Ukraine General

[Beagle 684]

I think you know the answer already. Putin reminds me of Frederick II of Prussia...the annexation of Bohemia and Silesia made him extremele popular among his people. And albait his actions were clearly illegal even in that times...he is still known as a great monarch of the idea of enlightment.

[mistyronin 1181]

I think you know the answer already. Putin reminds me of Frederick II of Prussia...the annexation of Bohemia and Silesia made him extremele popular among his people. And albait his actions were clearly illegal even in that times...he is still known as a great monarch of the idea of enlightment.

So you would agree with me that in a similar situation ( an armed insurrection inside Russia ), Putin would use the armed forces to crush it?

Well Putin, and I guess almost any other chief of state of the world. Ergo the military operation of the Ukrainian government against the armed insurrection is what any other country would do? Or at least Russia will do the same.

Edited April 16, 2014 by MistyRonin

[akm74 1]

So you would agree with me that in a similar situation ( an armed insurrection inside Russia ), Putin would use the armed forces to crush it?

Well Putin, and I guess almost any other chief of state of the world. Ergo the military operation of the Ukrainian government against the armed insurrection is what any other country would do? Or at least Russia will do the same.

ironically its not that easy. I will explain why.

I will pick some "troubled" small region for example. Ingushetia.

If you have referendum now in Ingushetia and Russia with 1 simple question:

Do they have to stay with Russia or Be separated (independent). You will get unexpected result.

50-60% in Ingushetia will vote to stay in Russia. But In Russia you will get 99% vote to let them go (even separate them by force).

Since we know public opinion important for Putin...:)

I was trying to compare between to similar situations, internal insurrections. Compare a internal insurrection and how countries fight them, and a external invasion is IMO not comparable

i see. Don't blame you..:) it was least bloody "occupation" in a world history.

What about with a sober president? Because Putin is one of the main allies of Al Assad in Syria, and supports all his actions.

Of course he is. If you look who is actually "opposition" in Syria ... Assad "innocent angel" in comparison.

Edited April 16, 2014 by AKM74

[mistyronin 1181]

If you have referendum now in Ingushetia and Russia with 1 simple question:

Do they have to stay with Russia or Be separated (independent). You will get unexpected result.

50-60% in Ingushetia will vote to stay in Russia. But In Russia you will get 99% vote to let them go (even separate them by force).

Since we know public opinion important for Putin...:).

I'd like to know the source of your data.

i see. Don't blame you..:) it was least bloody "occupation" in a world history.

Nazi annexation of Austria ( Anschluss ), the Sudetes, or the invasion of Denmark were also relatively bloodless. But in moral and legal terms we could have a long debate ( which personally I'm not interested in ).

Of course he is. If you look who is actually "opposition" in Syria ... Assad "innocent angel" in comparison.

Same most of people of the world think about pro-Russian "angels" ( judging by the newspaper editorials and comments from abroad press in different languages, UN vote, etc.).

[akm74 1]

Same most of people of the world think about pro-Russian "angels" ( judging by the newspaper editorials and comments from abroad press in different languages, UN vote, etc.).

I have opposite experience... even in US.

Edited April 16, 2014 by AKM74

[ProfTournesol 956]

I'm suprised by the lack of action of the Ukrainian armed forces. I understand the need to protect unarmed pro Russian protesters, but i'm still not sure that the Army and security forces are really backing the new Kiew government.

[mistyronin 1181]

It's not clear if they have been seized or some Ukrainian paratroopers have turned sides ( judging by some of the videos, seems likely the latest ).

( The Guardian ) Pro-Russian separatists seize Ukrainian armoured vehicles

Video from RT:

With armored vehicles at the insurrection disposal, the stakes have gone higher.

IMO seems more and more likely that a war will take place in Donetsk Region.

[negah 26]

I'm suprised by the lack of action of the Ukrainian armed forces. I understand the need to protect unarmed pro Russian protesters, but i'm still not sure that the Army and security forces are really backing the new Kiew government.

What looks like some ukrainian airborne troops have aparrently switched sides.

Sorry its in german, looked up on BBC and CNN and found nothing there, and russian sources are generally greeted as "Putin's propagandachine strikes again ZOMGROFL" here.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-panzer-der-ukrainischen-armee-wechseln-seiten-a-964690.html

"Wir haben seit Wochen nichts Vernünftiges zu essen bekommen, Kiew hat uns vergessen. Jetzt reicht es uns"

We had not much to eat since weeks, Kiev have just forgot about us. Its enough.

EDIT: seems I was too slow at typing, I should just keep lurking here :)

[Tonci87 163]

Well at least they are having fun

Russian armored troop transports are so awesome!

[arttem 1]

Václav Klaus, Jiří Weigl, Echo24.cz, 15. dubna 2014

http://www.klaus.cz/clanky/3550

Nemalá Äást evropského politického mainstreamu (ale daleko ménÄ› NÄ›mecko a už vůbec ne celé jižní křídlo EU) se spolu se Spojenými státy snaží znovuvytvoÅ™it Rusko jako „strašáka“ na VýchodÄ›, což je – zejména americký – strategický zájem. Ukrajina je v tomto smyslu jenom nástrojem. Ani toto není v naÅ¡em zájmu a nemůžeme na tom v žádném ohledu nic vydÄ›lat. Možná, že na tom bude vydÄ›lávat skupinka naÅ¡ich malých Äeských „neokonů“, kteří na opoždÄ›ném souboji s komunismem a sovÄ›tským imperialismem budují i nadále svou kariéru – která je umožnÄ›na jedinÄ› tím, že na to Äást naÅ¡ich spoluobÄanů stále jeÅ¡tÄ› slyší.

[akm74 1]

With armored vehicles at the insurrection disposal, the stakes have gone higher.

IMO seems more and more likely that a war will take place in Donetsk Region.

it quite the opposite really...

[derk yall 0]

Artem: Nothing unexpected from Václav "Tunelpapá" Klaus Narcis I. . As always he has no touch with reality :).

[Rydygier 1302]

http://www.wprost.pl/ar/444527/Rosjanie-chca-zabic-ludzi-a-nastepnie-wyslac-wojska-Jest-dowod/

Vitaly Najda, one of the commanders of the Security Service of Ukraine reported that the Ukrainians managed to capture part of discussions of Russian saboteurs acting on the territory of Ukraine. They show that the Russians want to kill 100-200 people and then send the troops - Ukrainian Pravda reports.

-We have captured and documented conversations that testify to the fact that they need to kill 100-200 people and then 1.5 hours on the territory of Ukraine will be tanks and the Russian army - said Najda.

SBU officer stressed that apart saboteurs in Ukraine operate functionaries of Russian Spetsnaz and from 45th Independent Guard's Brigade of the GRU commanded by Igor Striełkov. The same forces occupied government buildings in the Crimea, and took part in Chechen war and occupation of Georgia.

http://swiat.newsweek.pl/nato-wysyla-wojsko-na-wschod-newsweek-pl,artykuly,284175,1.html

Another vessels will enter the Baltic Sea, inreasing amount of aircraft will patrol the border from the air. NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen announced the strengthening of NATO forces on the eastern borders of the Union.

- The aim of our present decisions is the defense, deterrence, and de-escalation. These decisions are completely consistent with our international obligations. And represent a clear signal that NATO will protect each Ally and defend against any threat to our basic security - said the head of NATO.

Rasmussen also called for a political solution to the crisis in Ukraine and called on Russia to withdraw its troops from the border with Ukraine, cease to destabilize the situation in Ukraine and distance themselves from the actions of pro-Russian separatist groups. He hoped that scheduled for Thursday in Geneva meeting of the foreign ministers of Ukraine, Russia, the U.S. and the EU will help find a peaceful and political solution to the crisis in Ukraine.

Russia, in turn, warned that the deployment of NATO forces in the region would be inconsistent with the arrangements from the time of the establishment of the NATO-Russia Council. The founding act of the NATO-Russia 1997 Alliance confirmed that "in the present circumstances in the security sphere" will carry out the objectives of collective defense and other missions rather by ensuring the interoperability, integration and the ability to strengthen their forces than "through additional permanent stationing of substantial combat forces. "

[mistyronin 1181]

it quite the opposite really...

Let's hope you are right, but in history books we can see that the more weapons you get in one place the worst the situation goes, its like throwing fuel to a fire.

[Tonci87 163]

http://www.wprost.pl/ar/444527/Rosjanie-chca-zabic-ludzi-a-nastepnie-wyslac-wojska-Jest-dowod/

And that is most likely just Ukrainian propaganda BS.

[mistyronin 1181]

( The Economist ) Insatiable

FIRST Vladimir Putin mauled Georgia, but the world forgave him—because Russia was too important to be cut adrift. Then he gobbled up Crimea, but the world accepted it—because Crimea should have been Russian all along. Now he has infiltrated eastern Ukraine, but the world is hesitating—because infiltration is not quite invasion. But if the West does not face up to Mr Putin now, it may find him at its door.

The storming of police stations in eastern Ukraine over the weekend by pro-Russian protesters (see article) is a clever move, for it has put the interim government in Kiev in an impossible position. Mr Putin has warned that Ukraine is on the brink of civil war. If the country’s government fails to take control, it will open itself to charges that it cannot keep order within its own borders. But its soldiers are poorly trained, so in using force (operations were under way as The Economist went to press) it risks escalation and bloodshed. Either way, it loses.

[Dwarden 1124]

btw. ""insurgency"" using Ukraine vehicles and equipment and uniforms etc. ...

you people seems forgot what all was captured by Russians in Crimea region ...

it gives chance to use those for w/e shady ops or to share them with local insurgency/militia/rebels w/e

that included APCs, tanks, transport vehicles, copters, airplanes, ship etc.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Dwarden

[spooky lynx 73]

http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/909778/

Kramatorsk, Ukrainian army airborne troops try to enter the town, one of BMDs override civil car with driver (who managed to escape at last moment).

BMDs, crews of which preferred to join anti-junta protesters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k0bGE8AB2A

Edited April 16, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[akm74 1]

btw. ""insurgency"" using Ukraine vehicles and equipment and uniforms etc. ...

you people seems forgot what all was captured by Russians in Crimea region ...

it gives chance to use those for w/e shady ops or to share them with local insurgency/militia/rebels w/e

that included APCs, tanks, transport vehicles, copters, airplanes, ship etc.

http://media.giphy.com/media/2AE3Lg4AyVkIM/giphy.gif (529 kB)

[Tonci87 163]

http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/909778/

Kramatorsk, Ukrainian army airborne troops try to enter the town, one of BMDs override civil car with driver (who managed to escape at last moment).

Lesson learned: Don´t be the idiot who is trying to stop a tracked vehicle with a car. You can see that he didn´t really try to run over the car, he hit the rear to push it out of the way and to immobilize it.

Is it gunfire I hear in the video? I suppose the Soldiers are firing their guns into the air to scare off the crowd. Before that you can hear something that sounds like stones beeing thrown on the BMD.

[Beagle 684]

Lesson learned: Don´t be the idiot who is trying to stop a tracked vehicle with a car. You can see that he didn´t really try to run over the car, he hit the rear to push it out of the way and to immobilize it.

Is it gunfire I hear in the video? I suppose the Soldiers are firing their guns into the air to scare off the crowd. Before that you can hear something that sounds like stones beeing thrown on the BMD.

All i can see it shaky "bigfoot footage" with censorship beeps.

[spooky lynx 73]

Lesson learned: Don´t be the idiot who is trying to stop a tracked vehicle with a car. You can see that he didn´t really try to run over the car, he hit the rear to push it out of the way and to immobilize it.

Is it gunfire I hear in the video? I suppose the Soldiers are firing their guns into the air to scare off the crowd. Before that you can hear something that sounds like stones beeing thrown on the BMD.

One more lesson learned: regime that is friendly to EU has indulgence to override the civil cars by APCs even if it can cause deaths of civilians. I bet the same done by army while Yanuk was in power would cause giant shytestorm like "ZOMG bloody dictator orders his orcs to smash innocent civilians with armored vehicles!!!!!11". But in this case only "They are idiots if they try to stop APC with a car". Well, good...

[Tonci87 163]

One more lesson learned: regime that is friendly to EU has indulgence to override the civil cars by APCs even if it can cause deaths of civilians. I bet the same done by army while Yanuk was in power would cause giant shytestorm like "ZOMG bloody dictator orders his orcs to smash innocent civilians with armored vehicles!!!!!11". But in this case only "They are idiots if they try to stop APC with a car". Well, good...

I didn´t say it was ok to smash the car, I only tried to describe why it happened. In this incident everyone is to blaim. First the idiot in the car who actively maneuvered it in front of the BMD (you can see that the BMD changes it´s direction a few times, indicating that the car is repositioning to stay in front of him), the Batshit crazy crowd and the soldiers who lost their nerves. At least noone was hurt. This could have become very ugly.

[mistyronin 1181]

Seems that the Party of the Regions ( where Yanukovich used to rule ) is having an event in the Donbas Region, as slogans:

Chosen slogans at the Donetsk Party of Regions meeting: "Strong Donbas - United Country!" "Donbas without weapons!"

Link to the tweet

Well its outstanding that there's still those who are trying to peacefully solve the situation.

Edited April 16, 2014 by MistyRonin

[mistyronin 1181]

I've got a great idea: We all stop taking people who live in an distinctly undemocratic nation spamming links to regime controlled media seriously, and all of a sudden, this thread will die out. I know that I certainly can't take those people seriously.

That worked really well during the cold war...:rolleyes: