Episode 3, "Game Over" mission

[rekrul 7]

So I finished the seek answers, join nato and left Altis but there's no explanation of the seismic activity. Is there anyway to solve this mystery? I want to know how to solve it, not the answer. For now at least. :)

[2nd ranger 282]

What's the mystery? Remember the truck with the big device in the back that you took to Miller?

[rekrul 7]

Yes? Can I find it/them somewhere?

I was hoping to find out what it is and what it does. What's with the earthquakes and why are CSAT and ANF fighting each other now? What happend to the rest of the NATO forces?

[NATOJO 10]

I was able to save so were some of my other buddies

[Echo38 1]

I've been enjoying the campaign. However, the lack of the usual save in this mission is game-breaking. I've spent over thirty hours trying to complete this last mission, and still haven't finished all four objectives. A few minutes ago, I got farther than I ever have before; I rescued all of the US and FIA soldiers and finally got them out of the swamp without being shot through the fog by the apparently always-thermal-all-the-time specop enemies, and was approaching the helibase excitedly when ... game crash. Seriously? The lack of a save would be bad enough if the game were stable -- what with the enemy A.I's good old still-sees-through-stuff-it-shouldn't B.S. -- but when you factor in game crashes ... and you can't even resume if you have to shut down the game, but must complete the mission in a single sitting. This mission isn't literally unfinishable on Expert -- a colossal amount of playtime coupled with a large enough helping of good luck could do it -- but it's very close to being unbeatable, even with an enormous degree of care, effort, and skill on the part of the player.

[PavelKrupets 10]

Ending is a huge let down. Apart from crashes I don't want to spend a lot of time on a game (barely have enough time to play campaign anyway). Anyway. Wanted to buy 2nd copy to support devs but now I am not even going to buy new games from BI. Screw you BI and people who work here.

[matrixrybus 10]

I cleared the facility of CSAT soldiers ( what armor do they use? A normal granade couldn't kill them at once...). I took Tempest ( because YES! :D) and tried to get to the AAF's helipad on the east. I picked up NATO soldiers, escaped from STRIDER .50 cal and an AAF patrol ( no casualties). I drove to western edge of the swamp, ordered to go in column and took from engi the mine detector, if any mines were close enough I ordered engi to defuse them. then I picked FIA guerillas and with the same tactic I reached the end of the swamp on the east. Before I attacked the helipad I just didn't want to die so I did set the A.I. to 0/0. When I was close some AAF soldier started shooting and in 5 seconds he killed my 3 crew members ( I was like: WTH?! HOW DID HE DO THAT?!...ehhh ok these guys just didn't have luck...) Then a group of 3 AAF soldiers came out of nowhere, so I did hide behind a rock and SOMEHOW SOME RANDOM BULLET INSTA-KILLED ME ( headshot I guess). and that in one of the reasons why I want the freakin save game option ON!

[manesh 1]

Whoever had the glorious idea of disabling saving in this mission; dude - why?

Seriously, why do you want to piss off big parts of your customers just because you think it's a cool idea and probably will help the setting of this mission?

I want to play this mission without going enrage because some bullet hit me and I have to replay through a lot of stuff again.

Enable the save function. Thank you.

[Ranwer135 308]

Actually, according to all SP content, they all do have a save function. :icon_rolleyes: (in the Arma 3 campaign, sometimes you need to complete an objective before it saves)

It sounds like you are dying before completing the first objective/waypoint? :confused: (no offense)

[Jona33 51]

No, save is disabled in this mission. When you die you just go into the campaign credits, so we can be fairly certain Kerry won't be appearing in future campaigns since it doesn't really matter whether you survive or not.

[Variable 322]

Someone posted here a saveable version of the mission.

Personally, the disabled save option on this mission made it much more existing for me.

[OMAC 254]

The misty swamp is crawling with enemy patrols, including specops. Even if you avoid the mines, the patrols spot you through the mist/fog, but you can't see them. If you do spot them, it's usually too late for you. Last 30 min to one hour wasted. The roving swamp patrols and mists alone are worth adding savegame capability. Yes, one can probably make it through the mission by chance one out of ~25-40 times (I will keep trying on Veteran). But is it fun?

Edit: No saves is an intriguing design concept on paper, especially for designers who don't actually play the game and/or understand Arma players. I wonder if they snicker or laugh when they think of all the hapless players thrashing through the swamp again and again? I wonder if it's possible to disable manual saves, but still have autosaves at certain key junctures, such as after optional objectives are completed? That seems like a better idea to me.

The one good thing about Game Over is that when you finally do complete it with all optional objectives completed on Veteran or Expert, you will feel rather satisfied. But is that brief sense of satisfaction worth the many hours spent doing the same things over and over again?

I cleared the facility of CSAT soldiers ( what armor do they use? A normal granade couldn't kill them at once...). I took Tempest ( because YES! :D) and tried to get to the AAF's helipad on the east. I picked up NATO soldiers, escaped from STRIDER .50 cal and an AAF patrol ( no casualties). I drove to western edge of the swamp, ordered to go in column and took from engi the mine detector, if any mines were close enough I ordered engi to defuse them. then I picked FIA guerillas and with the same tactic I reached the end of the swamp on the east. Before I attacked the helipad I just didn't want to die so I did set the A.I. to 0/0. When I was close some AAF soldier started shooting and in 5 seconds he killed my 3 crew members ( I was like: WTH?! HOW DID HE DO THAT?!...ehhh ok these guys just didn't have luck...) Then a group of 3 AAF soldiers came out of nowhere, so I did hide behind a rock and SOMEHOW SOME RANDOM BULLET INSTA-KILLED ME ( headshot I guess). and that in one of the reasons why I want the freakin save game option ON!

Yes, nearly the same exact thing happened to me at the AAF heliport east of swamp. After close to an hour of painstaking play, I was headshotted by hidden sniper. I had just scanned area with laser rangefinder in thermal optics, and had spotted only one AAF soldier near vehicles. I took him out, and then two seconds later...POP. Game over. So close, yet so ()&**&^#&$%*@@* far.

Edit: I got to end after a few more reverts; pretty much a letdown. I finally got to heliport east of swamp, after my NATO squad spotted a hidden enemy Marksman ~500m to south (I never saw him - he likely took me out with the headshot last time), and vanquished AAF enemy there, only to find...no chopper. So we all boarded Mora IFV and drove south about 1 km to a port. My Mora gunner took out a squad of enemy specops along the way, including an AT soldier. I was driving the Mora, and saw an AT missile shoot by right in front of me - it missed. So me and two other squad members boarded boat and took off, leaving about 4 guys stranded. :-( That was it. The End.

Edited November 17, 2014 by OMAC

[OceanicUK 10]

[Deleted]

Edited January 3, 2015 by OceanicUK

[PaterPruts 13]

Someone posted here a saveable version of the mission.

Personally, the disabled save option on this mission made it much more existing for me.

Any details on this? I can't find it. I loved the campaign. Wan't to finish it but I don't wan't to finish it in frustration..

EDIT: it's ok. Finished it. It was nice.

Edited January 11, 2015 by fragmentpruts

[Pomi Git 256]

It's really not necessary to create a modified version of the mission. You just need to create a simple script to override save disabled. I've created a mod that does this and it works perfectly in this campaign mission. I can post it later if anyone is interested.

[lugiahua 26]

As discussed before, the save disable was intentional.

As Kerry already fulfilled his "role", his survival was insignificant to the story line.

(Like the first marine in the original Doom game)

I do understand why people are so frustrate about this? You don't always win or survive even you did everything right by the textbook.

[drebin052 324]

As Kerry already fulfilled his "role", his survival was insignificant to the story line.

Seeing as how BI chose Deception as PMC's official ending, I doubt Game Over is canon in the first place. Hence why Kerry's survival doesn't matter for this ending.

[Pomi Git 256]

As discussed before, the save disable was intentional.

BI's intention for this ending is confusing and doesn't appear to have been thought through properly. If the intention is for a player to die and never escape then why not set up the mission so its impossible to escape? Surround you with wave after wave of enemy AI until you die would make more sense and to be honest would be a kinda fun way to end it. Go out in a blaze of glory.

If the intention is for the player to escape via the quickest and safest route, why fill the whole island with stuff? Why not just give you one location to reach? Id still prefer a save option for this mind you.

If the intention is to encourage players to visit all the stuff they've put around the island, then why remove the save option? Why would anyone in their right mind make the effort, not to mention time, of going to the other side of Altis to escape, when there is no save option! reading through posts on this forum highlights how annoying this is. You spend two hours to make your way to a location and then get sniped. Game over.

I'm all for freedom of choice, but this is a no brainer for me, unless you want the player to die and never return, a save option is a must.

Edited January 22, 2015 by pomigit
decided to have a rant

[Variable 322]

For some reason you phrase your questions as if there's no reasonable answers to them.

BI's intention for this ending is confusing and doesn't appear to have been thought through properly. If the intention is for a player to die and never escape then why not set up the mission so its impossible to escape? Surround you with wave after wave of enemy AI until you die would make more sense and to be honest would be a kinda fun way to end it. Go out in a blaze of glory.

Because the chosen alternative is much more interesting, immersive, full of possibilities and more fun then just die in the face of impossible odds?

If the intention is for the player to escape via the quickest and safest route, why fill the whole island with stuff?

To immerse the player in a warlike environment that is full of danger, opportunities and adventure.

Why not just give you one location to reach?

What the hell... Because options is a good thing! Especially in a game like Arma.

If the intention is to encourage players to visit all the stuff they've put around the island, then why remove the save option?

The player is in no way encouraged to "visit all the stuff they put around the island". The player is advised to pick the route he preferes to complete the mission. The save is disable to promote a thrilling experience, that involves fear and anxiety.

[OMAC 254]

Immersion is the Holy Grail for any mission developer. Fear, anxiety, pressure, danger, desperation = immersion. Fear is enhanced by facing the unknown: uncertainty as to which path to take in the face a vast, nearly infinite array of possible paths. BI certainly achieved immersion in Game Over.

But there is a very fine line between immersion and frustration/tedium. No serious Arma player is going to give up on a mission like Game Over, and will replay it until he escapes the island. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is happy when you are killed by unseen enemy after 30-60 minutes of painstaking play, as their hearts sink with the knowledge that they will have to re-do their steps up to that point. :mad: As I wrote earlier, I think that if autosaves (not manual saves) had been included at certain key junctures, like when you accomplish certain tasks, then frustration would have been diminished, but immersion maintained. I have no problem at all with disabled saves if there were no tasks other than leaving the island, but BI included various optional tasks, like checking out the research lab (which already had been explored - WTF), rescuing stranded teams, etc. Redoing these tasks over and over again is tedious. Of course, no one must re-do the tasks; they are optional. But I don't know many Arma players who like avoiding tasks, avoiding adventure.

Hardcore Arma players like the unknown, and may want to replay the mission to try different routes. But the lack of autosaves makes it much less likely that players will replay, as the frustration level is so high.

In the end, for a gaming company, the last mission of a long campaign should be about what impression you would like to leave in the player's mind. Game Over is walking the line between immersion and frustration, and will leave some players with a bad impression, as evidenced by sentiments expressed in this thread.

[Pomi Git 256]

For some reason you phrase your questions as if there's no reasonable answers to them.

They're rhetorical questions to make my point that it's a poorly implemented mission that has clearly frustrated a lot of people.

Because the chosen alternative is much more interesting, immersive, full of possibilities and more fun then just die in the face of impossible odds?

As I said freedom of choice is great, but I think they left this mission too open and thus imo it feels convoluted. I think any good mission designer has a clear idea of what they want the primary outcome to be. Despite the stated objective of "escape from the island", it's not clear to me what they really want the outcome to be, or how they expect a player to go about it. Irrespective of freedom provided you at least need a basic idea of how you expect the mission to play out and likely challenges experienced.

To immerse the player in a warlike environment that is full of danger, opportunities and adventure.

You don't need to fill the entire island of Altis with "stuff" to achieve this.

What the hell... Because options is a good thing! Especially in a game like Arma.

We are not in disagreement there, but wouldnt enabling saves provide more options and cater for different skill levels? I mean a player can choose not to use them. You could even just do the mission on expert level for a true challenge

The player is in no way encouraged to "visit all the stuff they put around the island".

Well that's your opinion but to me it's not clear. If they're not encouraging you to have a crack at going to the other side of island to visit a heliport, why put it there? (Rhetorical question again, you don't need to answer this)

The save is disable to promote a thrilling experience, that involves fear and anxiety.

I think you mean enforce because promote implies there's a choice. Keep in mind that utilising saves is not compulsory

Edited January 25, 2015 by pomigit

[karhu 1]

Cancelled

---------- Post added at 08:44 ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 ----------

It's really not necessary to create a modified version of the mission. You just need to create a simple script to override save disabled. I've created a mod that does this and it works perfectly in this campaign mission. I can post it later if anyone is interested.

Hello

Could you please post that mod, please?

Edited January 26, 2015 by Karhu
forgot to put quoted text

[Pomi Git 256]

Cancelled

---------- Post added at 08:44 ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 ----------

Hello

Could you please post that mod, please?

Done

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=382235187

[erictviking 10]

Done

That's awesome pomigit - works like a charm

I spent most of today trying to play this mission, the decision to not allow saves is extremely lame in a big mission as open as this one. I managed to save the FIA guys in the marsh without saves, even got to the heliport and got us away in a Wildcat. But had no idea what to do after that and died.

Glad I've got the save mod mate, now I can go back and play the mission in loads of different ways without having to start from scratch every time!

[Pomi Git 256]

Cheers, enjoy :)