Do donations work for arma modders?

[Variable 322]

What saddens me is a community that is definitely capable of supporting a content maker, as in the case of a Dyslexci, who's backed with more than 2,000$ on Patreon, and fails to support kju, who's definitely has no less of value for the community. I suppose that the crucial factor is how well known you are, and not how important you are. Don't get me wrong, I think community managers and movie makers are also important for the community in exposing Arma to a wider audience and increasing the appeal of the game, but the dramatic gap between the support on Patreon between these two examples is overwhelming, and disappointing.

Farwell kju, you'll be missed.

[fabio_chavez 103]

i wasnt meaning to compare Zeus and mcc AT ALL, quite the opposite in fact.

also the release date of Zeus is not an excuse for the status quo, here also, quite the opposite. :P

[brightcandle 114]

If the community was bigger it might support a wider set of paid community projects, but they also need to be projects people would pay for. I haven't yet seen one I wanted that suited our style of play so its of no surprise I haven't donated. The Arma community certainly isn't used to paying for its mods and all that means and its certainly not used to having its community split between the old game and new due to persistent issues in A3 with performance. So I think personally its the wrong environment to be asking for such things, its just not big enough or optimistic enough about the base game to be willing to invest in further content and mods, because they half expect BIS will just break it next week anyway.

[Jackal326 1181]

...and its certainly not used to having its community split between the old game and new due to persistent issues in A3 with performance...

If its one thing old-timers are used to, its that. A year into ArmA half of my squad at the time still played OFP, a year into ArmA2 many were still playing ArmA. The fact that so many are still playing ArmA2 probably isn't due to ArmA3's performance issues, its probably more to do with them not liking change (and not wanting to fight Iranian bug-men from the year 2035).

[icebreakr 3159]

^ Jackal exactly. Major turn off for me & my team too. We're using bunch of mods to overcome that CSAT shit.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

MCC has many years of development behind it, Zeus has been published in March last year (if i'm not mistaken).

It was developed by BIS, ok, but coding takes time for everyone. :D

I don' think it is fair to say it was developed by 'BIS'. Was pretty much a pet project for Karel Moricky for awhile. Sure they were paying him while he worked on it, but it was almost a 1-person project, with some supporting work.

In functionality it is comparable to MCC, with MCC having some very handy modules ... In usefulness, Zeus far better due to vanilla MP compatibility ... In terms of performance, Zeus blows MCC away, not due to fault of MCC but simply because it uses in-engine code which evaluates far faster than MCC scripts. Now, I don't know what MCC has been like in recent months, but that is my take from an early comparison mid last year.

[dmarkwick 261]

I see it as two problems:

1. Generally the perceived idea is that modding is done as it's own reward. IMO (and it is mine) if you don't do it for yourself you will not have sufficient motivation based on low donations.

2. If you wish to do it for money then an actual official way forward might be a better approach. Certainly someone like me would be hesitant to donate if I suspected that the entire project would disappear because I was in a minority. If someone was doing something I really wanted, and was fully determined to see it though regardless, but was vocally short of funds, it might be a different story. I might not donate a lot, but I might donate something in a month I have extra money. I've done this before, not often I admit, but I have done it.

All IMO natch, and in the spirit of passing info :)

[Varanon 892]

1. Generally the perceived idea is that modding is done as it's own reward.

Yes, and for smaller things, that's OK. But speaking from my own experience with CUP, getting things done takes sometimes several hours of your time, and if you have a job and a family, you can't commit to that. You need to somehow justify this.

Well, so what you do is you ask the community if they are willing to give a little back, and if (like in this case), the community doesn't give, then the consequence is that they won't get their mod anymore either.

[Jackal326 1181]

Yes, and for smaller things, that's OK. But speaking from my own experience with CUP, getting things done takes sometimes several hours of your time, and if you have a job and a family, you can't commit to that. You need to somehow justify this...

So a financial donation adds hours to the day? Or you expect to get such high donations you can quit your day job and "make a living" from modding?

[EddiePrice 16]

I can see a pattern developing here. Donations are on the rise, and if people are willing to donate then I don't see a problem with it keeping mods afloat if that's what they need to do so. However, what I would say is that in the old days you didn't see mod teams like FDF, FFUR or more recently ACE, fold up shop because they didn't turn a viable profit.

You need to somehow justify this.

If you need to justify time spent on a hobby, I think you're probably in it for the wrong reasons from the start and probably shouldn't bother.

Edited January 19, 2015 by EddiePrice

[Drongo69 117]

What saddens me is a community that is definitely capable of supporting a content maker, as in the case of a Dyslexci, who's backed with more than 2,000$ on Patreon, and fails to support kju

This is a very good point, especially considering that .kju makes huge contributions to OFP/Arma and Dyslexci contributes almost nothing and instead makes money off other people's work.

[nodunit 397]

One is popular amongst a few gaming communities, another large youtube channel and streams if I'm not mistaken, that plays a lot into it.

As rude as it may sound, we don't need donations to ENCOURAGE us to work on addons, they don't make more time magically appear, you aren't likely to get away with taking time away from work. Real life obligations happen and must be addressed, nothing is going to butter them up, either you have the time or you don't. You will never make the money you need for that on something like this, if you aren't a big youtube celeb or someone widely known because you play video games on a webcam then you aren't likely to benefit from this patreon thing much.

At the end of the day you need to decide if you are still enthusiastic enough, or have the time to work on this hobby, if you do then great...if you don't then you don't.

[chrisb 196]

Patreon is an interesting way to get your donations in. I had a look at it a few moments ago, it looks to be a personal KS type thing. Give me so much per month and I'll do this or that, depending on what your personal project, skill, life, or whatever, is.

I viewed this dyslexci gamers patreon, he plays lots of this series and runs a community, which is a noble thing to do. Just wonder though, when you put goals into your patreon funding, is that then earning from the game, or is it still donations, 'fine line' perhaps.

Offering what! for more funds, maybe other content. I've no idea, but there is a fine line there when you start putting goals into fundraising, it becomes a little more than a generous donation and more a cross between someone funding you, as in partial wage perhaps, or simply a donation.

So for arguments sake, you make videos of campaigns played in this series, then you put them on YT and ask to be supported via donations or regular funding. This then will enable you to put even more videos up. But isn't that earning from the game ?

Donations, in my view, are usually single payments made not very often and in many cases just once. Monthly donations, with goals attached, are more like a partial earnings.

Maybe its just the way it looks to me..:(

I can see giving to charity each month, but I don't think they then say, if we reach this goal and you donate so much you'll get this benefit...

Edited January 20, 2015 by ChrisB

[John Spartan 89]

Donations?

I'll will agree with NodUnit and few others - this whole "modding" thing is a great hobby of ours. We will create stuff regardless of donations, till we will have free time, inspiration and motivation.

If you want to make money then apply for a PRO level work and use this as part of your portfolio with some developer or studio. Or even start your own studio - kickstarter funding for great ideas worked quite all right for few passionate people with right approach and dedication to deliver "finished product" [you wont get away with a buggy concepts thou].

So it's simple if you don't have time or motivation then that's it. Real life comes first.

Don't try to force community to pay you to mod - that's not the right approach kyu, again if someone wants to say thanks that's different. Also as noted by some, how do you separate your work from work of others when asking for these donations, it might end up as a very selfish approach especially since your projects are based on others donating their work to you for free...

[R0adki11 3949]

Donations?

I'll will agree with NodUnit and few others - this whole "modding" thing is a great hobby of ours. We will create stuff regardless of donations, till we will have free time, inspiration and motivation.

I would agree with this idea also, at the end of the day i make addons as a hobby, i don't do it for money gain. When i released my Nogovan Armed Forces Park for A2, one update took me 8 months to get round to finishing. But it was at my time and my own pace and i enjoyed doing it, even strangely looking through 100s of lines of cfg code.

At the end of the day we do it because we enjoy doing it, i couldnt care less about donations. I have a real job for my income, if anyone wanted to donate money for my addon making, i would just rather give it to charity to someone else who needs it more than me.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Yes, and for smaller things, that's OK. But speaking from my own experience with CUP, getting things done takes sometimes several hours of your time, and if you have a job and a family, you can't commit to that. You need to somehow justify this.

Well, so what you do is you ask the community if they are willing to give a little back, and if (like in this case), the community doesn't give, then the consequence is that they won't get their mod anymore either.

Then it should never have been started in the first place. If you don't have time for your hobby, you don't have time. If BI ever allows payware, then by all means create things and charge a price you feel your time is worth (but beware, you'll probably barely break even), but otherwise? No. What you speak of sounds like extortion, and the day I give into that or remain silent while it happens on these forums will be a cold day in hell.

If you need to justify time spent on a hobby, I think you're probably in it for the wrong reasons from the start and probably shouldn't bother.

http://media.giphy.com/media/7LAqMVFxOGPAc/giphy.gif (445 kB)

[Varanon 892]

Then it should never have been started in the first place. If you don't have time for your hobby, you don't have time. If BI ever allows payware, then by all means create things and charge a price you feel your time is worth (but beware, you'll probably barely break even), but otherwise? No. What you speak of sounds like extortion, and the day I give into that or remain silent while it happens on these forums will be a cold day in hell.

Extortion ? Are you serious ? kju wasn't putting a gun to anyone's head saying "Give me money, or else...".... calling that "Extortion" is ridiculous

(And, let it be said again: I don't take money for my stuff, and never will.)

[fabio_chavez 103]

People ignore the argumentative course of this conversation, dont bother to actually read what kjus was saying and therefore dont care to adress the actual concernes raised in this thread but instead they keep repeating arguments that have allready been answered/refuted ("he does it for the money", "hes blackmailing the community", etc) they take the opportunity to tell everybody about their noble attitudes without responding to the topic at all and instead claim the moral highground to make uninformed moral judgements.

Thats does not reflect deliberation on this specific case, thats just blurping allready made opinions.

[Jackal326 1181]

Extortion ? Are you serious ? kju wasn't putting a gun to anyone's head saying "Give me money, or else...".... calling that "Extortion" is ridiculous

(And, let it be said again: I don't take money for my stuff, and never will.)

There wasn't a gun involved, but what it boiled down to was, "If I don't make enough money I'm leaving and the work I've done goes with me" - Its the ArmA equivalent of a kid throwing his toys out of the pram. At least that is the summary I took from this whole shit-show.

[fabio_chavez 103]

"If I don't make enough money I'm leaving and the work I've done goes with me"

please refer to sources for your claim... particulary the "the work I've done goes with me" part, im very curious where you read that from :)

At least that is the summary I took from this whole shit-show.

how did writing summarys, about things you didnt read, work out for you in school?

[edit]: what was the report for? answering a flame with a rhetorical question?

Edited January 20, 2015 by Fabio_Chavez

[Jackal326 1181]

You're right Fabio. I mis-summarised my thoughts and far from kju "taking all of his work with him" he has left it open to someone else to take up the mantle. I stand by my "toys out of the pram" remark though.

As for my schooling I'm not entirely sure that is any of your concern, but I did get an A on a book report on 'Lord of the Flies' without reading the book at all.

Edit: Also, I didn't report you, so get over yourself.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Jackal326

[peral 267]

Donations?

I'll will agree with NodUnit and few others - this whole "modding" thing is a great hobby of ours. We will create stuff regardless of donations, till we will have free time, inspiration and motivation.

If you want to make money then apply for a PRO level work and use this as part of your portfolio with some developer or studio. Or even start your own studio - kickstarter funding for great ideas worked quite all right for few passionate people with right approach and dedication to deliver "finished product" [you wont get away with a buggy concepts thou].

So it's simple if you don't have time or motivation then that's it. Real life comes first.

Don't try to force community to pay you to mod - that's not the right approach kyu, again if someone wants to say thanks that's different. Also as noted by some, how do you separate your work from work of others when asking for these donations, it might end up as a very selfish approach especially since your projects are based on others donating their work to you for free...

I agree with John on this, I mod when I can, because I love doing it.

[EddiePrice 16]

;2856083']Take away

• Most people don't seem to see a reason or need to donate as "it worked fine without so far"
  
• Most likely many people are still hesitant to sign up to paypal/credit cards to make financial transactions on the internet
  
• Small donations of 1-2$ seem like a very bad deal due to the high fees from paypal/banks (up to 40%)
  
• And as such are not done(?)
  
• While it is possible to reach the hardcore/long standing (forum) fans
  
• It seems very hard to reach the wider player community or people in communities/groups/clans
  
• Putting the text asking for donations into readmes' date=' release posts, forum signatures, content websites, etc don't seem to reach many people or can convince them
  [*'] Regardless most donation queries seem to get overlooked easily; it would had to put in the game or the platforms/applications people get the content from.
  
• Even complex project or/and with lots of content most people take for granted being available for free
  
• Not much thought is put into thinking about how the user made content has been made in the first place
  
• The considerable effort behind most projects/user made content is non obvious to most people
  
• Finally modding is seen as a hobby regardless of effort and skill involved
  

What I can't get my head round here is the insinuated entitlement in what was taken away from this donation campaign. No one asked for AIA (though a lot of people wanted it, myself included) or forced projects on kju, or any other modders who may feel donations are the only way to "justify" their work. This is why I think the wrong question has been asked. To "do donations work for ArmA modders?" I would respond "Are donations or financial benefits the right way to feel validated?". Based on what I've seen the answer to both with regards to modding any game is no.

I for one am sad to see it come to this, but I guess it's the changing face of the community.

Edited January 20, 2015 by EddiePrice

[nodunit 397]

Nah I get the point in that he made the thread to discuss experiences of people who have used various alternatives to the donation, hence the mention of the paypal fee, patreon, all of the information pertaining to the income and money alongside a mention of hurdles and what have you. Ultimately I don't think "we" as a modding community can really even catch the interest of a wide enough range of people to make these things worthwhile considering we don't generally offer the experience they look for.

We tend to range from simulating military equipment and actions from various 'eras' to some silly things, but few of these if any are what the masses want...quite simple its all about the online social interaction these days and wether or not a youtube personality, be it an established persona or an up and comer catches on and stays with it. I mean just look at the absolute most popular of mods, check their popular on youtube, see who is playing them, how many views their videos generally get and what the category pertains to.

I was simply saying that and Kju's info kind of supports this, you aren't going to make a living off of donations so don't even try, and in the end donations don't give you more time to spend working, going to school, being with your family, etc.

Edited January 20, 2015 by NodUnit

[roshnak 41]

Nah I get the point in that he made the thread to discuss experiences of people who have used various alternatives to the donation, hence the mention of the paypal fee, patreon, all of the information pertaining to the income and money alongside a mention of hurdles and what have you.

That's why I still want to know what kju meant by "do donations work?" Work in what sense? Make enough money to be worth having a donation link? Obviously if you make any money at all then it was worth it, since having a donation link is essentially free. Make enough money to create a sustainable living? Obviously not, and it seems a little silly to have thought that it would be possible given the size of this community and the nature of donations.

As far as I can tell, there isn't much room to discuss anything but kju's situation, since he is the only person to have come forward with any real expectations for donations.