancing then if you take away capabilities that even planes in 2017 have?

I'd say it slightly differently. You always need some gameplay goal before you add a feature. You'd always be looking at what the feature brings, what it takes, what is the cost of using it, how it can be countered. We added some game mechanic, created some abstracted simulation. But we underestimated tuning its capabilities to its level of abstraction. The complain about broken balance has been valid, we've got some good feedback and have made some changes that we've believed would improve the balance.

3 hours ago, .kju said:

The main problem is BI, especially the A3 team, doesn't like more server/mission customization.

It's not because we simply didn't like it. We refuse to add things whenever we can't achieve a result good enough to outweight the effort, maintenance and potential arisen issues.

[heavygunner 179]

Does the dropped simulation of Semi-active radar means it is not possible to have a missile that requires a constant lock on to hit?

[.kju 3245]

@oukej to avoid misunderstandings - I was talking about it in general sense/in terms of Arma's long history

both the current sensor redesign and the revision of the bomb dropping assistance do show you take these topics seriously.

 

I was mainly to point out the flawed argument about "realism trumps all and is the only way".

One has to evaluate the actual game and gameplay mechanic - both for humans and AI, as well as both for beginners and experienced players.

 

"Realism" is meaningless by itself.

[dragon01 902]

Is it just me, or are tanks with MGs and APCs far too accurate against planes? They shouldn't even be able to lead an airplane moving at 500km/h, nevermind reliably hit it. It seems that altitude is an effective defense, but a low and fast flying airplane will end up getting hit way more than it should.

 

EDIT: Tank MGs seem more or less fine, it's just the cannon on the Kamysh that's ridiculously effective. 

[mjolnir66 48]

Would it be possible to add some sort of indicator to guided bombs, something like a CCIP but an area, so you know roughly when it's going to start locking on and it's easier to bring into its performance envelope. So have the CCIP until you select a laser target, then it goes into an area mode to let you know where to put your plane.

[Strike_NOR 898]

13 minutes ago, mjolnir66 said:

Would it be possible to add some sort of indicator to guided bombs, something like a CCIP but an area, so you know roughly when it's going to start locking on and it's easier to bring into its performance envelope. So have the CCIP until you select a laser target, then it goes into an area mode to let you know where to put your plane.

 

In real life it would work something like this:

 

-Put aircraft targeting pod in "Laser Spot Track", where it will actively seek for a Laser designation.

 

-Fly aircraft towards target area -> targeting pod should pick up laser and "slave" (command) targeting pod sensor to look at laser spot.

 

-This is indicated in the aircraft HUD, to tell pilot where to steer aircraft.

 

-Aircraft computes CCRP (Continuously Calculated Release Point) which is when to drop while flying over the target.

 

-Squeeze and hold weapon release button until aircraft automatically drops bomb.

 

 

In Arma, it would be nice if it just made a laser target marker appear on sensor screen, select it with cycle targets, then follow HUD or sensor indicators to a "overfly" point. I would absolutely love if they just made the HUD symbology start blinking once there is a good firing solution. Then all you as an ARMA player would have to do is just:

 

1. Fly towards target area
2. Wait for laser target to appear on sensor hud
3. Select laser target
4. Follow the compass on the sensor hudn (or Aircraft cockpit HUD would be better) to fly directly over the target
5. See flashing HUD symbology (maybe with giant "shoot" or "release" text)
6. Drop Bomb
7. Profit

 

 

 

[snoops_213 75]

I was going to say we need a basic ECM. Something that only lasts say 30-60 seconds and puts fake targets on enemy radar screen. It should also be affected by distance to radar source, so the closer you get to the radar the less fake targets appear until your it. This is all well and good and adds some more of the realism factor but unless they add some serious ADA units its more for the because its cool than anything else really. 

[chortles 263]

2 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

-Put aircraft targeting pod in "Laser Spot Track", where it will actively seek for a Laser designation.

It seems that all sensors except active radar are always enabled and seeking, although I have yet to find a model selection corresponding to the TGP to name in the animDirection parameter (to limit the laser spot tracking to what direction the TGP is looking in). As for the rest, unfortunately a dev stated months ago that CCIP would be implemented but that CCRP was not planned.

[Strike_NOR 898]

1 minute ago, chortles said:

As for the rest, unfortunately a dev stated months ago that CCIP would be implemented but that CCRP was not planned.

 

I think you can "synthesize" a CCRP mode for laser guided bombs... It would be to remove the white target box with diamond you normally see, and replace with an audible tone, or as I suggested, flashing HUD symbology with "launch" or "release" (you get the gist). It could probably easily be coupled with a vertical line that shows in the HUD. Just fly towards that until hud flashes basically. Flashing HUD indicates firing solution (means bomb has found target and will track)

 

 

[escforreality 35]

I tested this out on today's branch 

10-02-2017 
EXE rev. 140343 (game)

 

Using the AAF AA Jet which has the new Radar system I found the following:

 

(1) Turning the radar on was not initially set to any key bind by default. I had to manually set it to (Ctrl+R). 

(2) After selecting an initial enemy aircraft target (T) it was very difficult to select a second enemy aircraft target using (R) or (T). For some reason it took a long time of tracking the aircraft and keeping it in my sights to actually allow me to select it.

(3) When tracking an enemy target that was locked the cannon was provided with a firing solution (CCIP?) which is fine, however on my second target, if I had fired a missile at it, it would not calculate a new firing solution for the cannon. At first I thought this was related to the distance from me the target but upon closing the range it never computed one, even if a cycled through my weapons. It had no problem getting missile locks.

 

These changes are great. 

[dragon01 902]

The removal of speed zoomout is a real game changer. The HUD is far more visible now. With that out of the way, I have a few more suggestions on how to improve diegetic instrument experience:
1. Tilt the pilot's head a few degrees down in Neopheron, Wipeout and Caesar, so that MFDs are in full view. 

2. Slightly increase the HUD font size in all planes.

3. Decrease the default FOV on all planes except Caesar. This and the above will need to be balanced to make HUDs fully readable without giving the players tunnel vision.

4. Add pitch and speed ladders to Wipeout.

5. Some symbology (flaps, lights) on Buzzard currently remains even if the system in question are off, just dimmed. This is a bad idea, as this dimming is not always apparent (which is why real HUDs never do this).

6. Wipeout's HUD could use a contrast adjustment.

7. Neopheron needs a better gunsight and both Wipeout and Neopheron need working CCIP symbology.

8. Add simplified caution/warning indicators and countermeasure count on the MFDs.

9. Once all the above is good and working, add an option to remove the stats in the top-left and top right corners of the screen. That'd really help immersion. If you manage to render the UI MFDs to the displays as well, it'd be even better.

[xxgetbuck123 945]

Do agree, the removal of the auto fov is beautiful! 

[CANADAVE 14]

On ‎2017‎-‎02‎-‎07 at 11:12 AM, oukej said:

On ‎2017‎-‎02‎-‎06 at 10:08 PM, CANADAVE said:

Is targeting pod locked area ground point visible / indicated on HUD when properly oriented with dev branch improvements? 

Only inside the fullscreen cam. view.

 

Sorry Oukej I did not explain correctly.   I don't mean to display the image from the TGP just the POINT at which the TGP is locked to on the HUD (like a marker or cross hair or something).

 

This is important for orientation and to align for a gun run, or CCIP run on a specific area that may not be a 'valid' lockable target like a vehicle. 

 

Currently the only way to know where the TGP is pointing while flying in cockpit view is to:

1) Lock a valid target where you get the white targeting box but this does not cover the scenario where you just have a point on the ground area locked

2) Place a user waypoint via SHIFT-CLICK on the map in the same place the TGP is area locked to and hope the server difficulty allows you to see a user marked point in game

 

In the real A-10 (and other CAS aircraft) there is a HUD indicator (diamond, or crosshair or something) that will show up on the HUD to indicate where the TGP is looking.   If the point is off of the HUD it can be at the left or right edge.

 

Additionally in the real A-10 and other CAS aircraft the TGP area locked point is also shown on the TAD map view and top-down Radar views.  This would be nice to have in ARMA but not as critical as showing a marker in the HUD. 

 

I hope this is clearer.  What do you think Oukej?

 

Thanks

 

Dave

 

 

 

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I think there should also be a change to countermeasures on aircraft too, example as follows.

 

-Flares become a lockable entity. (sensors can lock on to flares if they're not careful)

-Flare mode like Arma 2. AI use burst flares, but the player can switch from Burst to Single dump.

 

[heavygunner 179]

Your first point was already discussed and AFAIK wasn't possible.

 

I do however think that there should be change in regards to AI using countermeasures, as of now they instantly flare the rockets away as soon as you shoot them and the rockets don't even try to follow the flares instead they fly straight into the ground some meters ahead of you, potentially killing your friendlies. There should be a time delay or better yet, actual sensor on the jet which detect missile launches instead of yet another magical radar.

[xxgetbuck123 945]

@oukej 3 questions

 

Q1) When config'n a 'LaserSensorComponent', does the 'Class AirTarget/GroundTarget' parameters 'minRange/MaxRange' dictate how well the sensor can spot a laser that originates from either Air or Land?

 

For example, does the following imply that I'd be able to spot a laser from 8000m max and 200m min if the laser originates from an aircraft? 

class AirTarget
						{
							minRange = 200;
							maxRange = 8000;
							objectDistanceLimitCoef = -1;
							viewDistanceLimitCoef = -1;
						};

 

Q2) Is there a way to slave the 'VisualSensorComponent' to a TGT Camera? So where the camera looks the sensor also looks? Also allowing for FOV adjusting + sensor angle depending on TGT zoom levels etc? 

 

Q3) Would it be possible to get a 'PassiveSensorComponent' range/area indicator on the sensor display? Like how 'ActiveSensorComponent' has its blue area indicated and 'VisualSensorComponenet' has its yellow area indicated. A green (some other aesthetic colour) area for 'PassiveSensorComponent' would be good as it indicates to the pilot how far the passive systems should be able to pick things up with. 

 

Cheers

 

[chortles 263]

1 hour ago, xxgetbuck123 said:

@oukej 3 questions

 

Q1) When config'n a 'LaserSensorComponent', does the 'Class AirTarget/GroundTarget' parameters 'minRange/MaxRange' dictate how well the sensor can spot a laser that originates from either Air or Land?

 

For example, does the following imply that I'd be able to spot a laser from 8000m max and 200m min if the laser originates from an aircraft?

Based on the BIKI "The actual sensor's range is the smallest of [maxRange, resulting objectViewDistanceLimit, resulting viewDistanceLimit] but never lower than minRange", so in your example your object/view distance settings cannot push the effective range of that laser sensor below 200 m... however the 'actual' range in your example would seem to be 8 km irrespective of object/view distance because "-1 means view distance is not used to limit sensor range" for objectDistanceLimitCoef and viewDistanceLimitCoef.

 

In the current dev build all vanilla jets inherit their laser sensor component 1:1 from the template, which has maxRange = 4000; and minRange = 500; but objectDistanceLimitCoef = 1; and viewDistanceLimitCoef = 1; for both classes airTarget and groundTarget.

1 hour ago, xxgetbuck123 said:

Q2) Is there a way to slave the 'VisualSensorComponent' to a TGT Camera? So where the camera looks the sensor also looks? Also allowing for FOV adjusting + sensor angle depending on TGT zoom levels etc?

Anxiously wondering this one too since you can already 'slave a sensor' to a modeled turret (i.e. animDirection="mainTurret"; ) but I don't know how to do it with the virtual TGP.

1 hour ago, xxgetbuck123 said:

Q3) Would it be possible to get a 'PassiveSensorComponent' range/area indicator on the sensor display? Like how 'ActiveSensorComponent' has its blue area indicated and 'VisualSensorComponenet' has its yellow area indicated. A green (some other aesthetic colour) area for 'PassiveSensorComponent' would be good as it indicates to the pilot how far the passive systems should be able to pick things up with.

You can config mod in a color for individual vehicles, but the passive radar template (from which it seems all vanilla aircraft currently inherit 1:1 from) has it 'blank' ( color[] = {0,0,0,0.8}; ) current values seem to make one unnecessary: the ranges in the template (air/ground, min/max, even the typeRecognitionDistance) all match the max display resolution on the current sensor displays of 12 km and the coverage is a full sphere, 360 degree coverage both horizontally and vertically.

[xxgetbuck123 945]

4 hours ago, chortles said:

Based on the BIKI "The actual sensor's range is the smallest of [maxRange, resulting objectViewDistanceLimit, resulting viewDistanceLimit] but never lower than minRange", so in your example your object/view distance settings cannot push the effective range of that laser sensor below 200 m... however the 'actual' range in your example would seem to be 8 km irrespective of object/view distance because "-1 means view distance is not used to limit sensor range" for objectDistanceLimitCoef and viewDistanceLimitCoef.

 

In the current dev build all vanilla jets inherit their laser sensor component 1:1 from the template, which has maxRange = 4000; and minRange = 500; but objectDistanceLimitCoef = 1; and viewDistanceLimitCoef = 1; for both classes airTarget and groundTarget.

 

I already know what the min and max means in terms of sensors effectiveness and whether it can pick shit up, I'm asking for confirmation that if its a laser that originates from an aircraft does that mean I'll only be able to see it between 200m - 8km? Because its defined under 'class AirTarget'. For example, whereas if I had a 'class LandTarget' and only put 500m - 2km, does this mean I'll only see the laser that originates from a land vehicle between those distances? If the said land vehicle is trying to lase a target that's over the 2km range I magically wont see the laser? 

 

The above the reason I ask is cause it makes it sound like a laser from and aircraft and a laser from a land vehicle are 2 different things. 

 

 

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Yea didn't someone suggest making the active radar on the AA actually move with the spinning radar disk on top? Hoping for TGT Camera now

 

 

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I made the F35 Passive radar full 360 coverage to imitate the irl F35 360 coverage, though it would be good to have a colour indication of how far that is on the sensor panel. 

 

 

[chortles 263]

15 minutes ago, xxgetbuck123 said:

 

I already know what the min and max means in terms of sensors effectiveness and whether it can pick shit up, I'm asking for confirmation that if its a laser that originates from an aircraft does that mean I'll only be able to see it between 200m - 8km? Because its defined under 'class AirTarget'. For example, whereas if I had a 'class LandTarget' and only put 500m - 2km, does this mean I'll only see the laser that originates from a land vehicle between those distances? If the said land vehicle is trying to lase a target that's over the 2km range I magically wont see the laser? 

 

The above the reason I ask is cause it makes it sound like a laser from and aircraft and a laser from a land vehicle are 2 different things. 

Oh no no no, as far as I know originating from an aircraft or a ground/surface vehicle is irrelevant... as per the BIKI the airTarget class "[d]efines the sensor detection range in look-up conditions, when the target is positioned against a sky background" and groundTarget "[d]efines the sensor detection range in look-down conditions, when the target is positioned against ground clutter. Properties are the same as in airTarget." In both classes "t's possible to cap the range by viewDistance (or its portion) for systems that work within visual range. Set the DistanceLimitCoefs to -1 to disable any impact of view distance on the sensor for beyond visual range systems."

[dr. hladik 231]

4 hours ago, xxgetbuck123 said:

 

Yea didn't someone suggest making the active radar on the AA actually move with the spinning radar disk on top? Hoping for TGT Camera now

 

 

Not recommended as target visibility is not tested each frame.

[chortles 263]

28 minutes ago, dr. hladik said:

Not recommended as target visibility is not tested each frame.

Is that regarding 'active radar on AA moving with spinning radar disk on top' -- I imagine that it's doable by config modding the active radar's angleRangelHorizontal value to < 360 and the animDirection value to the model selection name of said spinning dish -- or about whatever xxgetbuck123 meant by "TGT Camera"?

[oukej 2911]

6 hours ago, xxgetbuck123 said:

 

I already know what the min and max means in terms of sensors effectiveness and whether it can pick shit up, I'm asking for confirmation that if its a laser that originates from an aircraft does that mean I'll only be able to see it between 200m - 8km? Because its defined under 'class AirTarget'. For example, whereas if I had a 'class LandTarget' and only put 500m - 2km, does this mean I'll only see the laser that originates from a land vehicle between those distances? If the said land vehicle is trying to lase a target that's over the 2km range I magically wont see the laser?

Air and GroundTarget classes only relate to the target's background. For LaserSensorComponent you'd probably want to use the same ranges for both.

[teabagginpeople 398]

6 hours ago, xxgetbuck123 said:

 

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Yea didn't someone suggest making the active radar on the AA actually move with the spinning radar disk on top? Hoping for TGT Camera now

 

 

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Wasn't the spinning dish request for a visually splendid way to tell if the AA had its radar active?

[xxgetbuck123 945]

2 hours ago, chortles said:

Is that regarding 'active radar on AA moving with spinning radar disk on top' -- I imagine that it's doable by config modding the active radar's angleRangelHorizontal value to < 360 and the animDirection value to the model selection name of said spinning dish -- or about whatever xxgetbuck123 meant by "TGT Camera"?

 

The new targeting cameras that old mate Oukej and his mates added back in April, 2016. 

 

37 minutes ago, oukej said:

Air and GroundTarget classes only relate to the target's background. For LaserSensorComponent you'd probably want to use the same ranges for both.

 

Ahh yeah I think I get ya. I think I keep confusing 'AirTarget/LandTarget' with an actual target, not something like 'AirBackground/LandBackground'. But yea I think shes good. 

 

31 minutes ago, teabagginpeople said:

Wasn't the spinning dish request for a visually splendid way to tell if the AA had its radar active?

 

Yea that's what I remember. A good visual indicator when a vehicle has its sensors active so people can determine whether its active or not etc.. 

 

 

[Sniperwolf572 758]

4 hours ago, chortles said:

Is that regarding 'active radar on AA moving with spinning radar disk on top' -- I imagine that it's doable by config modding the active radar's angleRangelHorizontal value to < 360 and the animDirection value to the model selection name of said spinning dish -- or about whatever xxgetbuck123 meant by "TGT Camera"?

 

What I believe he is saying is that radar isn't checking each frame for targets in it's detection radius, so depending on the configuration of the animation source you attached your radar detection radius to, you have a good chance of radar not working as intended.

 

For example, let's assume you have targets all around you at every degree, and your radar detects everything in 180 degree radius. The radar might be spinning fast enough, where you will always see targets in front of you, but never behind you due to the timing of the target updates and rotation of the detection area, even tho you will see the radar cover every direction.

 

Theoretically this could happen even with turret mounted radar if you flick the detection radius fast enough.