Co-op Campaign: APEX PROTOCOL

[mistyronin 1181]

Have to agree with ya; BIS is clearly making a lot of efforts to streamline their game (the "units" thingy, instant play etc), but they might be going a tad too far - at least for the SP/COOP content.

I really wish they would make another attempt at truly dynamic campaigns (worthy of the 'campaign' designation); but it looks like they are going quite the opposite way.

BI are trying to turn Arma into BF / CoD, but those who want that kind of games prefer the originals. While doing so are losing part of their long-time followers. 

[IndeedPete 1038]

BI are trying to turn Arma into BF / CoD, but those who want that kind of games prefer the originals. While doing so are losing part of their long-time followers. 

 

Let's hope the feedback in this thread and, I really don't want to sound evil or mean here, hopefully some negative reviews on steam, YouTube, or in game magazines will serve as some sort of metaphorical warning shot to the team. To not push that casual stuff too hard. I'm all for accessibility. And I can see why that is both necessary and difficult to achieve in a highly complex game like Arma 3. But dumbing it down, even if we're not talking about mechanics but just content, is the wrong way to do so. That said, I hope they get the hint and we can burry Apex Protocol to get over it. I still wish Apex as a whole will become a commercial success and pay off, so the guys at Bohemia can continue to support this otherwise great and unique game.

[johnnyboy 3793]

Latest patch fixed it boys!  "Singleplayer" button now re-labeled "Play Solo".

 

Sorry BIS, couldn't resist...I will always love you, even if I'm a bit disapointed right now.

[petek 62]

Latest patch fixed it boys!  "Singleplayer" button now re-labeled "Play Solo".

 

Sorry BIS, couldn't resist...I will always love you, even if I'm a bit disapointed right now.

I just had to check this as assumed it was a joke...... it's not! Sadness turning to something else....

[teabagginpeople 398]

BI are trying to turn Arma into BF / CoD, but those who want that kind of games prefer the originals. While doing so are losing part of their long-time followers.

I sometimes feel bis don't realise what made the original dayz so successful. alot of people wanted a deeper more punishing gaming experience. Kinda like what dark souls provided for that game type. Why war horse studios kickstarter campaign was so successful for the medieval game they're making.

In just my own opinion The new campaign is a casualty of its casual approach. all based on top of a shallow predictable mission structure. Two shots in the gut. forget that release date. Call the meeting. Do tanoa and campaign fans justice.

[BL4DE 91]

There's a difference between modernizing the game like getting rid of action menu, switching weapons while moving and with number keys etc and dumbing down the game to make it appealing to the masses.

I know it's just a stupid campaign but if BIS continues this path if won't be long until they have to make a video like this lol

 

 

Please just remove the respawn mechanic and it will be like SWAT 4 COOP. Slow, methodical, planned gameplay and rewarding mission sucess or punishing failure. In current state there's no reason to play carefully just rush in like it's Quake 3 deathmatch, die and repeat.

[jassida 10]

How do I play the campaign please?

 

I have bought for me and my Dad and neither can see it.

 

We are on the sneak peek branch.

 

Thank you.

[mistyronin 1181]

We are on the sneak peek branch.

I'm afraid that right now it's only available in the dev branch, not in the sneak preview. 

[jassida 10]

I'm afraid that right now it's only available in the dev branch, not in the sneak preview. 

 

Thanks.

 

Just glad to be able to try it.

 

Seems a bit counter intuitive :)

[das attorney 858]

I also have fond memories of the Halo games, been playing them again and again with the brothers; they all had this COOP aspect too (Splitted screen or online) and it was well integrated IMO

 

My brother bought the "Halo anniversary edition" (or w/e it was called) a while ago so I got some booze in and went round his flat one weekend.  We sat there for 2 days and played it through from start to finish and it was still as good as when it came out in 2001.

 

The "Library" level still sucked balls but the rest of it was excellent.

 

I really liked that co-op mode - the basic gameplay was good and the campaign capitalised on that by giving you what was addictive about the game in liberal measure.

[VanZant 48]

Latest patch fixed it boys!  "Singleplayer" button now re-labeled "Play Solo".

 

Sorry BIS, couldn't resist...I will always love you, even if I'm a bit disapointed right now.

 

Wow, I though it was a joke but no, really!. What a wonderful changelog!.

 

Definitely marketing experts have invaded everything.

[pettka 694]

First things first, thanks a lot to everyone for the feedback. We are listening to it, as Zipper already stated, and we are already considering next steps.
 
One thing I would like to stress out is the main strength of Arma as I see it - it is a platform for diverse playstyles and we cannot make everyone happy. As diverse as Arma is, it needs even some of Your help to make it according to Your wishes. That's partially where the Apex Protocol comes in - it may serve as a bridge between You, core of our community that has played the game for literally thousands of hours, and newcomers. Apex Protocol was first and foremost meant to be accessible. That may sound harsh, but as much as the scenarios may seem easy and fast paced for You, that much they were harsh on people joining the Arma crowd. We have accepted a compromising condition of the campaign, that it won't be the best thing ever for our core users.
Even I like for example the Showcase: End Game better as it provides more military meaningful challenge, but even the approach to the mission matters. For one, I have really liked the fifth scenario of campaign mainly because of the achievement hidden in it - You need to do it without being detected by any enemy. And challenges like that change the experience from playing the campaign a lot. We have played several sessions with our military consultants and the game was really different. We set the rules for ourselves, and we didn't even need any respawn to finish the whole campaign. Working as a fire team of four, checking our approaches, covering each other, all the things I love the most about Arma teamplay were there.
 
The main constraint we imposed on ourselves while working on Apex was to provide a meaningful conclusion of first term after Arma 3 release. That includes adding new vehicle classes that we felt missing, and answering one of the most pressing community request about the East Wind campaign - to provide You with a more explained ending. There were many clues well hidden in the East Wind campaign, but we felt it's our duty to provide some ending that makes it easier to create a canon. This is a double-edged sword, on one hand, we needed to create a story-driven campaign, on the other, we wanted to provide chances for varied community to enjoy the playthrough in co-op. It may sound harsh, but we felt that the more hard core of our community is able to do better scenarios to fill their specific needs than we would ever be able to do, and this is why we decided for more linear story-driven approach that may show the possibilities that Arma 3 provides to the creators even on the production value scale. And obviously, one of the points was to showcase Tanoa as many of the scenarios lead You to the hidden beauties of the archipelago. We would like to return to the roots too, and there are still many plans for after-Apex development that may be closer to what You would expect, while obviously, given the diversity of the community, some of our steps are going to be even in other directions. There is no need to be afraid too much if You see a thing or two leading in a different direction in the future, that's inevitable, we still want to stay true to our heritage and prepare the best platform mainly for military gameplay.

[pettka 694]

Thanks.

 

Just glad to be able to try it.

 

Seems a bit counter intuitive :)

This should change pretty soon, we are running some last tests before the Sneak Preview branch update :icon_twisted:

[jeza 5416]

These days 50% SP 50% Coop for me so with this campaign together with some guys did it in 4 player coop. After the 'anticipation/excitement' had gone and I replayed it, then came here and read through the comments I find myself saying "oh yeah" and "mmm yup" to stuff. All been said previously but a big chunk of us don't just play singleplayer, we love singleplayer and have for over a decade and then some playing OFP/ArmA so to see it seemingly being backed away from sucks just from my pov.

 

But regardless of the SP aspect for a campaign story and immersion play a big role and one of the things I liked in the campaign is the attention to detail of just simply putting objects down on tables or have some trash cans there or parked cars, having a real environment was cool. That said I keep thinking, "why am I here" or "how did my squad get here, we were just over there" or "where is this gear coming from every time I spawn" and yeah its already been mentioned before but infinite respawns and kit selection, no no for me, I love the idea of picking your kit pre mission, like I did in vietcong or R6 and OGR because if you F*** it up make no mistake you will pay, here its like "Meh take marksman rifle, if its wrong when I die i'll grab the 416" - zero consequence.

 

Just I have a million games where I can play super solider with no consequences in a story mode, its just here I was kind of hoping/expecting a true challenge to the gamer be it SP or Coop. That said i recorded the entire playthrough looked back and we did have a laugh, it was fun in places but getting to mission five it was then a slog to go further I think for me at least its because, I was thinking well I'm not 'in' this or playing in a 'tacticoool' manner if we spend 40 mins planning and attacking one objective and nail it, we could actually do it in ten with all guns blazing no problems which kind of again for me lies a chunk of the problem, I was expecting you not really to be able to do that. Just my two cents right or wrong :)

[haleks 8212]

We would like to return to the roots too, and there are still many plans for after-Apex development that may be closer to what You would expect.

:wub:

 

Thanks Pettka, I sure hope you guys have plans for us "core" gamers.

[VanZant 48]

:wub:

 

Thanks Pettka, I sure hope you guys have plans for us "core" gamers.

 

Yes, there are. None at all.

[IndeedPete 1038]

While I really appreciate to hear about the developers' point of view, I'm curious as to how the current campaign should familiarise new people with the Armaverse. Bootcamp for example did a fantastic job in teaching basic navigation, driving, and shooting, topped off with a tiny bit of "real" combat. Even as an Arma "vet", I enjoyed playing it. But what does Apex Protocol teach new players about the core mechanics and the scope of the game? And what happens to a new player who just finished Apex Protocol and then heads over to East Wind or some community-made content? He will most likely have an entirely different experience. And probably fail or become frustrated.

 

And while we're at it, East Wind had lots of advanced hints and extra bits of optional dialogues to teach the game. I don't see how Apex Protocol delivers any form of useful introduction for new players. Maybe it's not in yet or I completely missed it, but from what I saw, it didn't have any kind of tutorial. Not even a recap on the narrative it builds upon, which was highlightened by another user here already.

[cosmic10r 2331]

I'm getting that it was designed as maybe a introduction where a hardcore arma fan could possibly be easier to pick with some buddies who are new to the franchise... maybe something that didn't require too many mods and would help bridge the gap between newer players and vets.

Which isn't a bad idea as such... we have a similar problem where I mountain bike where you go from a 4ft table jump to a 16ft gap jump with nothing in between to progress one from one to the other.

In any case

.. I was digging thru the campaign pbos from east wind and hopefully at some point they make the apex protocol pbos and we can maybe see a few of the talented mission makers add some interesting things and maybe flesh out the SP experience...

[das attorney 858]

First things first, thanks a lot to everyone for the feedback. We are listening to it, as Zipper already stated, and we are already considering next steps.

 

One thing I would like to stress out is the main strength of Arma as I see it - it is a platform for diverse playstyles and we cannot make everyone happy. 

 

Hi, firstly - well done on getting Arma 3 lead dev promotion - you're a genuine guy so hope it's going well for you  :)

 

Re: the campaign - I like it but as you say, Arma is very diverse so there's lot's of gameplay modes and styles to consider.  In my last post, I was alluding that Halo's creators played to the strengths of the game (which is easy as Halo had maybe 3 or 4 things it did really well).

 

I can see that given you can do practically anything with Arma, then you have a wider cross-section of folk that have an interest in your game and more people to (try and ) appease.

 

It must be difficult to pick which one to go for as a developer - (Personally I'm happier with MP focused campaign vs single-player campaign), but thinking back to some of the greatest games I've played, then they share both an amazing SP experience and then you can do it all again with your buddies online.

 

Obv this would require more resources so I can see why it hasn't happened but given the game has sold in excess of 2 mil copies, there's a lot of disappointed SP people (maybe up to 500,000 or so) and perhaps you guys could have charged another £5 or so for Apex and done something for them as well.

 

The way I see it is you guys are a business and these guys are customers so if you can make something for them at the right price, then it's good business to make it your business to do so!  :)

[Wiki 1558]

How about some people who will unpbo the campaign file and make it SP?

1) is it possible?

2) are there people motivated to do it?

3) what will BIS think about it?

[mistyronin 1181]

How about some people who will unpbo the campaign file and make it SP?

1) is it possible?

2) are there people motivated to do it?

3) what will BIS think about it?

Not yet, when they turn it into a pbo then yeah. If BI authorises the distribution. In any case it's played in Tanoa, so only APEX owners can play it. 

[BL4DE 91]

Tactical shooters usually go extinct by trying to appeal to casual audience. That's because casual players are the majority while we more hardcore players are the niche customers in this industry. I also miss the days of early 2000's when most FPS games were 50% singleplayer 50% multiplayer. Sometimes multiplayer was just the addition to the main game which was singleplayer campaign.

 

I have no problem with this campaign trying to appeal to casual players as long as they don't hard code casual features into the engine itself.

I really hope that BI makes some more old school campaigns true to the series. Not very pleased with Bohemia's stance on the matter that community should create that content themselves.

 

And you BIS definately did a better job at making singleplayer campaigns than community has since the series started.

CWC, Resistance, Armed Assault, Rahmadi Conflict, Harvest Red, Operation Arrowhead, Crimson Lance, Eagle Wing, East Wind... enjoyed the shit out them all even if they weren't perfect and had some flaws.

 

Please Bohemia please don't stop making classic true to the series singleplayer campaigns :)

[megagoth1702 252]

Love the campaign. It's accessible but hell yeah thats good for arma sales -> more money -> more features -> better game. :) It's all good guys, imho it was a good decision. I played the campaign tonight and it was fun as fuck.

 

In some cases I could not spawn on a team mate because it said "unit was killed", although he was moving around and was alive.

 

Maybe some more checks "if unit is alive" to make this system more stable?

 

It seemed to occur in heavy fight situations / when people often respawned. Especially in the last part of the last mission it was nearly impossible to spawn on a team mate.

 

 

Also, my friend respawned on a rooftop in the last mission. Not cool. :) He is afraid of heights.

 

http://i.imgur.com/71WTU4Y.jpg

 

Last mission.

Newly spawned player is named "Soldier".

 

http://i.imgur.com/ByOKgrq.jpg

[.kju 3244]

Without having it played, some suggestions:

1) Make difficulty settings influence the respawn:

• Easy: Like now
• Medium: Limited amount of respawn
• Hard: No respawn (just revive)

2) Make use of mission parameters

• Set the amount of respawns/lifes
• Ability to disable respawn altogether
• Ability to disable revive altogether
• Ability to tweak the AI skill
• Ability to remove AI restriction ("disabled move" etc)
• Ability to disable new ammo on respawn/keep equipment
• Ability to switch to team leader respawn (instead of position based)
• Other useful options

3) Add an option to enable AI members

4) Add an option to play with group respawn

All of these should be fairly easy and low effort to implement for an experienced MP scripter.

[pettka 694]

Tactical shooters usually go extinct by trying to appeal to casual audience. That's because casual players are the majority while we more hardcore players are the niche customers in this industry. I also miss the days of early 2000's when most FPS games were 50% singleplayer 50% multiplayer. Sometimes multiplayer was just the addition to the main game which was singleplayer campaign.

 

I have no problem with this campaign trying to appeal to casual players as long as they don't hard code casual features into the engine itself.

I really hope that BI makes some more old school campaigns true to the series. Not very pleased with Bohemia's stance on the matter that community should create that content themselves.

 

And you BIS definately did a better job at making singleplayer campaigns than community has since the series started.

CWC, Resistance, Armed Assault, Rahmadi Conflict, Harvest Red, Operation Arrowhead, Crimson Lance, Eagle Wing, East Wind... enjoyed the shit out them all even if they weren't perfect and had some flaws.

 

Please Bohemia please don't stop making classic true to the series singleplayer campaigns :)

While I think that community should create content for themselves, because if not, why would we even bother with the new Eden Editor added thanks to Apex, it's definitely not what I have said. The difference is that You, the community, are better at tailoring the content specifically to the needs of Your groups. Hell, watching for example the way RG (sorry, guys, You had the last live-stream and came to mind first) plays their missions, it is something we may possibly deliver, but most of You would still want to customize it. Each unit has their way of playing the game, with a lot of specifics. That is the diversity of Arma community I'm speaking about. We might have chosen an approach that doesn't fit Your playstyle, still, we didn't suddenly forget how to make authentic scenarios as You may see even in the Showcase: End Game and the new End Game modes.

 

While I have seen tons of comments all along the forums that people don't play our campaigns, and we have some numbers, Apex Protocol is a chance for us to show You something different, something that You would never play otherwise (and no, it's not any "Life" mod). The campaign has been clearly marketed as a co-op one, to be played with friends for best experience, yet, we want to support the military feeling of it. There's an armillion (or two) of things well hidden that support diverse gameplay. Even I was surprised during exfil from one of the missions when my teammates passed me in a previously well hidden van while I was driving a quad that was obvious. And that was just one of many moments when I have realized that Apex Protocol is different. Thanks to Tanoa setting, thanks to Eden Editor, we have created a meaningful environment in the scenarios with a lot of small stories just to be found. While some of You may not enjoy Apex to the fullest because of different approach they prefer, there is still a lot for the community to work with. If the result is an even better quality of community missions, I'll be glad, if it is combined with having a good time playing our content, I'll be happier :icon_twisted: