France General

[tortuosit 486]

Do not allow this to turn into a thread full of rascist or intolerant ramblings or for spouting blame and personal ideologies.

 

I am interested in personal ideologies, tolerance, intolerance and all kinds of opinions (I disagree with the political construction "opinion xy is to be a crime soon"). I am less interested in seing people being killed caused by stupid thoughts. What happened in France causes rage and anger, that is pretty normal.

 

I feel sorry for our french neighbours.

[ineptaphid 6413]

I am interested in personal ideologies, tolerance, intolerance and all kinds of opinions (I disagree with the political construction "opinion xy is to be a crime soon"). I am less interested in seing people being killed caused by stupid thoughts.

 

I feel sorry for our french neighbours.

And I agree with you completely.However this forum is not the place for people to spout out blatantly racist arguments. I'm not saying those discussions should not take place, I just mean they must stay within the forums rules-which several posts up to now have not done.

[jw custom 56]

...he wasn't religious.

 

He's most probably another brainwashed guy...

 

Seems the same these days :(

[ProfTournesol 956]

"So-called Islamic State claims the lorry attack was carried out by one of its followers". The killer was known for drinking alcohol, not following ramadan, not making his prayers, etc. That would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

[krycek 349]

Unlike the other France terrorist attacks,right now I have to wonder if some members of the police or security forces are in bed with these fanatics or basically just criminally stupid.How the fuck do you let a truck pass unchecked in an area that you know it's off limits to traffic and it's full of people celebrating such an important day especially in Nice.

[IndeedPete 1038]

It's even worse if you hear that this guy was again known to the police, not a French citizen, and a convicted, violent criminal. I'm sorry, I'm all for tolerating a lot, but why on earth was this guy not banned from the country before? We're not talking about petty crimes here, not about an immigrant stealing from a local shop or anything. It was a guy involved in illegal firearms and violence. This is not tolerable in a democratic state with a rule of law.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Unlike the other France terrorist attacks,right now I have to wonder if some members of the police or security forces are in bed with these fanatics or basically just criminally stupid.How the fuck do you let a truck pass unchecked in an area that you know it's off limits to traffic and it's full of people celebrating such an important day especially in Nice.

 

Well in fact he forced security barriers, so he was sorta 'checked'.

[krycek 349]

Well in fact he forced security barriers, so he was sorta 'checked'.

In the vids I've watched he is seen as driving slowly,speeding only when he reaches the crowd of people.To me this says that they let him pass and he drove slowly not to attract attention until he was near the crowd.

This doesn't sound like forcing to me,they let this guy pass.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3691629/I-delivering-ice-cream-Nice-terrorist-told-police-stopped-truck-hours-promenade-massacred-84.html

[ProfTournesol 956]

In the vids I've watched he is seen as driving slowly,speeding only when he reaches the crowd of people.To me this says that they let him pass and he drove slowly not to attract attention until he was near the crowd.

This doesn't sound like forcing to me,they let this guy pass.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3691629/I-delivering-ice-cream-Nice-terrorist-told-police-stopped-truck-hours-promenade-massacred-84.html

 

Nope, before this video, he forced security barriers (i may remember he was shot by policemen at that moment), then he drove slowly on the road with people trying to stop him (the motorcyclist notably, and some policemen running after the truck), then he turned on the sidewalk and accelerated.

 

I don't say there wasn't a security failure though, it's quite obvious, some say there wasn't enough policemen, but you must understand that French police is completely exhausted after all the events it has to deal with (state of emergency, Euro 2016, Tour de France, Bastille day, multiple cultural events during the summer, etc.).

 

I think the right question is, should we allow so many events under state of emergency. Forbidding them would be a victory of IS, but there are probably too many of them for security to cope with.

[Rydygier 1317]

Frankly, I don't see, how any country could prevent all the terrorism with 100% effectiveness. How could prevent acts like this. Attacker, which could be virtually anyone, picks the place and time - can hit anywhere, especially if he doesn't care about own life, and will always keep the advantage and chance for success. He need to be strong only in the chosen spot and time to achieve his goal. Defender usually can't be strong enough everywhere/all the time unless he barricade himself in a castle for a lifetime. Clausewitz (IIRC) noted that long time ago, most likely not beeing the first one making this observation. A castle means here total invigialtion police state (which also doesn't give 100% assurance though). Such kind of protection will destroy what's supossed to be protected by the way, and would drain tremendous amount of resources constantly, especially in proportion to resources invested by terrorist, that need to be stopped. I mean, I don't get, why people/politicians are so shocked "how it could happen?" unless that's only the "media talk". Of course it could. All the time it can happen. Easily. Nothing to be shocked about here. I'm rather wondering, why acts of terror like that are that rare, when we have all these powerful terrorism vectors. Maybe because they tend to target important places and significant dates, which makes them predictable to the extend. If such acts would be executed purely at random... Anyway, I don't see a reason, why this one would be the last one, sadly. Seems likely, more will come from time to time if current status quo will be kept. The only consolation is, that's still way better than in some other countries, where people are killed every day year after year and somehow beside them nearly no one cares, no one is "shocked".

 

The best long-term approach, I can figure out right now is rather wise policy to minimize risk of appearance the will to act as terrorist which isn't trivial matter. Security services of course are obvious necessity to minimize the risk as much, as possible without sacrificing, what's defended here, and beeing shocked about their incompetence is quite understandable, still one have to take into consideration not only limits of resources but also inevitability of human error factor, so even here "shocking" doesn't mean "weird". Looking the guilty is somehow usual response in such cases, but it solves nothing and changes not much really or also nothing for better in case of classic scapegoat situation. The best, can be done with what happened is to learn from mistake to improve procedures or personel for the future. 

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Bosnia/Serbia paradigm moving westward.

 

Only, no NATO to white knight the Muslims in western europe ;)

 

 

I also note countries like Switzerland and Japan have very low rates of terrorism. Maybe western countries should seek to adopt some of their foreign policies. Of course, making political suggestions in this era seems to be just pissing into the wind.

[IndeedPete 1038]

Yes, the guys in Paris and Brussels were home-grown idiots for the most part. Nothing a wall could protect you from. Decades of failed integration politics, ignorance, and - in some cases - a false interpretation of tolerance brought this to us. Even in this recent case, we're not talking about a refugee who came here recently, I believe. Not to say there are no idiots among asylum seekers. But just closing the door will not get rid of the problem.

[zooloo75 834]

Yes, the guys in Paris and Brussels were home-grown idiots for the most part. Nothing a wall could protect you from. Decades of failed integration politics, ignorance, and - in some cases - a false interpretation of tolerance brought this to us. Even in this recent case, we're not talking about a refugee who came here recently, I believe. Not to say there aren't no idiots among asylum seekers. But just closing the door will not get rid of the problem.

 

Yes, there's no one-size fits all solution to stop this issue, it has to be solved in small steps. Countries still have to be smart about who they let in and their respective agencies need to be tougher on those who are suspected radicals. Closing doors *temporarily* will in the least reduce the flood of potential radicals and give people time to think of a viable solution, because face it, the world has a large problem on their hands and no one knows how to solve it yet. We know that a hefty majority of the terrorists are coming from those regions and are exploiting the immigration/refugee process. We know that there's an issue with "radical" Islam, or people trying to enforce Sharia, yet everyone is afraid to address these issues in fear of being labeled a racist xenophobe. Pro-Sharia Muslims can't exist within Western society without bringing upon these problems that we see nearly every month.

[IndeedPete 1038]

What? I was just being pragmatic.^^

 

I'm all for jailing or expelling violent extremists of all kinds. It's just that this is a thing we can only do after they exposed themselves. If we don't want that shit to continue, we have to prevent people from developing that kind of violent extremism. And that is nothing a mindless concrete wall can do.

[zooloo75 834]

What? I was just being pragmatic.^^

 

I'm all for jailing or expelling violent extremists of all kinds. It's just that this is a thing we can only do after they exposed themselves. If we don't want that shit to continue, we have to prevent people from developing that kind of violent extremism. And that is nothing a mindless concrete wall can do.

 

When borders were enforced, a majority of those whom preached the deadly ideology were at least contained. Now terror is widespread among the world. Tolerance for those whom do not tolerate is nonsense, it needs to be mutual. Better safe than sorry.

[dontknowhow 33]

What? I was just being pragmatic.^^

 

I'm all for jailing or expelling violent extremists of all kinds. It's just that this is a thing we can only do after they exposed themselves. If we don't want that shit to continue, we have to prevent people from developing that kind of violent extremism. And that is nothing a mindless concrete wall can do.

Ooh, come on, you should know by now i'm just messing with you :)

 

Seriously speaking, i might add serious police and intelligence work, before they expose themselves.

And, obviously, solving the problem there. But we already talked about it.

Also, i take refugees, but i would not like to give incentives.

 

Feels like deja vu :)

[IndeedPete 1038]

Well, there are many ways to get into Europe. Well-funded organisations like ISIS will find a way to get people into the EU if they want to. That said, we obviously need to check who's crossing our borders but it's not like extremists carry their ISIS gold membership card with them. But for the people that come here, we need to make sure they follow the law. I don't give a shit when someone doesn't eat pork or wears weird clothes. I give a shit when someone tries to force some belief on me. Be it left or right, Muslim or Christian. I think a lot of these backwards nutjobs, which also harrass their own peaceful countrymen I might add, could be dealt with within existing law. It's just not applied because police forces and courts have been going through severe budget cuts over the last decades. To get back on topic, this guy in Nice was a known and convicted criminal - who was (or has been) on probation. If our authorities for whatever reason - might be too little resources, might be incompetence - fail on this "difficulty level" already, I'm not convinced they can prevent professionally planned and executed attacks.

[IndeedPete 1038]

Feels like deja vu :)

 

Pretty much.^^ I'm sick and tired of this debate. If we don't change the way we do things, we will not get any less incidents and attacks.

[dontknowhow 33]

Okay, this thread really is bringing things already discussed time ago, with the difference that racists then had better arguments. I will add just 2 small things:

 

To get back on topic, this guy in Nice was a known and convicted criminal - who was (or has been) on probation. If our authorities for whatever reason - might be too little resources, might be incompetence - fail on this "difficulty level" already, I'm not convinced they can prevent professionally planned and executed attacks.

I disagree, for the simple reason that many attacks have already been prevented. How many in Germany? 7?

Concerning Nice, the guy is a bit of a weird beast. Apparently he wasn't exactly devout, and he has been radicalized very quickly; I bet that's not easy to find. Yet, as some people say, if the police had checked that truck a bit better...

Also, we can minimize the chance of an attack, but we can never make it zero.

 

I would also like to stress the social aspect of the problem. It's interesting now to see several articles discussing the preference of the terrorists for France, and I often see the social issue raised. There was some time ago a nice video on Vice, also France specific, but I can't find it.

I know it's in (big) part their fault, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

[nodunit 397]

It's very possible that this was a lone wolf acting on their own personal volition, similar to the batman theater shooting.

Of course ISIS is claiming responsibility but ISIS would claim responsibility for my dog dying at this point, they say they do everything.
It's probably just a method to appear to project more power than they actually do.

[zooloo75 834]

It's very possible that this was a lone wolf acting on their own personal volition, similar to the batman theater shooting.

Of course ISIS is claiming responsibility but ISIS would claim responsibility for my dog dying at this point, they say they do everything.

It's probably just a method to appear to project more power than they actually do.

 

That's what I've noticed, too. After every major terror attack, you see ISIS claiming responsibility. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, and as you said, are just claiming the attack to appear stronger than they really are. They're probably condoning the attack, but not directly responsible as people may think. Trolls if anything if that were true.

[ProfTournesol 956]

 

May they rest in peace.

[oxmox 73]

Another IS Terror Attack ? wtf..Iam speechless how many attacks are happening in these days. Just today in Japan...also with a knife.

 

France church attack:

Men 'slit 92-year-old priest's throat' after taking hostages at Normandy church

 

 

A priest has been killed at a church in northern France during a suspected Islamist terror attack by men armed with knives.

The French interior ministry said the murdered man was among hostages taken on Tuesday morning, while a second hostage was in a life-threatening condition.

 

The 92-year-old priest, who had served the local area for decades, reportedly had his throat slit by the attackers.

Police said officers"neutralised" both attackers an operation near Rouen, Normandy, on Tuesday morning and a terror investigation has been launched.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-normandy-church-knife-attack-latest-updates-priest-hostages-killed-injured-attackers-shot-a7156221.html

[ProfTournesol 956]

F** hell.

[Wiki 1558]

2 muslims have assaulted a catholic church, taken hostages, killed the priest by slicing his throat and did the same to another man (still struggling between life and death).

 

Then, they've been smoked out by the BRI while charging screaming allah akbar.

 

They pledged allegiance to isis.

One of them tried to go to jihad last year.