Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

If i were neighbour of Russia, i'd need a lot of defensive weapons.

[scrim 1]

Amen. And a minefield that would dwarf the Korean DMZ.

[vilas 477]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

seems they are in some regions veeeeery strong, this is problem,

from one side corrupted Timoshenko (who have long list of criminal charges including ordering murder) on the other side nazis,

not good, not good, really dangerous situation , because some of those guys claim that Poland should give them territory on which Ukrainians live (south-east region)

[mistyronin 1181]

If i were neighbour of Russia, i'd need a lot of defensive weapons.

Well that's the reason why below my building there is an air-raid shelter, like in most Finnish residences. When you have an expansionist neighbor...

[Rydygier 1317]

In the meantime in Warsaw...

http://prawo.rp.pl/artykul/757713,1092094.html

Group of residents of Warsaw wants to sue Putin. Stress caused by his actions on the Crimea and violation of international law are the cause of a lawsuit being prepared against Vladimir Putin. (Group of Warsaw residents sue Vladimir Putin for having infringed their personal interests by caused stress.)

Edited March 6, 2014 by Rydygier

[comm_yuri 10]

Amen. And a minefield that would dwarf the Korean DMZ.

Hm, interesting. Sophisticated ( smart / threat detecting ) mines could be worth a thought. off topic, not necessarily in regards to borderisation.

[sudayev 27]

Well that's the reason why below my building there is an air-raid shelter, like in most Finnish residences. When you have an expansionist neighbor...

I heard about Switzerland and Israel, but Finland no. Cool!

It only shows that Finland care about it's citizens in case of conflict. It also shows that you people learned the history lesson very well!

Who in Poland builds bomb shelters these days? Shelters are, but only in key buildings of most of the cities (to house ruling body - not commoners though), built either by Germans before WW2 or commies after the war. If any political party would propose the necessity of bomb shelter in every apartment house - they would be called fascists, warmongers. Most of these assholes in our parliament think that times of war have passed and the Euroland is perfectly safe, while out Defense Minister says - that presence of 30 US servicemen is a guarantee of safety to Poland HAHA .

Some of them are deep in the ass, still thinking that British will die for Warsaw or something like that, while spending money on army is a waste of funds and better to spend them on a social care (which despite that efforts is very poor) :D Nevertheless, recent events have sparkled a more self-preservative way of thinking and some of our politicians of pro-Euro ruling party have started speaking with bit of sense... But enough of big words and self promotions and time for actions.

[vilas 477]

Group of residents of Warsaw wants to sue Putin. Stress caused by his actions on the Crimea and violation of international law are the cause of a lawsuit being prepared against Vladimir Putin.

cucumber season news , few citizens who can do nothing except some show in one or another newspaper , rather ridiculous , comments say that they are laughable and none lawyer will take it as case cause you cannot sue other country citizen in different country court, such case do not meet jurisdiction formally, rather those guys wanted to be famous in press, maybe local activists of minor party or like this, basic question is - to what court ? i treat this in style of commedy

[Nicholas 5]

Well that's the reason why below my building there is an air-raid shelter, like in most Finnish residences. When you have an expansionist neighbor...

Honestly, I had no idea that they did that over there. Quite unusual to me, but I can understand why. Impressive that the bunkers can accomodate roughly 71% of the population.

Never been in any kind of bunker in my life except an old missile silo control room, and that was a tour.

[nodunit 397]

ABM is defence not offensive weapon, it is defence system, what kind of threat is ABM ? like bulletproof vest is not weapon too,

Well if we use cold war logic and considering that is sort of when all of these missile shields came about, then a battery that close to russia, with any western influence could be seen as a threat..

Not to mention the idea that if you have a protection net then you either intend aggression or have something to hide.

It was silly really, deploying missiles here so the other guy deploys missiles there and then one side gets upset because the other is developing a missile net...heck don't forget, there was a point in the cold war that the only way in which to lessen tension was to essentially allow both superpowers a garuntee that they could destroy eachother.

In the meantime in Warsaw...

http://prawo.rp.pl/artykul/757713,1092094.html

Group of residents of Warsaw wants to sue Putin. Stress caused by his actions on the Crimea and violation of international law are the cause of a lawsuit being prepared against Vladimir Putin. (Group of Warsaw residents sue Vladimir Putin for having infringed their personal interests by caused stress.)

Is that really possible? To sue the Russian leader, at least without dissapearing?

[spooky lynx 73]

Lynx: No. That's not how it works in the civilized world. We don't say "oh, you're bothering a regime, we're cutting you off from democracy, you've clearly had too much".

And oh really? The pro-Russian council put in power by the Russian military and "led" by a politician who only received 4% of the votes in an actual free election, say they want to break off from Ukraine and join Russia? Why, how fascinating. While you're at it, can't you tell us again just why you think it's totally weird how former WP countries despise Russia.

At first, the whole term "civilized world" is abstract. At second, Mr.Churchill lost elections too. Yanuk won elections over EU&NATO fanboy Yushenko (fact that was proved by OSCE and other international organiztions). So should we think of Churchill as poor loser and Yanuk as glorious lord who won over dirty corrupt orange regime? I suppose no in both cases. So the fact that some time ago a politician got 4% at elections during peaceful time does not matter he/she is weird politician and manager in revolutional environment. Maybe after some time they will lose elections again. But now they successfully manage the Crimea - still there's no clashes, takeovers of property, beatings and tortures of those who don't agree with them. Nobody has to jump to prove he/she is not moskal. Nobody attacks prosecutors or governors like Sashko Bilyi. Nobody has to shrink pensions and raise gas&water prices for sake of getting IMF loan. Nobody grants a governor posts to oligarchs who supported maidan.

ABM is defence not offensive weapon, it is defence system, what kind of threat is ABM ? like bulletproof vest is not weapon too,

Bulletproof vest can be worn by a robber too, yes? No weapon can be defencive or offencive. It can be used in both ways. ABM is not exception.

[Tonci87 163]

@Spooky, you are not able to understand what a defensive Weapon is? ABM= Anti-Ballistic-Missile System. It can´t be used to target russian houses, only missiles. So the only reason why the russian government should be afraid of such a system is if they plan on using ICBMs eventually.

[spooky lynx 73]

If i were neighbour of Russia, i'd need a lot of defensive weapons.

... says a citizen of a country that invaded Russia at least three times in recent 200 years.:D Just facepalm.

Amen. And a minefield that would dwarf the Korean DMZ.

May I ask, what country do you live in? Isn't it a country that participated in intervention after 1918 and developed "Dropshot" plan?

Well that's the reason why below my building there is an air-raid shelter, like in most Finnish residences. When you have an expansionist neighbor...

Well, there are plenty of bomb shelters in Russia too. Even metro is designed to serve as a shelter. Guess why (no, not because of commies paranoia)? Oh and don't forget Finnish participation in intervention after 1917 revolution.

So, to be honest, who is expansionist? And why do all of you forget your own little sins that were just slightly before the thinks you accuse my country of?

[vilas 477]

so far there are press newses about Russians making problems to Ukrainians on Crimea

so Putin "protecting" is bullshit, Russian nationalists for example demolish houses of Ukrainians as press shows example of cutting electricity wires from Ukrainian houses by Russians there

[scrim 1]

At first, the whole term "civilized world" is abstract. At second, Mr.Churchill lost elections too. Yanuk won elections over EU&NATO fanboy Yushenko (fact that was proved by OSCE and other international organiztions). So should we think of Churchill as poor loser and Yanuk as glorious lord who won over dirty corrupt orange regime? I suppose no in both cases. So the fact that some time ago a politician got 4% at elections during peaceful time does not matter he/she is weird politician and manager in revolutional environment. Maybe after some time they will lose elections again. But now they successfully manage the Crimea - still there's no clashes, takeovers of property, beatings and tortures of those who don't agree with them. Nobody has to jump to prove he/she is not moskal. Nobody attacks prosecutors or governors like Sashko Bilyi. Nobody has to shrink pensions and raise gas&water prices for sake of getting IMF loan. Nobody grants a governor posts to oligarchs who supported maidan.

Bulletproof vest can be worn by a robber too, yes? No weapon can be defencive or offencive. It can be used in both ways. ABM is not exception.

Are you trolling me right now? The difference between Churchill and the former Ukrainian president, as well as the Crimean puppet couldn't be bigger. Yes, Churchill did lose an election. However, Churchill did not A, have the police gun down demonstrators, or B, do anything he could to break the constitution, or C, come to power as a puppet installed by a hostile occupying army.

The Crimea is not a place that can in any way be described as a "revolutional environment". It is the contrary, a land under the firm control of a foreign invader, that appoints political leaders at will and apparently intends to hold elections.

Yeah, you clearly don't understand what an ABM system is. Or what an independent country is. Or what international law is.

[spooky lynx 73]

@Spooky, you are not able to understand what a defensive Weapon is? ABM= Anti-Ballistic-Missile System. It can´t be used to target russian houses, only missiles. So the only reason why the russian government should be afraid of such a system is if they plan on using ICBMs eventually.

I am able to understand that ABM can serve as another serious threat to our counterattack ability.

[mistyronin 1181]

Well, there are plenty of bomb shelters in Russia too. Even metro is designed to serve as a shelter. Guess why (no, not because of commies paranoia)? Oh and don't forget Finnish participation in intervention after 1917 revolution.

Well if you act as a bully and invade half Europe, no wonder you will need shelters.

On the other hand, would you mind developing a bit what were you referring about the "Finnish participation in intervention after 1917 revolution" ( as it's offtopic, you can send me a PM, I'm really curious ).

BTW an interesting tweet:

If Russian govt. endorses Crimean referendum, will they also allow/endorse similar votes in republics in Russian Federation?

Chechnya's population would be interested I think...

Edited March 6, 2014 by MistyRonin

[nodunit 397]

I am able to understand that ABM can serve as another serious threat to our counterattack ability.

That mentality seems oddly familiar.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62x16IKGmYQ

Edited March 6, 2014 by NodUnit

[spooky lynx 73]

Are you trolling me right now? The difference between Churchill and the former Ukrainian president, as well as the Crimean puppet couldn't be bigger. Yes, Churchill did lose an election. However, Churchill did not A, have the police gun down demonstrators, or B, do anything he could to break the constitution, or C, come to power as a puppet installed by a hostile occupying army.

May you not accuse of trolling in case of nothing to say? I point you to simple fact that result of elections alone does not matter much. May you understand it?

The Crimea is not a place that can in any way be described as a "revolutional environment". It is the contrary, a land under the firm control of a foreign invader, that appoints political leaders at will and apparently intends to hold elections.

The whole country is in revolutional environment unfortunately.

And one more thing: I know it's hard to understand the things that do not suit your beliefs but there may be people who are upset with independence and may express free will to join some other country. And this country to join may be Russia. If personally you feel negative to Russia it does not matter other people have to be the same. So I ask you to stop behaving like "There are two opinions - my and wrong". But sure you are free to name Crimean people who prefer to join Russia but not live in Ukraine agents of Kremlin agents of Putin and all the pro-Russian rallies organized by Kremlin agents. It is your opinion and I don't take away your right to express it. But at the same time ask not to give away the same right from me and call me troll and person who does not understand everything just because my opinion is countrary to yours.

[scrim 1]

I can't believe that you on the one hand defend invading sovereign European nations, gunning down unarmed demonstrators, attempting to annex considerable parts of European nations, bullying and threatening other countries in the region, and restarting the Cold War, but on the other is offended by being rhetorically asked if you're a troll.

[ProfTournesol 956]

... says a citizen of a country that invaded Russia at least three times in recent 200 years.:D Just facepalm.

Lol, and when was the last time ? Crimean war or ww1 when helping to fight the reds ? You've nothing better ? :rolleyes:

[spooky lynx 73]

Well if you act as a bully and invade half Europe, no wonder you will need shelters.

On the other hand, would you mind developing a bit what were you referring about the "Finnish participation in intervention after 1917 revolution" ( as it's offtopic, you can send me a PM, I'm really curious ).

BTW an interesting tweet:

In Chechenya would be interested I think...

Hm... Did I lost something or half of Europe being in wehrmacht, French, even Swedish and British armies, US army, came to us before we grew enough balls and muscles to bully and invade a half of Europe?

As for Finnish participation - I got it from wiki article, will dig for some more info.

Concidering referendum in Chechnya - I suppose Mr. McCain wrote it during exacerbation of old wounds and diseased... Such referendum had already been performed 11 years ago.:cool:

---------- Post added at 01:14 ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 ----------

I can't believe that you on the one hand defend invading sovereign European nations, gunning down unarmed demonstrators, attempting to annex considerable parts of European nations, bullying and threatening other countries in the region, and restarting the Cold War, but on the other is offended by being rhetorically asked if you're a troll.

I defend realpolitik and thing that are done by any country which has enough strength for it. I call things their names. Why shouldn't we do things that are widely done by others?

Lol, and when was the last time ? Crimean war or ww1 when helping to fight the reds ? You've nothing better ? :rolleyes:

Formally 'helping fighting the reds' is stepping to independent country for sake of helping one of sides in civil war. Thing that was widely condemned in 1979. Or 'helping to fight reds' is more democratic than 'helping to fight greens' and 'what Jupiter may do, the bull may not'?

[ProfTournesol 956]

How many European countries were occupied by Russia in 1945 ?

[scrim 1]

Lynx: Because no other country has done such a thing since the Nazis. Is that a good enough reason not to do it?

What you support isn't realpolitik; It is the perceived right of a stronger, non democratic nation to do whatever its regime wishes with a weaker one democratic nation. At best that is called fascism. A more realistic view is that it is not even one step above how the societies of apes function. Don't sit there and defend flagrant violations of universally recognized human rights unprecedented in modern European history being perpetrated by Russia, and at the same time act surprised and offended that the world almost to a man loathe the Putinist regime. For a country that suffered so much at the hands of fascists during the war, I'm sad to see that less Russians are opposed to what the people claiming to rule in their name are up to.

[mistyronin 1181]

Hm... Did I lost something or half of Europe being in wehrmacht, French, even Swedish and British armies, US army, came to us before we grew enough balls and muscles to bully and invade a half of Europe?

What you said is true, others have been bullies before, but it doesn't absolve Russia for it's recent actions ( historically ). Because someone has committed a crime in the past, doesn't mean you are allowed to commit it.

I think that you'll understand why most of its neighbors don't trust the Russian government and are afraid of a possible attack.

As for Finnish participation - I got it from wiki article, will dig for some more info.

That's an interesting subject that I'd like to know more, any links would be appreciated.

Concidering referendum in Chechnya - I suppose Mr. McCain wrote it during exacerbation of old wounds and diseased... Such referendum had already been performed 11 years ago.:cool:

I'm not sure if it will be considered a truly clean referendum, an objective one with all the basic democratic rights guaranteed.