Co-op Campaign: APEX PROTOCOL

[Varanon 892]

Hey man, that's not fair - We got one civ plane as well! ;)

Right, I said car and jeep, I meant to say plane and jeep

Sent from my SGP511 using Tapatalk

[dragon01 902]

Forgot about the plane! ;-) Dis we get another car for the Civi's other than the jeep??

Seriously I personally would pay for a decent, diverse, Civi "factions" expansion to enable a wee bit more depth...... They were sorely missed in East Wind and especially Apex Protocol in my opinion but going off topic from the structure of the campaign. I've been replaying some of the original Showcases in East Wind and it reinforces to me that again it's a sadly missed opportunity to show off what Apex does have to offer......

Well, NATO and CSAT gear could just be integrated into their own showcases. I think this should be done. Syndikat should get its own showcase, set in some picturesque area of Tanoa and styled as an illegal arms market or something.

[petek 62]

Well, NATO and CSAT gear could just be integrated into their own showcases. I think this should be done. Syndikat should get its own showcase, set in some picturesque area of Tanoa and styled as an illegal arms market or something.

I was thinking more like the non-Faction asset specific Showcases like "Armed Assault", "Helicopter", "FFV", "Marksman" etc.... we only got "Endgame"

Cheers

[frostwyrm333 1]

I have finally started up the Apex Protocol campaign, the game will crash eventually for me after about an hour and half. The game is obviously leaking memory.

However, I got a crash twice just before completion of the Apex Protocol mission. When you are supposed to approach Miller, the game will stutter and then crash because of  memory violation.

Since you can't save in these missions I have to replay it from the start and I'm kinda sick of it already.

 

Is it even possible to get a normal experience with 4 GB of ram now?

[dragon01 902]

I was thinking more like the non-Faction asset specific Showcases like "Armed Assault", "Helicopter", "FFV", "Marksman" etc.... we only got "Endgame"

Cheers

The fact that you're asking for it is a testament to how inadequate Apex Protocol is. :) In an exapansion like that, the campaign should've been more of a showcase than you'll ever need. That one fell kinda flat, though. It does supposedly showcase Tanoa quite well, but aside from that...

 

Once the fix the Blackfish, they should make the "Showcase: VTOL Gunship" which would let you provide some CAS in the Blackfish. Of course, it'd be unplayable right now, as the armed Blackfish has serious stabilization and lead compensation issues, not to mention AI being hardly able to land it.

[MartinFromZeusCommunity 15]

It does supposedly showcase Tanoa quite well, but aside from that...

Not really. We did not even get to visit one of the towns, everything happened in the outskirts.

[inlesco 233]

Not really. We did not even get to visit one of the towns, everything happened in the outskirts.

For some, towns may heavily lag, especially with custom mission setup + scripts running in the background. AI inf. and vehs. pathfinding in tows also sucks. There are many reasons no mission was ever setup in a large town.

[MartinFromZeusCommunity 15]

I think that you need to either further optimize or lower the graphical ambitions of your game, if parts of it are so demanding they become unuseable for official content. As for AI I believe they have worked fine enough in previous missions that took place in towns, but if that is not good enough the obvious answer would be to improve the pathfinding of the ai or optimize the towns to work with the existing pathfinding. Spending months adding all those cool towns only to be like "this is not good enough for gameplay" that's just sad.

[johnstewjohnny 10]

Hi, I am completely new to Arma series, I have literally just discovered it on youtube after googling something like "realistic hardcore FPshooter". I watched a LOT of gameplay on youtube. 

 

While I love the gameplay (it is certainly nothing like anything I've ever seen before - it looks beyond amazing) I decided against getting the game for now (I mean no offense, please don't crucify me just yet) because:

 

1) Apex official campaign has respawns instead of saves. When you respawn, enemies you killed previously are still dead, your ammo is replenished... is this a WoW-like MMORPG mob grind? 

 

that's literally the only reason... don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the gameplay itself, but what's the point if I have infinite lives and I can simply grind kill enemies 1 by 1 until I win, no matter how many times I die?

 

I play every single game on hardest difficulty possible (without ever trying it out on lower difficulties) and I thought that Arma3 was a "hardcore" shooter. I played FarCry1 on Realistic difficulty without dying (and if I died, I started the whole level from 0) just to make it more tense. I also played Crysis 1 and 2 on hardest difficulty without saving/loading and without dying (if I die, I start the WHOLE game from the beginning) because I really want to actually feel the danger and tension/fear of being in a life threatening situation while playing Arma3.

 

How cool would it be if you could immerse yourself in the game so much that you actually will try your very best to not get killed? Sure, if I die during a mission, I can artificially gimp myself and start the whole thing again (like I did in Crysis), but I really don't want to do that...

 

I have just thought of another way to say why I don't want to buy Arma3 at the moment, even tho I love the gameplay. Reading the comments on youtube and this forum about Apex campaign, it seems that Arma3 is going out of its way to "cater to casuals". I don't want to get invested into a game that will eventually turn into some sort of CoD. 

 

I wrote this because I want to play this game, but at the moment this issue is bothering me too much and is a deal-breaker for me, I want it to be good. Having infinite lives is nonsense. 

 

Is there any hope this will get changed? I understand it's supposed to be co-op, and I don't mind co-op at all, but when I play solo, I want consequences if I screw up and get killed.

 

//bold is new caps :P

 

I read a lot of comments in here, I think IndeedPate put it more eloquently than I did. . 

 

[Variable 322]

Hi, I am completely new to Arma series, I have literally just discovered it on youtube after googling something like "realistic hardcore FPshooter". I watched a LOT of gameplay on youtube. 

 

While I love the gameplay (it is certainly nothing like anything I've ever seen before - it looks beyond amazing) I decided against getting the game for now (I mean no offense, please don't crucify me just yet) because:

 

1) Apex official campaign has respawns instead of saves. When you respawn, enemies you killed previously are still dead, your ammo is replenished... is this a WoW-like MMORPG mob grind? 

 

that's literally the only reason... don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the gameplay itself, but what's the point if I have infinite lives and I can simply grind kill enemies 1 by 1 until I win, no matter how many times I die?

...

 

I wrote this because I want to play this game, but at the moment this issue is bothering me too much and is a deal-breaker for me, I want it to be good. Having infinite lives is nonsense.

Good job BIS for your new strategy to attract new players! Looks like it's working.

[zoog 18]

@johnstewjohnny:

- Arma 3 is so much more than the 7 mission co-op campaign in Apex. The regular Arma 3 campaign has enough content to enjoy the tension gameplay without respawn etc (and I'm not even talking about all the user made campaigns and scenarios). Truthfully, many people even never play any official content (hence why they tried to make it more accessible), because there is so much community made content for all sorts of playstyles.

- Arma 3 is not catering to casuals and turning into a new CoD. Yes, the Apex co-op campaign is not what most expected, and easier/different/more accesible with the respawn system etc. which most of us don't like. But thinking that Arma 3 will go into CoD type of gaming is overreacting.

Truthfully, there is no reason to not buy Arma 3 if you are interested in military/tactical FPS gaming that's not dumbed down. Honestly, basing your opinion on this Apex co-op campaign actually shows that you're new to Arma, because Arma is not just about some official content or missions, it's a big sandbox environment with unlimited diversity and unlimited custom content waiting to be discovered :) So yeah, don't read into the negative reactions too much if the whole arma verse is still new for you and waiting to be discovered really. There is so much to do and experience within the Arma environment that a generally badly received 7 mission co-op campaign is just a drop in the ocean and shouldn't be the deciding factor AT ALL :)

Don't miss out just because of the negativity surrounding the Apex co-op campaign. There is so much more!

[petek 62]

@johnstewjohnny:

 

Welcome to Arma - it's worth it!

 

As zoog rightly says there is so much more to Arma than Apex. I'd view it really as a great new Island to explore (my views on the Campaign have been stated at length;-)) BIS are great developer and worth supporting (and East Wind and showcases etc... are worth checking out.

 

There is also a massive amount of stuff made by this excellent community .... and don't forget the editor!

 

I think a lot of us are hoping Apex Protocol is more of a "blip" than a new focus .... please God;-)

[domokun 515]

Personally I can't help thinking that there are 2, almost diametrically opposite groups here: Casuals & Hardcore:

Casuals: players who want a quick and easy game

Hardcore: players who are willing to invest dozens (hundreds?) of hours in return for a challenging experience

I think that there should be no snobbery of 1 group versus another. I was certainly Hardcore 10+ years ago with OFP & A1 but since I got married, had kids & renovated an old house, I've fallen into the Casual category ;)

 

I understand BIS change in strategy from Hardcore to Casual as a vector for growth but I think it'd also be wise for them to not ignore their roots. I'm not talking as a misty-eyed romantic but as a hard-nosed software consultant where each product must constantly re-engineer or risk loosing its USP (Unique Selling Point), i.e. don't be another CoD. 

 

As the needs of these 2 groups are so different, how about a compromise? Where BIS develops campaigns aimed at the Hardcore but which offer many "player aids" to help lower the bar for Casual gamers, e.g. Respawn, Save, Revive, etc.

For example, many cars these days offer "driver aids", e.g. cruise control, ESP, traction control, automatic braking. These driivers aids are there to increase safety but also help drivers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_driver_assistance_systems

Of course, there are drivers who consider these aids to be frivolous and perhaps even dangerous. So guess what? They can be deactivated!

So why no a similar approach in Arma?

 

BIS please give your players challenging (difficult, risky, long) campaigns but with player aids to help beginners. But above all, give your players the option to choose, i.e. deactivate these player aids.

Inevitably a mission designed to be played with all the player aids activated will play very differently, probably much harder, with some or all the aids switched off.

But at least, it offers the Hardcore crowd an option, which right now most of regret the absence of.

 

BTW I really respect the BI devs coming here and taking the flak. Equally being so candid.

I really hope that this is a constructive discussion and not flame war and/or feeding the trolls.

[djotacon 190]

Hi, I am completely new to Arma series, I have literally just discovered it on youtube after googling something like "realistic hardcore FPshooter". I watched a LOT of gameplay on youtube. 

 

While I love the gameplay (it is certainly nothing like anything I've ever seen before - it looks beyond amazing) I decided against getting the game for now (I mean no offense, please don't crucify me just yet) because:

 

1) Apex official campaign has respawns instead of saves. When you respawn, enemies you killed previously are still dead, your ammo is replenished... is this a WoW-like MMORPG mob grind? 

 

that's literally the only reason... don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the gameplay itself, but what's the point if I have infinite lives and I can simply grind kill enemies 1 by 1 until I win, no matter how many times I die?

 

I play every single game on hardest difficulty possible (without ever trying it out on lower difficulties) and I thought that Arma3 was a "hardcore" shooter. I played FarCry1 on Realistic difficulty without dying (and if I died, I started the whole level from 0) just to make it more tense. I also played Crysis 1 and 2 on hardest difficulty without saving/loading and without dying (if I die, I start the WHOLE game from the beginning) because I really want to actually feel the danger and tension/fear of being in a life threatening situation while playing Arma3.

 

How cool would it be if you could immerse yourself in the game so much that you actually will try your very best to not get killed? Sure, if I die during a mission, I can artificially gimp myself and start the whole thing again (like I did in Crysis), but I really don't want to do that...

 

I have just thought of another way to say why I don't want to buy Arma3 at the moment, even tho I love the gameplay. Reading the comments on youtube and this forum about Apex campaign, it seems that Arma3 is going out of its way to "cater to casuals". I don't want to get invested into a game that will eventually turn into some sort of CoD. 

 

I wrote this because I want to play this game, but at the moment this issue is bothering me too much and is a deal-breaker for me, I want it to be good. Having infinite lives is nonsense.

 

Is there any hope this will get changed? I understand it's supposed to be co-op, and I don't mind co-op at all, but when I play solo, I want consequences if I screw up and get killed.

 

//bold is new caps :P

 

I read a lot of comments in here, I think IndeedPate put it more eloquently than I did. . 

 

 

 Some people doesnt know that all the Wasteland, Exile, Life, Z-mods, Domination, Patrol-ops, other's public missions, has infinite lives as default settings. :o 

 

I don't see such drama in this public mods/missions. :P

[Alwarren 2767]

While I love the gameplay (it is certainly nothing like anything I've ever seen before - it looks beyond amazing)

It is. It is positively unique, there is no other game that even comes remotely close to it.

 

1) Apex official campaign has respawns instead of saves. When you respawn, enemies you killed previously are still dead, your ammo is replenished... is this a WoW-like MMORPG mob grind?

That's exactly the reasoning I put forward for not liking the campaign. Respawn does NOT replace game saves. It resets YOU to zero and the enemies stay dead, so you have to just repeat it over and over until you finished the mission. There is no point of failure.

 

I really want to actually feel the danger and tension/fear of being in a life threatening situation while playing Arma3.

And that is exactly why I play no-respawn missions. I play with a group called Comrades in Arms. We don't play respawn missions. If you die during a mission, you are dead. You have to sit it out until the mission is over, which can take up to two hours or even more in rare cases. It makes you value your life, it replaces stupid run-and-gun tactics with actual thought, strategy and tactics.

Just as an example that we had recently. It was a night time encounter in Chernogorsk. We had just finished the mission goal and were about to extract when we were spotted by a Shilka. It immediately opened fire on us, killing half the team, and pinning the rest in the compound we just tried to get out of. Lacking any AT capabilities, the only thing we had left were two satchel charges. So what did we do? One of the team poked out his head, attracting the Shilka's attention, while I made a desperate dash into the roadside ditch, creeping up to the Shilka and planting charges on it. Then I run like hell and blew the thing up.

The excitement and relief I felt during that action was next to none. I literally started to sweat and my heart was pounding when I realized the thing was dead and I had surived it.

THAT is Arma. THAT is the thing you can only do in a game like this, a game where every time you launch a mission you have a slightly different experience, and surprises cna be around every corner.

 

How cool would it be if you could immerse yourself in the game so much that you actually will try your very best to not get killed? Sure, if I die during a mission, I can artificially gimp myself and start the whole thing again (like I did in Crysis), but I really don't want to do that...

Really, I wouldn't judge the game by the campaign. This hasn't been the case before, and I would wager that 99% of missions you will play (single- or multiplayer) will be very different. I would really recommend getting it, not for the campaign but for everything else.

 

I have just thought of another way to say why I don't want to buy Arma3 at the moment, even tho I love the gameplay. Reading the comments on youtube and this forum about Apex campaign, it seems that Arma3 is going out of its way to "cater to casuals". I don't want to get invested into a game that will eventually turn into some sort of CoD.

The good thing about Arma is that it is moddable, and you will find that almost nobody plays a completely vanilla game. Don't like the 2035 scenario? There are things like RHS and CUP that bring current-day units to the field. If you like Vietnam war era, or Cold War, or WW2, there's something for everyone.

 

Is there any hope this will get changed? I understand it's supposed to be co-op, and I don't mind co-op at all, but when I play solo, I want consequences if I screw up and get killed.

Well the APEX campaign is pretty short anyway. The East Wind campaign is much longer, much better, and does not have any of that respawn nonsense. I don't think that the way that the APEX campaign plays out is in any way representative of the rest of the game, neither the BIS content nor the user-generated content. If you play single-player, you will be hard pressed to find any respawn. If you play multiplayer, then respawn is possible, but I recomment seeking out communities like CiA that play hardcore no-respawn missions, there are plenty to go around.

 

[Varanon 892]

 Some people doesnt know that all the Wasteland, Exile, Life, Z-mods, Domination, Patrol-ops, other's public missions, has infinite lives as default settings. :o

 

I don't see such drama in this public mods/missions. :P

 

Because you are not getting the point, that's why.

 

Wasteland, Exile, Life, etc, they are typical hop-in-hop.out gameplay, like Battlefield, for example, Yes, you have respawn there, because it's part of the core mechanic when you play with "unknown" people (yeah, pun intended).

They are not Coop, though, which makes your only (albeit feeble) attempt at an argument void.

[Wiki 1558]

Some people here are totally off topic or got it wrong.

Most people here don't rage against ArmA / Apex.

Only against the campaign. That is the point of the thread.

[cosmic10r 2331]

I had a chance to play 4 player campaign with some of the guys and it was quite fun. Definately better with friends but as has been stated at quite some length and with a lot of emotion...

The revive needs parameters

-length of bleed out

-number of respawn

-whether to respawn with new kit or old kit

I think it would be quite enjoyable to attempt a play through of the campaign with 0 respawn for the whole team and ArmA has always been a great vehicle for "play it your way" so would love to see these options become available....

[R3vo 2654]

I think it would be quite enjoyable to attempt a play through of the campaign with 0 respawn for the whole team and ArmA has always been a great vehicle for "play it your way" so would love to see these options become available....

 

That would make for a great steam achivement ;)

[djotacon 190]

Because you are not getting the point, that's why.

 

Wasteland, Exile, Life, etc, they are typical hop-in-hop.out gameplay, like...

 

Like APEX DLC campaign maybe?

 

I get the point, I think... ;)

[djotacon 190]

Some people here are totally off topic or got it wrong.

Most people here don't rage against ArmA / Apex.

Only against the campaign. That is the point of the thread.

 

Who is raging against APEX/DLC entirely?

 

All the comments I read are against "the true and pure form of realisms" that the campaign dont have.

 

In a drop-in, drop-out modern COOP campaign is impossible add more "realism" than Arma 3 core mechanics provide.

[Alwarren 2767]

In a drop-in, drop-out modern COOP campaign is impossible add more "realism" than Arma 3 core mechanics provide.

 

easy, actually.

- Have four AI slots. People can JIP into AI, or leave it.

- Offer zero respawn and Save option

- Have a consistent team. Team Leader, Automatic Rifleman, Medic, LAT.

 

You notice that you only ever encounter light vehicles, no APC's? The reason for that is that due to the fact that there is no consistent team setup and instead anybody can just pick whatever he likes (most take sniper or grenadier anyway), the mission maker could not add any armour because nobody takes the AT guy. In fact, I wonder why the AT is even selectable, there is no armour and if you play him you are doomed to lug around all the weight for nothing.

 

I call that "bad design", not "modern". As I frequently pointed out, drop-in/drop-out is the 1.5 children case.

 

Feel free to answer with more incoherent buzzwords.

[lexx 1363]

If you play the AT guy on a public server, you'll always be last. Everyone else is running to the next objective, while you wait and try to get that red bar to be white again.

[IndeedPete 1038]

To be fair, other reasons you never encounter armour are: 1. it's in the jungle a lot of the time and 2. they didn't have any new tank assets to show for.

[johnstewjohnny 10]

thank you everyone for your replies. 

 

I see people mentioning the campaign not being the main thing in Arma3. I am aware of the editor, of all the multiplayer mods and communities. The thing is, while I surely would try out some co-op gameplay after I finished the campaign, the campaign would still be my number one priority. 

 

So while its 7 missions supposedly don't last long, I would take it as a core part of Arma3. Now I know that this might sound strange to someone who likes to mod their games, to use user-created-content, and build stuff in the editor themselves. 

 

I see Single Player as the most important aspect of a non mmo or e-sports game. So while I would try out all the different stuff Arma3 modding community has to offer, and while I would enjoy some hardcore missions in co-op where you don't respawn (I think I'd like that quite a bit actually) - I still think the campaign is the most important thing, because that's the first thing I would play. 

 

I don't care if the story isn't that great in Arma3, but I want to experience a game that has a wide variety of approaches to completing a single-player mission.

 

So to sum it up, I care greatly about singleplayer (no matter it is only 7 missions) but current "infinite amount of lives and no consequences for making mistakes" trivialize the singleplayer aspect to the point I have no interest in touching it. 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

The thing is, I don't mind giving 60 euroes on Steam for the game. But I imagine myself playing Arma for hundreds of hours over time, and not just 15-20 and never touch it again. So given that I really do want to invest my time into something like Arma3, "small" things like the "respawn issue" bother me greatly and I cannot get over it just because there is "user created content that doesn't feature respawns". 

 

I heard about Apex respawn system while watching a review on youtube, and the guy said something like "Apex has respawn system. Purists won't like it.". If that makes me a purist, he is quite correct in my case, unfortunately.

 

so please, no need to mention the many gamemods Arma3 community has provided. Official content is what matters to me above all else.

 

Then again, perhaps I am not the main "target group" for Arma3 devs. They know who they are getting their money from far better than I do/