Advanced Helicopter FDM Feedback

[enex 11]

Ah thanks.This limits should be described in Field manual in game huh?

[aluc4rd 47]

Ah thanks.This limits should be described in Field manual in game huh?

Limits of both new helicopters (Taru and Huron) are in Field Manual, older helis are missing this information - can be added, good point.

[pettka 694]

Ah thanks.This limits should be described in Field manual in game huh?

As Alucard said, or You may use community wiki with the parameter "features" exported from game configuration :icon_twisted:

[armored_sheep 56]

Blackfoot ability to auto-rotate when engine is off fixed in today´s update. I am looking forward to see your feedback on actual VRS settings.

[DancZer 65]

Is it possible that in MP someone use the FDM and someone the normal flight model on the same host/mission?

I'm interested because i like the HC mode, but i don't have joystick and flying with keyboard+mouse. It is really hard to do. Especially because i can't feel the level of the collective, because it is changeable with buttons.

Whats are the differences between normal fight model and FDM in terms of speed, agility, rate of climb?

[roshnak 41]

Is it possible that in MP someone use the FDM and someone the normal flight model on the same host/mission?

Yes.

Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed some stutter or lag for passengers in a helo being piloted by someone with AFM enabled?

[doveman 7]

Is it possible to set a server so that the Advanced Flight Model is allowed but not forced, so that individual players can choose whether to use it or not by adjusting their local settings? It would be nice to allow those who are comfortable using it to do so, without forcing it on those who aren't and making it impossible for them to pilot when necessary.

[pettka 694]

Is it possible to set a server so that the Advanced Flight Model is allowed but not forced, so that individual players can choose whether to use it or not by adjusting their local settings? It would be nice to allow those who are comfortable using it to do so, without forcing it on those who aren't and making it impossible for them to pilot when necessary.

That is actually the default setting :icon_twisted: It is possible to restrict that per mission currently and we are investigating possibilities to restrict AFM only for the whole server based on requests, but standard setting allows player to choose a flight model he is comfortable with :bounce2:

[doveman 7]

That is actually the default setting :icon_twisted: It is possible to restrict that per mission currently and we are investigating possibilities to restrict AFM only for the whole server based on requests, but standard setting allows player to choose a flight model he is comfortable with :bounce2:

That's awesome :jump_clap: Thanks petka :cheers:

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

Thank you for partially removing the helicopter radar functionality. It is a very cheap feature that scenario designers often had to script around ... I mean the ability for pilots to see ALL vehicles on the island depending on view distance.

I find it a bit more balanced now, with some depth in helicopter ability.

Only improvement I could think of now is to allow scripters to edit the helicopter radar ability.

vehicle enableRadar bool

Or even better, differentiation between air radar and ground radar:

vehicle enableRadar [bool,bool];

And going a step further, perhaps tie the radar variable to one of the helicopter damage selections. If a part of the helicopter is damaged, the radar ceases to work.

Just tossing some ideas.

------

Also some feedback from the public servers ...

A lot of the players want the helicopter to be able to see the bearing of incoming missiles, in the relevant quadrant of the compass. I don't want that ability, but that is some feedback from a number of players.

-------

While I'm here, is there an idc for the heli compass/radar? I have not been able to find it.

---------- Post added at 01:34 ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 ----------

Tried on invade and anex to transport marshall with a Huron (I was driver) and we were unable to transport it unless we were out of vehicle.

Which server were you on?

I implemented some time ago Heli Sling ability on most I&A servers, that is not the BIS sling loading however. It is being phased out since 1.34, however I think some communities still like the ability to lift the light APCs (AMV-7,AFV-4,MSE-3).

Edited November 12, 2014 by MDCCLXXVI

[enex 11]

I implemented some time ago Heli Sling ability on most I&A servers, that is not the BIS sling loading however. It is being phased out since 1.34, however I think some communities still like the ability to lift the light APCs (AMV-7,AFV-4,MSE-3).

I will try to find it for you, right now I can tell you it was one of the most populated servers.

UK/EU COOP invade&annex HighFPS|DEDICATED|LowPing

or

Ahoyworld.co.uk EU#1 CO OP dedicated AW invade & annex ahoy

Edited November 13, 2014 by enex

[the_demongod 31]

Thank you for partially removing the helicopter radar functionality. It is a very cheap feature that scenario designers often had to script around ... I mean the ability for pilots to see ALL vehicles on the island depending on view distance.

I find it a bit more balanced now, with some depth in helicopter ability.

Only improvement I could think of now is to allow scripters to edit the helicopter radar ability.

vehicle enableRadar bool

Or even better, differentiation between air radar and ground radar:

vehicle enableRadar [bool,bool];

And going a step further, perhaps tie the radar variable to one of the helicopter damage selections. If a part of the helicopter is damaged, the radar ceases to work.

Just tossing some ideas.

All good ideas. Since we can't expect to have accurate radar simulation in a game like this, we can at least put some realistic restrictions on them.

On top of this, we could also have the radar act a bit more like a radar warning receiver instead of an active radar. Any vehicle that would in real life emit radiation (i.e. has a radar) such as some combat jets, many attack helicopters, and anti-aircraft artillery like the Tigris and Cheetah would show up the way they do now. Other things like pickup trucks and MRAPs wouldn't show up because they don't emit these waves.

And this would be a bit more complex but it would also be nice to see the radars update in the way that they would in real life; give them all the generic radially sweeping pulse-Doppler style radar, and only update the radar where the radar antenna's line of sight is. That would also allow players to narrow the radar's field of travel, so that they could scan a smaller portion of the sky but receive more frequent updates. Locking onto a target would update its position constantly.

Just tossing some ideas too :P

[DancZer 65]

I want to share my helicopter(Robinson r44) experience. This was the first time when i flight with a real helicopter. I was wondering how the wind affect the helicopter during the flight. I was really felt that we are in the air medium and not hanging on something. Sometimes the helicopter rapidly(approx 1s or less) pushed by the wind(not much, just approx 10-20 cm). The vehicle moved and not tilled! I felt that move and i heard the change in rotor rpm and of course the wind. This "move" experience was very scary and impressive too.

After the real fight i tired the new FDM and it was very good! I could reproduce almost every maneuver that we made in real life. But it wasn't the same. The game is missing this "move" thing.

I'm asking now the developers(some of you have fight with a helicopter too). Is is possible to simulate this kind of behavior with RotorLib? Is it hard to implement it? Are you planning this already?

If the simulation is too expensive in the current state of the development, how about adding the effect only? Some camera move+sound effect which happen randomly and more often when the weather is windy?

Edited November 14, 2014 by danczer

[gatordev 215]

I want to share my helicopter(Robinson r44) experience. This was the first time when i flight with a real helicopter. I was wondering how the wind affect the helicopter during the flight. I was really felt that we are in the air medium and not hanging on something. Sometimes the helicopter rapidly(approx 1s or less) pushed by the wind(not much, just approx 10-20 cm). The vehicle moved and not tilled! I felt that move and i heard the change in rotor rpm and of course the wind. This "move" experience was very scary and impressive too.

After the real fight i tired the new FDM and it was very good! I could reproduce almost every maneuver that we made in real life. But it wasn't the same. The game is missing this "move" thing.

I'm asking now the developers(some of you have fight with a helicopter too). Is is possible to simulate this kind of behavior with RotorLib? Is it hard to implement it? Are you planning this already?

If the simulation is too expensive in the current state of the development, how about adding the effect only? Some camera move+sound effect which happen randomly and more often when the weather is windy?

At the end of the day, you have to ask what BIS is trying to simulate. Is it a R44 or is it a military grade aircraft. Yes, the H-6 is a light helo, so it will move more than most, but otherwise, most helos are much heavier. Are they affected by wind? Absolutely, but not to the extent of a R44. Add in Gust Alleviation (which is a normal function of H-60 flight computers, for example) and it makes things even more complicated.

But the above applies to more than just wind/gusts. VRS is not something normally encountered in military aircraft. Should it be modeled? Sure, why not, but the real question should be "how much?"

[metralla 19]

I hate to compare this game to another because they are totally different but if you compare the flight simulator helicopters of DCS with ARMA3 you will understand the problem RotorLib FDM. No need to explain or understand technical details to draw a conclusion. = It simply does not feel right flight control :868:

[twisted 127]

One thing that would add a lot but I don't seem to see is slight head movement in helo based on aircraft movements. Is the natural way people adjust for the motion if the heli.

[DancZer 65]

One thing that would add a lot but I don't seem to see is slight head movement in helo based on aircraft movements. Is the natural way people adjust for the motion if the heli.

I agree, players without TrackIR need this. I would also recommend some head movement in the direction where the helicopter will land during the descend. This would help a lot and we don't have to use the numpad(release of the mouse) or the alt which disable the control of the helicopter(if you use a mouse for the controlling).

[Defunkt 431]

Really enjoying the new helicopter flight model, it feels as though there is more depth, risk and reward, still easy to pick-up but now more difficult to master (but doesn't require you to know enough to fly an actual helicopter). Right on the sweet-spot.

[nodunit 397]

I hate to compare this game to another because they are totally different but if you compare the flight simulator helicopters of DCS with ARMA3 you will understand the problem RotorLib FDM. No need to explain or understand technical details to draw a conclusion. = It simply does not feel right flight control :868:

Are we comparing all rotorwing in DCS or just the KA50?

It's also possible that its not so much the controls as much as the camera and how it relays that feedback, check these two videos and tell me which one feels "better".

here the camera is mostly locked in place, very similar though a tad bit more stiff than what we have

here the camera is a bit more fluid, you can detect even the slightest motion in the aircraft as the head "floats". Edited November 17, 2014 by NodUnit

[metralla 19]

Are we comparing all rotorwing in DCS or just the KA50?

It's also possible that its not so much the controls as much as the camera and how it relays that feedback, check these two videos and tell me which one feels "better".

here the camera is mostly locked in place, very similar though a tad bit more stiff than what we have

here the camera is a bit more fluid, you can detect even the slightest motion in the aircraft as the head "floats".

I think the same, the movement of the camera or the engine if this game cause fluid and run too fast and the feeling of control of the helicopter is lost and it is very difficult to do precision maneuvers.

The movement of the joystick with the movement of the camera is not feeling well or are not in tune and in sync.:outtahere:

Are we comparing all rotorwing in DCS or just the KA50? I mean the feel and control of flight of any helicopter in dcs: UH-1H, MI8, KA50.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Metralla

[blackpixxel 53]

Something about the input delay that I was talking about a few times:

When you lower the simulation speed (setacctime 0.1), it becomes very obvious that the delay is something that is dependent on the simulation speed. Just move your mouse forward, and waaaaaaiiit until the ingame joystick moves. I don't see any reason for this, and I really would like to see the delay removed, since it affects every vehicle at the moment.

[mobile_medic 43]

I fly helicopters with a mouse and keyboard in Arma. I never liked the flight model (at least going back as far as Arma 2) for a number of reasons. throttle management being one of them.

I recently tried the advanced flight model (still with mouse and keyboard), and it does quite a good job of addressing a lot of issues I had with arma's helicopter flight. I quite like it on the whole (even, with a mouse and keyboard). Except for one glaring issue that remains...

The use of throttle on the keyboard. If I use the regular throttle mapping it is still therrible, and not responsive enough. If I map the analog controls to the keyboard (as an experiment) it is better, b/c it is more responsive, but b/c the throttle defaults back to 50% power after releasing a key on the keyboard, it still makes it untenable (particularly with landings, and your heli shooting back up into the air, etc).

If the throttle (with keyboard) could be addressed, that, plus the advanced flight model would *finally* make flying helicopters in Arma an enjoyable and rewarding experience for me with the mouse and keyboard. I reserve my HOTAS for flying helicopters on DCS.

I hate to suggest it, but perhaps a better approach to throttle management for helicopters with a keyboard would be something like bf3 did... Basically, the throttle defaults to zero, and you tap and/or hold a keyboard button to increase throttle. With this, you can get steady level flight relatively easy with your pitch angle and tapping the increase throttle button. And, managing descents is much better as well.

I don't really have a suggestion beyond that, other than throttle issues with keyboard have never been very good in Arma 2 or Arma 3, in my opinion. I would really like to see this addressed. The afm resolved a lot of the issues I had with arma's helicopter flight. The only outstanding issue to me is throttle w/ keyboard. It lacks fine control, and throttle/collective management is pretty dang important in helicopter flight.

[doveman 7]

Perhaps scroll wheel+Ctrl (or some other key) would work well for throttle?

[mobile_medic 43]

Perhaps scroll wheel+Ctrl (or some other key) would work well for throttle?

I considered that, and did briefly try it, but it didn't seem to work well. Plus, it is occupied by menu interaction atm.

I do have a thumb wheel on my rat 7. I could try it with the analog controls I suppose. I'd prefer if they simply fixed/improved keyboard throttle/collective management, though, of course :)

I don't fly with a default mapping, and am quite used to w/s being my throttle. a/d being my roll, and my pitch and yaw being bound to my mouse axes. (as opposed to the default of treating the mouse as though it were a joystick, I prefer the consistency of my mouse behaving as it does when i am on foot... i.e. look up/down, turn left/right, being hte same as pitch up/down, rudder left/right).

Will see if I can get my thumbwheel to work with the analogue throttle and give it an honest try though.

EDIT: Thumbwheel didn't work. Mapping keyboard to analogue throttle as mentioned is a lot more responsive than the normal way, but it still has the issue of being defaulted to half throttle, and then it is either full or off if you increase or decrease. The non-analogue controls for throttle just don't work well at all.

EDIT 2: I could actually get by mapping the analogue throttle controls to my keyboard and using them, but only *if* the default throttle position was something less than what is required for lift off. for example, if no throttle input resulted in a slight descent by default, rather than a pretty strong ascent as it currently does, it might be more manageable. One could hard tap down for even less throttle during maneuvers or quick descents, if needed. And, one could use tapping up to maintain level flight, or increase altitude. The regular keyboard throttle controls are just not responsive enough to me... tapping produces very little change, and holding has a delayed response on key press, and on key release. Analogue helps this, but the default 50% throttle creates its own problems.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Mobile_Medic

[doveman 7]

What I meant was that BI could add a way to use the mousewheel as throttle. I didn't mean that I thought it would already work and you should try it. I guess it won't be that different to tapping the keys, as it's still just a digital/not analog input but maybe if each click was +/- 5% throttle that would be convenient and then tapping the keys could be +/- 1% for when more precise control is needed, like when landing.