AI can see through tree tops?

[NeMeSiS 11]

That video is nice, but i feel it would benefit a lot from using a script like the one i used

. It just gives you the data from the game, rather than some interpretation by the viewer or narrator.

[semiconductor 309]

AI's knowlege of location kind of acts similarly, and you can see this easily if you play as a subordinate, and with extended hud info enabled (Maybe wrong, not at my gaming computer now). Leader will tell you to engage a target and you see a red marker on it. Sometimes when it ran behind a cover and stayed, you can see that the marker continues to move past the cover.

I totally forgot about those. Well, it seems that I was wrong - I've watched Greenfist's video and paid a close attention to the AI's spotting in-game and found no signs of AI retaining knowledge about player longer than necessary. In fact, I'm quite surprised how well BI managed to implement AI's targeting. I've based my opinion on knowsAbout command page (see helling3r commentary) but it seem that at least infantry's knowledge value drops instantly after player's disappearance. Perhaps tanks indeed have somewhat different behaviour due to their obvious spotting limitations.

 

Teleportation is not a supported mean of transportation in Arma ;)

I bet that some part of futuristic warfare fans is mildly disappointed by that fact. :D

 

Thought that was just a typo in the Thread but now it really deserves a Gif.

Is it a typo?  :huh:  Both the dictionary I use and Google Translate states that 'cop' is a synonym for 'top' although Oxford dictionary doesn't confirm that.

[Greenfist 1863]

I totally forgot about those. Well, it seems that I was wrong - I've watched Greenfist's video and paid a close attention to the AI's spotting in-game and found no signs of AI retaining knowledge about player longer than necessary. In fact, I'm quite surprised how well BI managed to implement AI's targeting. I've based my opinion on knowsAbout command page (see helling3r commentary) but it seem that at least infantry's knowledge value drops instantly after player's disappearance. Perhaps tanks indeed have somewhat different behaviour due to their obvious spotting limitations.

Actually the knowsabout value takes really long time to drop. My video illustrated the "known/guessed position" and if the AI had eye contact or not.

Knowsabout is more like a "how well recognized the target is".

[oukej 2910]

@ knowsAbout - I'd like to redirect you here (AI Discussion) where a similar discussion took place quite recently.

[pvt. partz 248]

   I undertand from reading through (scimming) this thread that bullets travelling through, and in a straight line, to the other side of a tree or bush is going to be "hit & miss". Yes I meant to punn it. As an example I was oh maybe 3 or 4 hundred yards shooting through the top of a pine tree with a 7.62 and could NOT hit the AI standing ther laughing at me. I could see the clumps of pine needles flying away but no contact on the enemy.

[DancZer 65]

Grubes, the issue is not that AI keeps track of contacts after they spotted them. The issue is (or seems to be) that AI can spot contacts right through objects, namley gras and trees:

(although afaik the tree-issue should be fixed in the dev branch already).

 

Interesting demo. What i see is that there is a serious issue with AI tree handling. Which basically 70% of the map. Do we have a ticket for that issue?

[NeMeSiS 11]

Interesting demo. What i see is that there is a serious issue with AI tree handling. Which basically 70% of the map. Do we have a ticket for that issue?

 

Already fixed IIRC.

[pd3 25]

Just experienced this myself actually, I was moving along the side of a building and in front of the building there is a rather bushy deciduous tree. 

I was being shot at but I couldn't see from where.

I actually had to move around the tree to discover that a building across the street had a guy on top who was completely blocked from my view, but could see me as soon as moved into his field of view as if the tree did not exist at all.

Rather annoying.

Again, this was another case in which the AI did not have pre-knowledge of my position, I was hidden by the side of the building until I moved into a position where I suppose I moved into their line of sight, even though we were mutually blocked.

Maybe I'll test it out from the position of the AI and see if there is any rational explanation for it.


EDIT

Yeah, I just checked it and maybe, just maybe there's a faint possibility that the AI could have caught a glimpse of the tip of the player's boot, but you'd have to be in a very specific position and from the position on the ground you are so completely obscured by the tree that it's very unlikely that any human player would notice an AI waiting there.

It's another case of the AI being too "sensitive", I equate it to them having ESP or something, they simply have far better means to detect than a player using their eyes would. I think it would be reasonable to say that making efforts to better simulate how the human eye can be deceived or delayed in perceiving with obscuring elements in it's visual field should be looked into.

Perceiving a small and insignificant part of the player's or another AI's model constitutes as seeing pretty much the entire individual as if there were no obstruction at all.

I'm still not convinced that the obstruction of the foliage isn't somehow faulty to be honest.

IMO, what blocks the AI should be the absolute furthest extent of the foliage/grass, etc period. Not the average length at which the player sees the obscuring effects, because the AI has absolutely no trouble at all picking out visual elements that most human eyes would overlook as background clutter. Since there's a stark dichotomy between "seeing" and "not seeing" for the AI, my opinion is, if the average person would have a highly difficult time making a determination of what might be seen, then the AI shouldn't be able to see it at all.

I'd honestly rather the AI be handicapped than have super senses. I suppose I should also point out that I have a number of the AI attributes turned down and it seems to have little to no effect at all. Considering the speed at which the AI detected and started firing on me, you would have thought I had just run out in the middle of the street.

[cosmic10r 2331]

I had a chance to test out the Adjustments to trees on Altis and Stratis with Greenfist's mission on 1.50 RC branch. Seems better.

 

[KeyCat 131]

Thanks for posting cosmic, haven't had the time to test myself and this looks better! How is the AI's ability to detect you when hiding in grass or behind bushes and you haven't been spotted before?

 

BTW: What sound mod are you using?

 

/KC
 

[Zriel 12]

At least tree trunks are like bulletproof glass for AI; they spot you through them, but won't shoot. Never even thought of testing tree tops, gotta try them too.

(In the video: trunks, bushes, smoke. Red means he sees me, green he does not. The arrow is where the AI believes I am.)

My testing mission here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zs0e86db28h3nwz/AI-detection-test.Altis.zip?dl=0 (very crude, might be bugged)

Extract to missions and open with editor.

Some handy tools in the action menu. Like a camera from enemy's point of view and Jedi force to fly the AI around like a kite.(e.g. for checking those tree tops)

Shift-click on the map to add waypoint for enemy.

You can edit it/change units but the main villain should be named 'enemy1' and on EAST side.

You'll need the dev branch build, because the targetKnowledge command is currently only available there.

edit. The pine tree trunks got fixed today :), but the big palm trees are still broken :(.

So!

1.50 is out, I can finally test this mission without the fuss of downloading dev branch. Let's see how things works

[Greenfist 1863]

So!

1.50 is out, I can finally test this mission without the fuss of downloading dev branch. Let's see how things works

You posted that at exactly the same time as I updated it. :) (Just some minor tweaks.)

If you're seeing the little debug display on the screen, you're running the latest version.

 

By the way, if anyone wants to port it to another map, just create a new mission on it and copy the init.sqf file to the mission folder.

Or rename it and run with: 0 = [] execVM "scriptname.sqf" (from the console for example)

[dr. hladik 231]

About smokes - AI does not see trough smoke.

But there was also a problem with DS where particles weren't simulated - this will be fixed in 1.52

[Zriel 12]

You posted that at exactly the same time as I updated it. :) (Just some minor tweaks.)

If you're seeing the little debug display on the screen, you're running the latest version.

 

By the way, if anyone wants to port it to another map, just create a new mission on it and copy the init.sqf file to the mission folder.

Or rename it and run with: 0 = [] execVM "scriptname.sqf" (from the console for example)

XD OK, redownloaded, will have to make some time to check it properly. Will see if on weekend.

[froggyluv 2135]

So I thought I was hallucinating but after many tests -its true that a certain AI DOES see thru vegetation -Armored. Using Greenfists AI detection tool - finally narrowed it down and can show that AI has no direct line of sight to me -im too tired and old to make slick video production so its a little long but its all in there. You can see in the 2nd half the APC's POV and he has no clear sight of my unit whatsover -yet gets a deadly shot within 2 seconds of my firing (im nearly 500m out and his turret is faced the other way). Wondering if the fact i was firing Armor piercing Bullets has any effect - but anyways..

 

 

[Von Quest 1163]

Thermal Vision?

[froggyluv 2135]

4 hours ago, Von Quest said:

Thermal Vision?

Dont think so - this first happened to me using Iron Front WW2 tanks. Also APC would have no way of knowing from which direction that shot came from so it would first need to start manually tracking different directions -the speed in which it located and fatally killed me is utterly ridiculous

 

At first i was sure it was some AI mod or script  -spent half the day trying to locate which one but by the end of the day -that was all vanilla save cba/cup

[froggyluv 2135]

Also notice how he has exact trajectory on me even though his knowsabout is only 1.5. This would explain why AT soldiers (manual type) have such little success against armor

[joostsidy 685]

It could also be just the APC class or even the Marid specifically that has overpowered detection. Just plop down a Marid and try to lay a satchel behind it for instance. It seems you are 'revealed' or the vehicle has (ye olde) 'awareness radar' which can result in overpowered detection. With some of the other vehicles this is not the case. Weapon type might also be a factor: firing a missile launcher seems to have a high detection value in general, firing one it often feels like you are 'revealed' instantly (somewhat explained by sound / missile trail / sensors). Perhaps this is also the case for a .50 cal rifle?

 

I'm not convinced that armor AI in general sees through vegetation, I think it depends on multiple factors.

 

In real life, IR sensors cannot look through vegetation, so IR sensors are not the answer.

[old_painless 182]

On 12/13/2019 at 4:37 AM, froggyluv said:

So I thought I was hallucinating but after many tests -its true that a certain AI DOES see thru vegetation -Armored. Using Greenfists AI detection tool - finally narrowed it down and can show that AI has no direct line of sight to me -im too tired and old to make slick video production so its a little long but its all in there. You can see in the 2nd half the APC's POV and he has no clear sight of my unit whatsover -yet gets a deadly shot within 2 seconds of my firing (im nearly 500m out and his turret is faced the other way). Wondering if the fact i was firing Armor piercing Bullets has any effect - but anyways..

 

That definitely looks off. In the first half the turret is not pointing towards you at all AND he is mostly behind the shed. So unless the APC moves away from the shed for a good LOS there is no way he locates you at that timespan, let alone takes a good shot. Can the spectator camera show the APC while you take the shot, that could be an interesting perspective?

 

For the 2nd half where the APC starts out with a LOS: although there is clutter thru the LOS he could see you if using thermal vision. Does the APC you chose have that - when gunner just press the N key to toggle from VIS (natural image) to various other modes. If so, could be interesting to see the test with an APC with no thermal vision.

 

I am definitely concerned about the first detection in your video, because even with thermal vision he should not be able to look thru the shed.

[dmarkwick 261]

Could it be some variant of the Boomerang technology? i.e. some on-vehicle doohickey that analyses sounds through a ring of microphones that can give a reasonably accurate location for incoming fire?

[csepi0101 2]

I just now encountered this problem that the enemy tank can see through the bushes and trees.

The map I use is invasion44 Neaville from arma2 and with its own bushes and trees, which are very beautiful

So far I have had no problems with the Ironfront-standalone game maps, there is no such problem there

I'm going to try Neaville with Ironfront-standalone trees and bushes, the Baranow type vegetation has a nice summer atmosphere

but still the i44 vegetation fits on the Neaville map better