Advanced Helicopter FDM Feedback

[SSG-Levi 7]

Probably not suitable for the casual gamer approach BIS has currently on their game plan.

hence the Advanced in AFM.  :)

[ruPal 143]

It would be amazing if they fix it. But as they stated in the past, an advanced damage model is not planned. Which I basicly translate into: The AFM Project is finished and stays as it is. Probably not suitable for the casual gamer approach BIS has currently on their game plan.

 

But what if you make more ground contact points in rotorlib xml file. As I understand the problem with explosion is caused of model collision like when your skids are stuck in texture -> explosion. Hope that the same situation is with that problem. Theoretically, if you add ground contact points on all sides of helicopter it will not stuck into other objects/ground. This points also have hitpoints and maybe destroyed. You will get threshold for collisions and helicopter will not be invulnurable. Hope devs will answer.

[en3x 209]

Let's be careful with putting bandaid on the problem where initial bad engine constraint should be fixed.That is that

upon high speed, geometry (helicopter) shouldn't enter terrain.I'm speculating - low level engine change.

[roshnak 41]

So helicopter flight is appearing jittery for passengers when pilots are using the AFM. Is anyone else experiencing this?

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Why do I lose 6-8 FPS when I enable the AFM?

 

What part of the AFM is using so much CPU?

[Gruman 123]

Same here.

Luckely I play with a group which operates a server where the FPS don't drop below 40 FPS. Otherwise AFM would be not enjoyable...

 

Lower FPS means a longer input lag for the analog inputs...

 

BIS, please finaly refine this feature of Arma 3... It feels so unpolished... :(

[blackpixxel 53]

Even at high FPS the input lag is so huge that hovering is very hard and annoying. In DCS I can hover the helicopters extremely precise, because there is no artificial delay to the control inputs.

 

I wonder if that ever gets fixed? It is not only a problem to AFM, it is a problem with every vehicle in Arma 3. They all have input lag of 250-500ms.  The only vehicle that works free of input delay is the modded F18.

[Gruman 123]

@InputLag

I did some searching, but there is still no feedback on the official tracker, is there?

 

I kinda learned to live with it, but still, no excuse for BIS to let this one slide.

[doveman 7]

I guess it might have been caused by low FPS on the server (I didn't check it at the time but it varies quite a lot depending on the mission) but I played a mission which started with me piloting a chopper that was already airborne and when the mission started it just plunged into the ground. It seemed as if the engine wasn't even on, so I'm wondering if AFM causes that to happen and can only be used when the chopper starts cold on the ground? After switching back to SFM it was fine.

[hon0 10]

Hello.

 

Is there a way to turn off the "FCSRotationDamper" or whatever it is called now?

 

I suffered from the same problem on Take On Helicopters. I would like to enjoy Arma 3 again but it's not possible for me due to this "problem"..

 

Thanks for help,

 

Antoine from France.

[Maxzy 12]

Is there gonna be an AFM for VTOLs?

[oukej 2910]

I am sorry to disappoint you, but there won't be AFM for VTOLs.

[Gruman 123]

Any chance the slight desync between the Pilot and Copilot/Crew/Cargo can be reduced/removed, if the Pilot flies in AFM?

[NightIntruder 710]

I have a couple of questions regarding Arma3's AFM to the Developer that is currently responsible for AFM implementation within Arma3:

 

1) Is there any connection system between parts of GeoLOD / HitPoints LOD of an addon and the RTD class names of XML file? For instance, will it impact helicopter behavior if I lost horizontal stabilizer? How to link right HorizontalStabilizer hit points with "HorizontalStabilizerRight" class of XML ?

 

2) It's possible to read different engines RPMs. It's not possible to switch them on/off independently though (apart from destroying them one by one). Are the engines connected with XML file, by class names or aliases maybe?

 

3) Is there Turbine Engine addon of Rotor Lib - and other RTD addons as well - implemented in the Arma3 ?

 

4) What I am working on is that every time I lost one engine in two-engine helicopter, rotor's RPM drops by half although in real life most of helicopters are capable of continuing the flight with one engine AND maintaing flyable rotor's RPM in the same time. Before Apex, it was possible to define continuesPower, emergPower, takeoffPower for all engines. Now, although ObjectBuilder does allow such class names within XML file but it simply breaks AFM in a helicopter addon. Any chance to have seen it implemented or those classes were useless at current state of RotorLib implementation?

 

5) At this webpage: http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/inputAction/actions are some inputActions listed like "HeliBatteriesToggle" and "HeliRotorBrakeToggle". Is there any use of them at current state of Arma3's AFM? 

 

6) I also saw some time ago TKOH functions within Arma3 game files that were left there but disabled, like rotorBrake, engineStarter, start procedures etc. Was that intentional? Can we expect those functions be activated in nearest future then?

 

My general impression at the moment is that the optional AFM was added to the game, which is great step in right direction because it allows people to use it, or refuse it. But somehow this great addition was implemented partially which ruines the devs efforts in a perspective of people who are not interested in half-measures. I always thought that AFM was not PR project but real efforts to bring something new and ambitious into the game. Well... I hope that I am not wrong and the AFM can still be developed into something "advanced" :)

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

 

I have a couple of questions regarding Arma3's AFM to the Developer that is currently responsible for AFM implementation within Arma3:

 

1) Is there any connection system between parts of GeoLOD / HitPoints LOD of an addon and the RTD class names of XML file? For instance, will it impact helicopter behavior if I lost horizontal stabilizer? How to link right HorizontalStabilizer hit points with "HorizontalStabilizerRight" class of XML ?

 

2) It's possible to read different engines RPMs. It's not possible to switch them on/off independently though (apart from destroying them one by one). Are the engines connected with XML file, by class names or aliases maybe?

 

3) Is there Turbine Engine addon of Rotor Lib - and other RTD addons as well - implemented in the Arma3 ?

 

4) What I am working on is that every time I lost one engine in two-engine helicopter, rotor's RPM drops by half although in real life most of helicopters are capable of continuing the flight with one engine AND maintaing flyable rotor's RPM in the same time. Before Apex, it was possible to define continuesPower, emergPower, takeoffPower for all engines. Now, although ObjectBuilder does allow such class names within XML file but it simply breaks AFM in a helicopter addon. Any chance to have seen it implemented or those classes were useless at current state of RotorLib implementation?

 

5) At this webpage: http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/inputAction/actions are some inputActions listed like "HeliBatteriesToggle" and "HeliRotorBrakeToggle". Is there any use of them at current state of Arma3's AFM? 

 

6) I also saw some time ago TKOH functions within Arma3 game files that were left there but disabled, like rotorBrake, engineStarter, start procedures etc. Was that intentional? Can we expect those functions be activated in nearest future then?

 

My general impression at the moment is that the optional AFM was added to the game, which is great step in right direction because it allows people to use it, or refuse it. But somehow this great addition was implemented partially which ruines the devs efforts in a perspective of people who are not interested in half-measures. I always thought that AFM was not PR project but real efforts to bring something new and ambitious into the game. Well... I hope that I am not wrong and the AFM can still be developed into something "advanced" :)

 

 

there are plenty of helicopter flight model functions

 

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Category:Scripting_Commands

 

most from TKOH but many are also in ArmA now.

 

search that page for RTD

[dr. hladik 231]

 

I have a couple of questions regarding Arma3's AFM to the Developer that is currently responsible for AFM implementation within Arma3:

 

1) Is there any connection system between parts of GeoLOD / HitPoints LOD of an addon and the RTD class names of XML file? For instance, will it impact helicopter behavior if I lost horizontal stabilizer? How to link right HorizontalStabilizer hit points with "HorizontalStabilizerRight" class of XML ?

 

2) It's possible to read different engines RPMs. It's not possible to switch them on/off independently though (apart from destroying them one by one). Are the engines connected with XML file, by class names or aliases maybe?

 

3) Is there Turbine Engine addon of Rotor Lib - and other RTD addons as well - implemented in the Arma3 ?

 

4) What I am working on is that every time I lost one engine in two-engine helicopter, rotor's RPM drops by half although in real life most of helicopters are capable of continuing the flight with one engine AND maintaing flyable rotor's RPM in the same time. Before Apex, it was possible to define continuesPower, emergPower, takeoffPower for all engines. Now, although ObjectBuilder does allow such class names within XML file but it simply breaks AFM in a helicopter addon. Any chance to have seen it implemented or those classes were useless at current state of RotorLib implementation?

 

5) At this webpage: http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/inputAction/actions are some inputActions listed like "HeliBatteriesToggle" and "HeliRotorBrakeToggle". Is there any use of them at current state of Arma3's AFM? 

 

6) I also saw some time ago TKOH functions within Arma3 game files that were left there but disabled, like rotorBrake, engineStarter, start procedures etc. Was that intentional? Can we expect those functions be activated in nearest future then?

 

My general impression at the moment is that the optional AFM was added to the game, which is great step in right direction because it allows people to use it, or refuse it. But somehow this great addition was implemented partially which ruines the devs efforts in a perspective of people who are not interested in half-measures. I always thought that AFM was not PR project but real efforts to bring something new and ambitious into the game. Well... I hope that I am not wrong and the AFM can still be developed into something "advanced" :)

 

 

1) It is based on stabilizer position. HitHStabilizerL1 will affect stabilizers on the left side of helicopter

 

2) Engine type="ConstantRPMEngine">. ConstantRPMEngineis a class name from RTD

 

3) We are supporting only  RTD::ConstantRPMEngine

 

4) Weird, there were no changes in RTD for APEX.

 

5,6) No. Those existed only for TKOH. It would be very inconsistent with other vehicles to have this still enabled. And we do not plan to re-enable them. Sorry.

[NightIntruder 710]

 

Thank you for you reply dr.Hladik. That's actually very interesting what you wrote, so please forgive me my following questions:

 

1) It is based on stabilizer position. HitHStabilizerL1 will affect stabilizers on the left side of helicopter

 

So, I guess the HitPoints that can be found in sample A3 heli model are the only one that are linked with XML file through the game engine? Thus, there's no chance to lose ie. left landing gear and by that losing left GroundContact, right? There's no chance to have gearbox or drive shaft damaged that impacts on AFM behaviour, right?

 

2) Engine type="ConstantRPMEngine">. ConstantRPMEngineis a class name from RTD

 

This in fact didn't answer my question. I was asking how to link engines of a model with XML class names/aliases of engines, in similiar way that Stabilizers are connected to the XML. But I found the answer above, I think.

It, however, didn't explain me more important thing - how it's possible that lost of one engine decreases rotor's RPM so much that the heli becomes unflyable? 

 

3) We are supporting only  RTD::ConstantRPMEngine

 

That's actually sad, because the technology of implementation of a better RTD engine model you have obtained and developed for TKOH so long ago. In my personal point of view, it's going to be huge wasting of R&D efforts. 

 

4) Weird, there were no changes in RTD for APEX.

 

Maybe, it was changed some time before Apex. But, hey... do you mean by this that different power settings of an engine can be defined within XML and they do not break AFM ? Are there any "hidden" animation sources that would allow me to set throttle at different power settings then?

 

5,6) No. Those existed only for TKOH. It would be very inconsistent with other vehicles to have this still enabled. And we do not plan to re-enable them. Sorry.

 

Hey, no need to say sorry. I cannot find any resonable links between helicopter AFM and cars or boats. Rotor brake does not exists among other vehicles of armaverse. Seems to be different thing as long as a battery is concerned, but... in fact it's not. You can start the car's engine multiple times using its battery. You cannot do the same in helicopter. Because of such differences you have created different control pages in the game option, one for helicopter, other for plane or other vehicles, am I right? Really wierd, I would say.

 

By the way, in reagrds to further AFM development that is allegedly halted - If you do so, you have made decision that I see as incosistent, wasting work already made within the same (or similar) framework and simply damaging. It seems like you have brought to players nice sniper rifle with great ballistics mechanizm but without properly working trigger and scope. We see nice helicopter, with solid aerodynamics working in flying environment, but without relevant aviation engineering and flight instruments/controls for virtual pilots within the helicopter itself. It's wierd decision since it's attainable as you have already proved in TKOH. But, gents, you have made decision in YOUR business and I must respect it, regardless how much damaging I see such decisions as, unfortunately.

Anyway, thank you for all efforts you make to explain us your position in this matter.

 

[dr. hladik 231]

1) Yes, damage is handled by our engine and according to hitpoints damage we are changing  parameters of RTD simulation. While RTD does provide some damage system, it was rather unstable and hard to control. And as we need to be able to switch between our and RTD simulation at any time, we cannot fully utilize all features RTD provides.

 

2b) Our solution is probably not good enough :). Will check it (no promises).

 

3,4,5,6) limited manpower...

[NightIntruder 710]

1) Yes, damage is handled by our engine and according to hitpoints damage we are changing  parameters of RTD simulation. While RTD does provide some damage system, it was rather unstable and hard to control. And as we need to be able to switch between our and RTD simulation at any time, we cannot fully utilize all features RTD provides.

 

2b) Our solution is probably not good enough :). Will check it (no promises).

 

3,4,5,6) limited manpower...

 

Again, thanks for the response dr.Hladik :)

 

Regarding 1) - well, that's something I didn't think about, I have to admit. I missed the fact that you must remain consistent within both damage systems.

What I was able to achieve was whenever I lost one of my Mi-17's engine (the second one let's say), working "first" engine was able to provide enough power for a duration of flight for several minutes however a lost of altitude was inevitable. Whenever I lost "the first" engine, I lost all engines power. That was strange, and your reply partially explains me this weird phenomenon.

 

Regarding 2b) - Thanks, I know that's not a promise but take it serious. If you would found the way the RTD connects all those things like gearboxes, drive shafts, engines, rotors and differential mechanisms together, and if you would be able to make for them HitPoint classes, that would allow to create better and more realistic FireGeo LOD. This might be one of possible approach to the problem, I guess.

 

Regarding 3-6) - I wish I had enough programming skills and be retired from the army earlier to help you guys with the issues. The first will probably never happen to the level I would be happy with, the latter is planned to be true in April next year at latest ;) But, frankly speaking, a quality always drains more resources. But the quality always wins as well. I really hope that BI managers are truly aware of this rule. 

[Trooper1962 0]

I have a crazy question I'm definitely not a pilot but...

when the cyclic stick is released should the cyclic not return to a neutral position.

It seems unnatural to have to pull back past neutral to negate forward cyclic.

it seems that with proper trim set and the stick in a neutral position the aircraft should hold a hover as long as outside influence (wind, etc..) does not influence the aircraft.

is there any remedy for this . I have been looking for 2 days now for a solution.

[gatordev 219]

On 1/19/2017 at 0:50 PM, Trooper1962 said:

I have a crazy question I'm definitely not a pilot but...

when the cyclic stick is released should the cyclic not return to a neutral position.

It seems unnatural to have to pull back past neutral to negate forward cyclic.

it seems that with proper trim set and the stick in a neutral position the aircraft should hold a hover as long as outside influence (wind, etc..) does not influence the aircraft.

is there any remedy for this . I have been looking for 2 days now for a solution.

 

No.  This isn't how a helicopter works UNLESS it's being controlled by a coupler (which is a very unique situation).  But generally, even with a helo that has a very robust AFCS, when you push forward, and then release the stick, it will continue to move forward (and the stick will return to center).  If you want the stop moving forward, you'll have to pull back the cyclic to stop the drift, then move/release the stick to center.

[Trooper1962 0]

thanks for the input ill put in some more seat time :)

 

[xon2 102]

Helicopters from at least the 1960`s onwards often have various forms of 'Stability Augmentation Systems' (SAS) to assist the pilot to achieve stable flight with modes like 'altitude or attitude path hold' for instance. I really like the AFM and disabling 'auto trim' is especially fun for takeoffs and landing as well as NOE flight or anything where you need a very responsive, nible aircraft. But on long flights at medium to high altitude or when orbiting the AO for extended periods of time, it becomes quite tiring to constantly achieve that perfect trim that lets you focus on a recon role for example. Every couple of seconds you need to refocus on the helos attitude and retrim.

 

If we could enable a form of SAS on a button press like it is implemented with 'auto hover', this would greatly increase flexibility and i think realism. Luckily, this SAS substitute would not have to be 'reinvented or programmed' but is in the game already. The 'auto trim' functionality of the AFM kind of serves as a SAS, but its not easily accessable right now, its all or nothing. Auto trim on or off via the in game control settings.

 

Now that the jets dlc is upon us, there is gonna be a good deal of additions and changes to the control settings, new entries for new keybindings and such. Could you add a keybinding for 'auto trim' on and off as it is implemented for auto hover?

 

 

Addendum:

 

In the DCS A-10c manual on p.49 we read:

''Low Altitude Autopilot (LAAP). This includes the autopilot modes of Altitude/Bank Hold,
Altitude/Heading Hold, and Path Hold modes.''

 

The 'Altitude/Bank Hold' mode would be incredibly useful for recon helos which orbit an AO for extended periods of time. Especially when you fulfill this role solo, you need some form of flight assistance for this.

Edited March 31, 2017 by xon2

[Strike_NOR 898]

There's one thing that would greatly improve helicopters. Which is if they fixed it so that helicopters do not instantly explode when rolling over.

 

They already got the rotor destruction correct, but it would be amazing if they fixed the rolling over explosion. That is totally fake news stuff right there :p

[xon2 102]

I just wanted to express my appreciation of the helicopter AFM in light of my experience over the last two days in particular. I finally own a HOTAS (Thrustmaster TWCS) system for a couple of month now and since then i spend well above 100 hours flying and enjoying arma 3's various helos. Specifically, i spend countless hours in the MELB helicopter (mod) with all AFM settings set realistic as can be. It was quite a challange to get to grips with making all those constant tiny adjustments to achieve a stable flightpath flying with the AFM enabled, but after some time i got the hang of it.

 

So why do i write this up now? Two days back i got the DCS SA-342 Gazelle module knowing full well that it was praised for a very high fidelty flight model, albeit being a very twitchy and unfogiving aircraft at the same time. Hence i was sure to really be in for some heavy training to get anything done in that helo sim.

 

Boy was i wrong: not that the Gazelle in dcs is easily controlled or arcady....it is a very fine module and it shows all those intricate flight characteristics dcs quality is known for. Rather, all the helo flight mechanics you need to get a grip on for such a high fidelity module like the Gazelle, i was taught flying Arma 3 AFM helos. Countering torque with left or right pedal and arresting sidedrift with cyclic when lifting off....and generally being one step ahead of the aircraft and preemting its movements with minute inputs.

Arma 3's AFM does not feel to different among the helicopters...but then again, arma is not a full fidelity simulation only geared towards aircraft. But, the AFM has all the building blocks that give you the proper training you need to step up to 'almost the real thing'!