Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[alsanjuro 20]

If we have sway and inertia and yet when you shoot from hip the sway and inertia arent affected by this as much when shooting. Since the introduction majority of people shoot from the hip these days and in my opinion should be a lot harder to control and put accurate shoots onto the target.

We are told that now weapons have different weight and its harder to aim and use heavier weapons like LMG's and yet you can aim as quickly down the sight as you would with a submachine gun. So we are still waiting for tweaks and prob wont see them cause Bohemia is busy.

Since I play ARMA 3 in first person it makes it a nauseating experience as i if am floating on water and i have resorted to using mods.

Make the heavy weapons feel heavy and not just give us more of the bouncing effect. Perfect example is seen in their new video in at 2.38sec you see someone trying to shoot a target 5m away and when they fire they shoot everything around the target but the target.

In regards to this topic there is always gonna be two sides. Its interesting if they gave people a choice to use this exaggerated mechanic or not which one do you think would be used. Imagine if they have forced the flight model onto people what do you think their reaction would be. I dont have a problem with having to sway and inertia in the game it needs adjusting and am gonna repeat this since its been months without a word from devs.

For people that keep coming up and saying this is a not a game you need to get a life because it is a game.

On every turn as soon as i say that i dislike the way this has been implement into the game i get attacked and trolled and yet some of the same people that troll and attack others come forward and say keep it civilized.

I want to know what is been done about this.

[Variable 322]

I can be defined as a hardcore pro-realism fan and I'm against the current implementation of the sway because it's unrealistic, feels fake and artificial and has nothing to do with how weapons are handled in real life.

Don't use realism to defend this implementation, because that just shows that you don't know how this stuff works in real life.

[gibonez 18]

If we have sway and inertia and yet when you shoot from hip the sway and inertia arent affected by this as much when shooting. Since the introduction majority of people shoot from the hip these days and in my opinion should be a lot harder to control and put accurate shoots onto the target.

Mandatory but minimal forced free aim would go around solving this.

It works wonders in Insurgency and Red Orchestra 2.

[roshnak 41]

I can be defined as a hardcore pro-realism fan and I'm against the current implementation of the sway because it's unrealistic, feels fake and artificial and has nothing to do with how weapons are handled in real life.

Don't use realism to defend this implementation, because that just shows that you don't know how this stuff works in real life.

Video games are not real life and there is currently no way to accurately recreate the experience of aiming and shooting a firearm in a video game. I don't see how arguing about the realism of those aspects is very helpful to either side.

Mandatory but minimal forced free aim would go around solving this.

It works wonders in Insurgency and Red Orchestra 2.

Those games don't support TrackIR, and freeaim with TrackIR can be a bit disorienting.

Edited January 24, 2015 by roshnak

[Defunkt 431]

I like the system and the effect it has on gameplay.

The only change I would like is to see is better representation of the difference between longarms and handguns. With a longarm the largest portion of sway should be represented in the screen moving (and only a very small amount of movement in the weapon model within that) because of 'cheek-weld'. Handguns would have a smaller amount of that but continue to show most movement in the weapon model. I think this would significantly improve the feel of the system.

[vegeta897 13]

I like the system and the effect it has on gameplay.

The only change I would like is to see is better representation of the difference between longarms and handguns. With a longarm the largest portion of sway should be represented in the screen moving (and only a very small amount of movement in the weapon model within that) because of 'cheek-weld'. Handguns would have a smaller amount of that but continue to show most movement in the weapon model. I think this would significantly improve the feel of the system.

I like this idea in theory, but I wonder if moving the entire screen might be a bit nauseating and make the sway feel even more pronounced.

[twisted 128]

Good point in the lack of inertia in the weapon while not zoomed in. I'd like to see that brought into line with the actual inertia when zoomed. And also agree that the system needs more refining but the game play consequences are definitely in the right direction.

Edited January 25, 2015 by twisted
Fixed autocorrect text.

[das attorney 858]

Would prefer if the fulcrum was at the shoulder as it should be.

[Defunkt 431]

I like this idea in theory, but I wonder if moving the entire screen might be a bit nauseating and make the sway feel even more pronounced.

Well it's already the case with 2D scope views that the entire screen sways so I wouldn't anticipate any problem (that may or may not already exist for some people).

Good point in the lack of inertia in the weapon while bit zoomed in. I'd like to see that brought into line with the actual inertia when zoomed.

Surely this is only really an issue if the server permits crosshairs.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Defunkt

[haleks 8212]

I like this idea in theory, but I wonder if moving the entire screen might be a bit nauseating and make the sway feel even more pronounced.

I think it was working this way in Arma2? Never had any problem with it.

[faire 10]

How much of this toppic have you really read? This argument has been disputed here MANY times.

[bigpickle 0]

I really want to see video from one person claiming it's unrealistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8UmBXFgMI

Video games are not real life and there is currently no way to accurately recreate the experience of aiming and shooting a firearm in a video game. I don't see how arguing about the realism of those aspects is very helpful to either side.

This is exactly what the people FOR a feature say....This is exactly what the people AGAINST say.

I say Bis should try harderR to recreate accurate impementation, if other games can do it better there is no reason why the talented devs at Bis cant.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Bigpickle

[Defunkt 431]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8UmBXFgMI

I think I've spotted your issue, you're trying to play the game with time acceleration set to 4x.

Try setting it back to 1x and I think you'll find it a lot easier to hit things.

You're welcome.

[roshnak 41]

This is exactly what the people FOR a feature say....This is exactly what the people AGAINST say.

Hence the part of my post that says that it's not a very helpful argument to have.

Edit: Asked this in the fatigue thread, but it probably belongs here.

Weapon sway is the one thing that unanimously everyone I speak to says is the reason they dont play Arma 3, I used to be part of several big groups that played arma series over the last 10 years, sadly when arma 3 came out no one wanted to play because of the weapon sway and some of the groups eventaully dwindle because of the lack of players. :(

Why didn't the people that you're talking about want to play Arma 3 for the year that it was out when it had Arma 2's weapon sway mechanics?

Edited January 27, 2015 by roshnak

[chortles 263]

I say Bis should try harderR to recreate accurate impementation, if other games can do it better there is no reason why the talented devs at Bis cant.

The devblog on weapon inertia admitted that 1:1 fidelity wasn't their goal...

[Tsark 12]

If we have sway and inertia and yet when you shoot from hip the sway and inertia arent affected by this as much when shooting. Since the introduction majority of people shoot from the hip these days and in my opinion should be a lot harder to control and put accurate shoots onto the target.

Your character never fires from the hip in Arma3. Unless you press 2x ctrl, your weapon is always shouldered in Arma. I do agree with you though that having two different inertia levels between the two states: Weapon shouldered, looking through sights and Weapon shouldered, not looking through sights doesn' t make sense.

We are told that now weapons have different weight and its harder to aim and use heavier weapons like LMG's and yet you can aim as quickly down the sight as you would with a submachine gun. So we are still waiting for tweaks and prob wont see them cause Bohemia is busy.

Once again, since the weapon is up and shouldered in both cases, the difference in time between this action on and smg and on an lmg shouldn' t be much. I fully agree with you though that bringing up a machine gun from a low ready postition should be slower than bringing up an MP5, which is why i' m gonna quote my suggestion from post 589:

The default "combat" stance (as opposed to the relaxed 2x ctrl one) should be some kind of a low ready position, instead of the weapon up, and that wether you' re stopped, walking slowly, or at tactical jog speed. At any time, when stopped or moving at one of those speeds pressing c or left click once should make you very quickly raise your weapon, since the stock would already be placed against your shoulder, and most important, it shouldn' t make you stop/ slow down / accelerate/ move forward without being able to stop...etc as it is the case today with 2x ctrl, the transition should be as fluid as it come. Pressing c again would make you return to the low ready position, once again without stops...etc

...

It would also have the added bonus of avoiding to have everyone running around with their weapons constantly up, flagging their teamates and looking ridiculous.

I forgot to mention at the time that of course left click when in low ready should bring the weapon up, same as c and right click when in low ready should immediately bring sights up.

To sum it up with what i proposed people would have been encouraged to keep their weapons in a would be low ready position most of the time, and the transition from the low ready to the high ready position would be swifter with an smg than with an lmg for example.

Mandatory but minimal forced free aim would go around solving this.

It works wonders in Insurgency and Red Orchestra 2.

I beg to disagree. I think that free aim makes very close range unsighted shooting overly difficult: A prime example of that is when in Insurgency i stumble upon an ennemy' s back, from sometimes less than one meter away, obviously think that i don' t need sights at such a short distance, start firing only for him to realize that i' m there, turn around and kill me after i emptied half a mag in the wall next to the ennemy. IRL, anybody can hit a human torso 1meter away from him with the first shot, shooting with the weapon shouldered without looking through sights or even from the hip. Free aim just doesnt feel natural and instinctive.

Not to mention that i' m also a TrackIR user which would probably only make the matter worse for Arma.

he only change I would like is to see is better representation of the difference between longarms and handguns. With a longarm the largest portion of sway should be represented in the screen moving (and only a very small amount of movement in the weapon model within that) because of 'cheek-weld'. Handguns would have a smaller amount of that but continue to show most movement in the weapon model. I think this would significantly improve the feel of the system.

Sounds like a good idea.

Surely this is only really an issue if the server permits crosshairs.

True, the guys i play with and i never play with crosshairs so it never really came across as a striking issue, it' s just..Weird? Since the weapon is in the same position in both states it should handle the same theorically.

[mjolnir66 48]

*snip vid*

.

That is for standing. I have literally just come off a range. I wish my point of aim was anything like that steady.

[froggyluv 2136]

Personally don't mind compensating for the sway as the alternative of 'just too easy' makes me want to shelve the game stronger than a contrived mechanic. That said what is the alternative? Maybe a tougher fov or stronger caustics? Aiming in Insurgency seems harder even without sway as you can just 'feel the space' between you and an opponent outside of 75m where as Arma (without mechanics) it's pretty much mouse over pixel is too easy a hit.

[Greenfist 1863]

That is for standing. I have literally just come off a range. I wish my point of aim was anything like that steady.

And you probably didn't even run before shooting!

This is me shooting standing up after running for 4 minutes (840 meters). The fatigue is at 0.65 (and locked there), which is right above the point where you start to slow down significantly and the vignette effect kicks in.

I don't have much trouble hitting targets 460 meters away.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Greenfist

[dnk 13]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8UmBXFgMI

That is for standing. I have literally just come off a range. I wish my point of aim was anything like that steady.

First, what Mjolnir said.

Second, you fail at reading comprehension.

Third, what is that in your video, a whole 1 or 2 degrees of sway?

Fourth, maybe 1x time and actually try to steady the aim and it wouldn't look half that bad, literally.

Yeah, if I wasn't actively trying to steady my aim, I'd be lucky to hit groupings that tight while standing.

[-Coulum- 35]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8UmBXFgMI

For Bigpickle + others against sway.

Look! When I do absolutely nothing to control my weapon it doesn't stay on target! When I speed it up and play funky music it looks ridiculous!

Not to be rude, but that is how I interpreted you video.

Sway may not be that 1:1 realism some are looking for, but it does add realism in that you have to actually do things well if you want to line up good shots. Those "things" have very little in common with actual shooting practices... I cannot disagree there. But it does make for more realistic results and accuracy criteria - the amount of time, effort and skill needed to line up a shot is closer to that of reality.

And that is what most "pro sway" guys are saying. The same goes for inertia. Its not exactly what you see/feel in real life, but it does introduce more realistic limitations, pros and cons to each of the weapons. It makes gameplay more realistic - prevents sniper rifles being effective close quarters weapons, or me doing insta 360 headshots while prone.

But nothing is perfect. What I am interested to hear are ideas on how to keep that realistic challenge but make things also feel and look better as well. Some people have total overhauls that they feel would represent reality perfectly while keeping the realistic challenge - I do too - but really it is dumb to expect BI just to scrap all the work they have done on sway and inertia and start over new. So instead, what additions or modifications to the current sway system can be done to make the game better?

I think that is better way to focus our energy rather than the "sway sucks doesn't look real - well no sway sucks doesn't play real" loop that this thread continues to repeat and repeat. We on the same page? Chapter?

I say Bis should try harderR to recreate accurate impementation, if other games can do it better there is no reason why the talented devs at Bis cant.

So, keeping what I said above in mind, what can the devs do?

Personally I think this is a absolutely fantastic idea, and let me explain why:

The only change I would like is to see is better representation of the difference between longarms and handguns. With a longarm the largest portion of sway should be represented in the screen moving (and only a very small amount of movement in the weapon model within that) because of 'cheek-weld'. Handguns would have a smaller amount of that but continue to show most movement in the weapon model. I think this would significantly improve the feel of the system.

It has been suggested before, but the more I think about it the more I think this is one of the best ideas I have read in this entire thread (and I've probably kept up with 95% of the thread). It would make sway look less exaggerated/gimmicky and more connected and in-sync to the player. Same sway and challenge, but more believable, realistic look and feel.

And it is more realistic. Think about it: when you shoot in reality, ideally you keep your reticule/front post in focus, in the centre of your view. Why should this be any different than in game? Can you imagine how weird it would be trying to hit targets without looking dead centre at the sights? This is how things are modelled ingame. And its the main reason that it looks like your character is waving his weapon around infront of his face.

Most games have the whole screen sway instead of just the weapon already. Anyone who plays with

can attest that aiming with optics feels much more real. I think this one change could do wonders. I really hope we can bring it to BI''s attention. I encourage you - give TMR optics (just the optics and mandatory pbos) a swing to determine it its really the sway, or the fucked up eye alignment that is the problem... Edited January 28, 2015 by -Coulum-

[Variable 322]

Sway may not be that 1:1 realism some are looking for, but it does add realism in that you have to actually do things well if you want to line up good shots. Those "things" have very little in common with actual shooting practices... I cannot disagree there. But it does make for more realistic results and accuracy criteria - the amount of time, effort and skill needed to line up a shot is closer to that of reality.

Regarding the bold part. You shouldn't have to "do things" in order to aim more than you need to run. It's like arguing that running should have us repeatedly press two buttons, one for each leg, to move our character.

I'm not against putting some effort into aiming, but I think that the current implementation is exaggerated and is a false representation of RL weapon handling. As such, it makes aiming harder, but not necessary better.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Only thing about the general sway that feels off is the combat pace sway. But the main reason why they sway is bad in that mode isn't really the actual sway but how the player moves.

If you move with your gun sighted you don't do that bouncy :bounce3: up/down left/right jog but you move smoothly (bit like sliding) so the gun doesn't sway all over the place and your main body remains steady. This needs correction in Arma 3. It isn't that hard to keep weapon steady when you're going with some speed. It's more demanding to go that speed and smoothly and aim but in Arma 3 combat pace weapon up is already very demanding and you get exhausted quickly so this change would be realistic.

[twisted 128]

R You shouldn't have to "do things" in order to aim more than you need to run.

Really? Everyone can pretty much run, dogs can too. But to shoot and hit what you are aiming at takes practise. to shoot well takes even more practise and some skill. what bis has here is much better than the simple line up mouse and then shoot. it needs refining i give you that and i hope to see more of that coming via marksman dlc

[Brisse 78]

Weapon stabilization will solve a lot of the stuff people are complaining about. I think BI has some good stuff for us in the near future.