Firing from Vehicles feedback

[bad benson 1733]

the technology is quite simple, the body behaves exactly like in regular animations, using regular animations config which basically means that what is turning around is what is being masked with aiming and aimingBody masks. To rotate whole posture, just change the mask to fullbody one (i have created such long time ago, its there in anims config).

glad to hear that. that is exactly what i was hoping for. this at least allows an "ugly" modded solution, if the feature ends up staying how it is now.

Just be aware of some limitations: the fire geometry doesnt work inside your own vehicle, massive glitching of anims will occur etc.

i hope point number one was not the reason to limit the angles and somehow "hide" that fact. while shooting your vehicle and its passenger would be "fun", it would be only useful in certain situations. and there's always the justification to limit friendly fire :p

if point number two is limited to awkward poses and doesn't mean that the anim system overall would glitch out ("the thing"-like visuals) then i can certainly live with that. sometimes weird looks are the lesser evil :D

[Sniperwolf572 758]

About W,S,A,D - would allow to switch animation state where possible and thus change the rotation angles of the "turret". Like if you want to aim backwards on the offroad , press S and you will interpolate to an animation with new angles to cover etc. Lots of work (weeks of animating properly) but most feasible within current engine limits.

This sounds like an improvement to the current system. Would it be possible to do the same, but in a way that when you hit the limit of one rotation angle, to switch to a new state which takes a new set of angles, thus making this smoother than WASD?

At this moment, me and BB are looking into a scripted solution to both normal and personTurrets animations that follow your rotation. Maybe that will convince the "higher ups" to greenlight the improvement in the anims system which is sorely needed for multiple features.

To be honest, I preordered the DLC bundle, and I'd still wait additional months if necessary just so we can have a feature that's not being bogged down by animation system limits and not done to 80% of it's capacity.

I mean, I'm not sure if this made any good ammo in agruments for improving the anim system, but I hope it did. Maybe next proof of concept will do the same.

[bad benson 1733]

@Smookie: i'm afraid that changing the aiming mask is not a solution. i just tested it and it actually behaves exactly like i expected. the result is the whole body following the rifle even when aiming up and down which looks just as bad as having the spine be twisted 360.

i will still keep testing but it seems like the FFV system just takes "aiming" as the aiming mask and "aimingBody" as the part that is glued to the vehicle without being able to rotate horizontally. this is exactly what i was afraid of. i really hope i'm jsut being a noob again and will double tripple check.

if i'm right however i sincerely hope that the current set up will be reconsidered to allow it being more moddable. we basically need a middleground. instead of aiming with the whole body or having the lower body glued in place we need aiming with the upper body and side to side rotation with the lower body. just like when standing on the ground. hence my comparison to a two part tank turret. right now the lower body is the tank itself. it should be the turret hub instead and the car (vehicle) should be the tank. if that makes any sense :D

[the_demongod 31]

About W,S,A,D - would allow to switch animation state where possible and thus change the rotation angles of the "turret". Like if you want to aim backwards on the offroad , press S and you will interpolate to an animation with new angles to cover etc. Lots of work (weeks of animating properly) but most feasible within current engine limits.

How about instead of WASD, we use stance adjust? It would be more intuitive, we are already used to using Ctrl+W to stand up higher and Ctrl+S to stand lower, so why not use them to sit higher or lower in the back of a truck? And similarly you could use Ctrl+A/D to rotate your limited field of view.

It would also work for a passenger shooting out of a car window. Say the default position is facing forward, shooting through the windshield. Ctrl+D would swivel the body to face out the window, Ctrl+W would cause the player to put his arms out the window and point the gun to the front of the vehicle, and Ctrl+S would cause the player to awkwardly turn around to point the gun out the window, but to the rear of the vehicle. Of course these unstable/extended positions (such as arms out the window) would result in lowered accuracy, etc.

[rtek 10]

Had the AI fly me in the MH-9 Hummingbird while I shot at unarmed AI down below. My character started shaking like crazy. It was like that he was injured or something. Anyone else experience this? Never got shot, because all the AI were unarmed.

edit:

I've been able to reproduce this bug nearly 100% of the times I've tried it.

In editor, I place down an AI controlled MH-9 Hummingbird. I place down 1 rifleman in command of the AI in the MH-9. I start up the mission.

I get into the MH-9 on the bench, either side. I tell the pilot to fly to the other side of the island.

Once the heli gets to a good speed, I look towards the very front of the heli, and either unload a full magazine of ammo, or(happens every time) I throw a grenade, smoke or whatever.

The camera will begin to shake nonstop.

I just tested this while facing the absolute rear of the helicopter and the camera shake happened after unloading a full magazine.

Edited September 24, 2014 by RTEK

[roshnak 41]

How about instead of WASD, we use stance adjust? It would be more intuitive, we are already used to using Ctrl+W to stand up higher and Ctrl+S to stand lower, so why not use them to sit higher or lower in the back of a truck? And similarly you could use Ctrl+A/D to rotate your limited field of view.

It would also work for a passenger shooting out of a car window. Say the default position is facing forward, shooting through the windshield. Ctrl+D would swivel the body to face out the window, Ctrl+W would cause the player to put his arms out the window and point the gun to the front of the vehicle, and Ctrl+S would cause the player to awkwardly turn around to point the gun out the window, but to the rear of the vehicle. Of course these unstable/extended positions (such as arms out the window) would result in lowered accuracy, etc.

I don't see how it would be at all more intuitive to have to hold an extra key to change position inside a vehicle while WSAD don't do anything. Why not have D swivel the body to face out the window and W cause the player to put his arms out the window and point straight ahead? Why add an unnecessary modifier key?

[Bouben 3]

FFV solution?

If you look at this video,

, you can see that units does not have any special pose when on the board of the vehicle (boat). They simply crouch there and therefore can turn around 360 degrees without any animation glitching. Why don't we just get rid of those special sitting stances in vehicles in Arma and let AI rotate around freely in an universal crouched position? It would not look so good as having custom animations but it would work.

Or maybe the universal crouched position could be triggered only when needed (under fire, danger...)?

It seems to me as a more simple solution than what you guys propose. But my knowledge about animations is very limited, so don't be surprised if I said something stupid.

[tortuosit 485]

Had the AI fly me in the MH-9 Hummingbird while I shot at unarmed AI down below. My character started shaking like crazy.

Will be fixed. http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?183549-Firing-from-Vehicles-feedback&p=2781004&viewfull=1#post2781004

[kilroy the nerd 14]

Is it just me or is the ability to look left on right Hellcat bench too short? I can't look any further than the rocket pod, which is a real shame.

[machineabuse 11]

FFV solution?

If you look at this video,

, you can see that units does not have any special pose when on the board of the vehicle (boat). They simply crouch there and therefore can turn around 360 degrees without any animation glitching. Why don't we just get rid of those special sitting stances in vehicles in Arma and let AI rotate around freely in an universal crouched position? It would not look so good as having custom animations but it would work.

Or maybe the universal crouched position could be triggered only when needed (under fire, danger...)?

It seems to me as a more simple solution than what you guys propose. But my knowledge about animations is very limited, so don't be surprised if I said something stupid.

This would be a wonderful provision to have especially for modders. It would be pretty sweet that if using such a position it would be possible to fall out of the vehicle if it maneuvered too violently to distinguish it from a "secure" firing position.

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Please, please don't make this another freaking chopper door minigun situation. Let me use my goddamn TrackIR. I spent a pretty penny on the system and you guys have stated that the game supports the tech. Please stop making things that don't properly support trackIR. Turrets can obviously make use of TrackIR, but they tend not to in ArmA 3 content. Please don't let this become another point that I can't use my TrackIR. Especially if you're going to limit my point of aim so much.

[enex 11]

Please, please don't make this another freaking chopper door minigun situation. Let me use my goddamn TrackIR. I spent a pretty penny on the system and you guys have stated that the game supports the tech. Please stop making things that don't properly support trackIR. Turrets can obviously make use of TrackIR, but they tend not to in ArmA 3 content. Please don't let this become another point that I can't use my TrackIR. Especially if you're going to limit my point of aim so much.

Klamacz said on page 3 that is gonna to be fixed.

[graemeshute 218]

For those searching on how to enable firing from vehicles here we go. I tested it with a MH 9 Humminbird. I assume it will work on other vehicles:)

MH 9 Hummingbird named it: helo1

NATO Autorifleman: troop1

troop1 enablePersonTurret [2,enable]; troop1 moveInCargo [helo1, 2];

result: Right front of bench

NATO Autorifleman: troop2

troop2 enablePersonTurret [3,enable]; troop2 moveInCargo [helo1, 3];

result: Left back of bench

NATO Autorifleman: troop3

troop3 enablePersonTurret [4,enable]; troop3 moveInCargo [helo1, 4];

result: Left front of bench

NATO Autorifleman: troop4

troop4 enablePersonTurret [1,enable]; troop4 moveInCargo [helo1, 1];

result: Inside right seat of MH 9 Hummingbird

NATO Autorifleman: troop5

Troop5 enablePersonTurret [0,enable]; troop5 moveInCargo [helo1, 0];

result: Inside left seat of MH 9 Hummingbird

NATO Autorifleman: troop6

Troop6 enablePersonTurret [5,enable]; troop6 moveInCargo [helo1, 5];

result: Inside left seat of MH 9 Hummingbird

result: Right back of bench

[Bouben 3]

This would be a wonderful provision to have especially for modders. It would be pretty sweet that if using such a position it would be possible to fall out of the vehicle if it maneuvered too violently to distinguish it from a "secure" firing position.

No. What I proposed was a solution with intention to make things easier to do. What you propose is completely the opposite. :D

[Tonci87 163]

Yep, that's it. I'd just love it if BI could dig in and make this feature more complete than it currently is in regards to animations and limits. It's getting silly how often we hear about features being halfway done due to the exact same reasoning as Smookie gave us, now to the point that I'm imagining that the following scene is very common over there:

http://i.imgur.com/3UUP5zb.jpg

Anyway, yeah, that could literally fix things like these (left side gunner, also happens for the right side gunner) by doing the right thing, instead of just arbitrarily limiting angles because "that looks bad, so we'll just limit the feature":

http://i.imgur.com/InS2rJIs.jpg

Just imagine that guy actually dropping his legs in all the room in the boat and turning for a much more sensible and stable firing position or the guys that are sitting to actually shuffle around a bit to provide cover to the right instead of being hard locked to the left.

Serious LOL :D !

There are multiple problems with implementing the crazy idea of keyframes etc... This solution seems to be flawed to me and really not worth an effort considering ammount of resources required (please note we dont have gesture based weapon switching supported by engine etc.etc.). Again, dynamic blending [i use it in our upcoming RTS game and it works simply perfect and looks epic since 360o is covered with 8 anims] of several animation states should be a go here but the engine does not support such thing in the present. It might be possible in next iterations if there is some attention given to it (this would unlock extreme possibilities of improving the looks of anims in general). This is unfortunately not up to me but try prodding the men higher up and see what can be done :)

BadBenson - the technology is quite simple, the body behaves exactly like in regular animations, using regular animations config which basically means that what is turning around is what is being masked with aiming and aimingBody masks. To rotate whole posture, just change the mask to fullbody one (i have created such long time ago, its there in anims config). You can tweak the rotation scope through config settings (PersonTurret) for each position to ridiculous values so that you will be able to rotate 360 at all times. Just be aware of some limitations: the fire geometry doesnt work inside your own vehicle, massive glitching of anims will occur etc.

About W,S,A,D - would allow to switch animation state where possible and thus change the rotation angles of the "turret". Like if you want to aim backwards on the offroad , press S and you will interpolate to an animation with new angles to cover etc. Lots of work (weeks of animating properly) but most feasible within current engine limits.

In my opinion the aiming restrictions are too restrictive and should only apply when your rifle collides with either the vehicel or some guy next to you, everything else should be ok to shoot. If you can make this possible, please do so, it doesn´t really matter how. Please enable shooting for all guys on the uncovered transport trucks. They really should be able to turn around on their bench and shoot outwards.

[bad benson 1733]

FFV solution?

If you look at this video,

, you can see that units does not have any special pose when on the board of the vehicle (boat). They simply crouch there and therefore can turn around 360 degrees without any animation glitching. Why don't we just get rid of those special sitting stances in vehicles in Arma and let AI rotate around freely in an universal crouched position? It would not look so good as having custom animations but it would work.

Or maybe the universal crouched position could be triggered only when needed (under fire, danger...)?

It seems to me as a more simple solution than what you guys propose. But my knowledge about animations is very limited, so don't be surprised if I said something stupid.

not stupid at all. this is exactly what is needed. the animation itself is not the crucial part here. that can be changed via config and also on the fly via scripting. the crucial part is the rotation of the whole body. this would essentially open up endless possibilities.

try it yourself in the editor. go into one of the offroad's cargo shooting positions. press ESC and type this in the debug console: player switchMove ""

this will switch to the default rifle standing animation. you will notice that, while advanced stances don't work, that you can even go crouch and prone. this would be an amazing possibility if it wasn't for how the lower body is behaving.

you could essentially as a modder make your own little action set for each cargo seat of your own or a vanilla vehicle. meaning. instead of what you get when you do what i said in the editor you could have custom anims for crouch stand and prone that fit the cargo position you are in. so instead of going prone and clipping through the vehicle you could duck really low appropriately for where you are in the vehicle. this is much more intuitive than having to unlock certain angles via WASD. you simply would be have like outside of a evhcile minus moving around.

we simply need more control over the aiming masks via config parameters. there needs to be a switch for the lower body being set in place. so that it can stay how it is for the littlebird but can be changed for other vehicles.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Bad Benson

[Bouben 3]

not stupid at all. this is exactly what is needed. the animation itself is not the crucial part here. that can be changed via config and also on the fly via scripting. the crucial part is the rotation of the whole body. this would essentially open up endless possibilities.

try it yourself in the editor. go into one of the offroad's cargo shooting positions. press ESC and type this in the debug console: player switchMove ""

this will switch to the default rifle standing animation. you will notice that, while advanced stances don't work, that you can even go crouch and prone. this would be an amazing possibility if it wasn't for how the lower body is behaving.

you could essentially as a modder make your own little action set for each cargo seat of your own or a vanilla vehicle. meaning. instead of what you get when you do what i said in the editor you could have custom anims for crouch stand and prone that fit the cargo position you are in. so instead of going prone and clipping through the vehicle you could duck really low appropriately for where you are in the vehicle. this is much more intuitive than having to unlock certain angles via WASD. you simply would be have like outside of a evhcile minus moving around.

we simply need more control over the aiming masks via config parameters. there needs to be a switch for the lower body being set in place. so that it can stay how it is for the littlebird but can be changed for other vehicles.

That sounds very nice. Thank you for explanation.

[Groove_C 267]

[machineabuse 11]

No. What I proposed was a solution with intention to make things easier to do. What you propose is completely the opposite. :D

I know ;) I'm a big fan of security vs convenience when it comes to the consequences of one's actions. If you want to kneel in the back of a truck you ought to understand that you can fall out.

That creates more interesting scenarios to happen organically.

[Bouben 3]

I know ;) I'm a big fan of security vs convenience when it comes to the consequences of one's actions. If you want to kneel in the back of a truck you ought to understand that you can fall out.

That creates more interesting scenarios to happen organically.

Yeah but I cannot imagine how much work it would be to do properly.

[roshnak 41]

Yeah but I cannot imagine how much work it would be to do properly.

Given the limitations of the current system, it does seem to be quite a lot to ask.

It also doesn't sound like it would be particularly fun.

[enex 11]

To be honest, I preordered the DLC bundle, and I'd still wait additional months if necessary just so we can have a feature that's not being bogged down by animation system limits and not done to 80% of it's capacity.

I mean, I'm not sure if this made any good ammo in agruments for improving the anim system, but I hope it did. Maybe next proof of concept will do the same.

I find this discussion very interesting and the more I think about, the more FFV seem limiting.I would happily wait additional months to have 100% capacity, I would pay more for it if necessary.

It should work on the principle of little bird.You have no limitation, no obstruction, and it feels 100%.That's how it should be in vehicles (which are higher difficulty level to implement purely because

of obstructions and different player positions).Maybe it should be enabled just for little bird while dynamic blending integration would take place...If we convince James Crowe that we want limitless feature.(isn't he Project lead?)

Edited September 24, 2014 by enex

[roshnak 41]

Why not take the thing that we have now and then also take additional improvements in a few months?

Also, if you want this to not be bogged down by the animation system, you're going to be waiting a long time. Like, probably not in this game and maybe not ever long.

[bad benson 1733]

Why not take the thing that we have now and then also take additional improvements in a few months?

Also, if you want this to not be bogged down by the animation system, you're going to be waiting a long time. Like, probably not in this game and maybe not ever long.

that is exactly why i suggested slighty changing the way the lower body behaves or at least adding more control parameters to change it. that will help the devs too to give each individual seat the needed love. right now it seems that anything that goes beyond the littlebird bench seats in terms of FOV will be limited by exactly that FOV which is 180°.

Smookie didn't sound like what he had in mind might really happen. so i'd rather push for a small change, that allows endless modding, at this early stage while this is still on the list of things being worked on. i will show a demo video of exactly what the problem is soon.

no offense but BI have a history of just implementing things and never touching them again. and in addition making things not modular enough. this could become yet another case of huge waste of potential. i'm not trying to sound ungrateful since it's the best new feature since ages. i just think that now is the time for being vocal. who knows? maybe someone at BI will say "fuck these guys, we're gonna show them" and push this further, if we are annoying enough.

[machineabuse 11]

Yeah but I cannot imagine how much work it would be to do properly.

If Force exceeds X = animate ragdoll. Also, falling out of the vehicle might actually save your life in some cases.