Ukraine General

[Rydygier 1309]

Why shouldn't we do things that are widely done by others?

Should we do wrong things because we think, others did wrong too? What kind of logic hides behind such thinking? Where it leads? Whatever is wrong, shouldn't be done despite, whatever other are allegedly or actually doing. Realpolitik, yeah, but for what purpose exactly all this realpolitik should be performed? Is it justifies ignoble methods? Why to invade anybody or scheme and intrude causing lots of pain, bloodshed etc. instead of just live in peace caring rather about good of citizens of own country? Why to try to be an expansive empire at all? For what? There is no better things to do?

Edited March 6, 2014 by Rydygier

[Tonci87 163]

I am able to understand that ABM can serve as another serious threat to our counterattack ability.

Counterattack? Why? You got your own ABM, why shouldn´t your neighbours be allowed to have one? On top of that your country even has enough A bombs to kill everyone in Europe. And Europe shouldn´t be allowed to have at least an ABM?

That mentality is so fucked up....

[sudayev 27]

Counterattack? Why? You got your own ABM, why shouldn´t your neighbours be allowed to have one? On top of that your country even has enough A bombs to kill everyone in Europe. And Europe shouldn´t be allowed to have at least an ABM?

That mentality is so fucked up....

The same way we shouldn't tolerate ballistic missiles under our door. Sorry there is no written guarantee that Russia won't use missile against other countries. They will use them in first stage of conflict and a sovereign country has every right to DEFEND itself.

Don't be a fool - this is a language of political correctness when speaking about Iran. Everyone know what missiles from what country NATO shield can intercept. Just like everyone knows who Crimean tourists and armed enthusiasts really are.

It's like...

You know, It's soooo cool to aim my pistol at you and I wont hesitate will blow a fucking hole in your chest. But I'll be angry if you will wear a bulletproof vest and have your own pistol.

That mentality is so fucked up....

Indeed it is :/

I think their are afraid because

1) Surface-To-Air system could be set to Ground-To-Ground mode, (but it's not true)

2) In Russian minds - Missile Shield is viewed as some sort of Doomsday Device that will destroy whole Russia

or

- They want us simply - defenseless against their ballistic missiles. (most likely) Ain't nothing like having an advantage during the offensive

Edited March 6, 2014 by Sudayev

[blu3sman 11]

But now they successfully manage the Crimea - still there's no clashes, takeovers of property, beatings and tortures of those who don't agree with them

Right...

[vilas 477]

i also seen reports about Russians attacking Ukrainians in Crimea and attacking their homes - by cutting electricity wires and so on,

a lot of Putins accusations about danger to Russians found rather danger for Ukrainians, Putin was saying he protect Russians, but from latest reports it seems that Ukrainians are those who should be protected against agressive Russian nationalists ,

for non Ukrainian readers - title of this movie is Kozaks robbed foreign journalists , so attacked person was journalist from other country,

indendent press journalist said that Putin do whatever he can to provoke Ukrainians to violence and than attack Ukraine, cause so far Ukrainians were not making violence against Russians , so Putin is desperately try to ignite such violence to justify himself (cause some percent of his country see his lies , equal or bigger than GW Bush lies in past)

Ukrainian nationalists (although very dangerous cause extreme) know that if they will do anything, they will make bigger harm to their nation it seems also in this region of East Ukr they are almost not present (votes shown on WIKI), they are mostly in west part (rather danger to Poles there)

btw. Ukrainians after those bloody days do not seem to be revengeful, there is zero reports that they are killing or torturing cops who fired, so Ukrainians seem to act much more soft after this than i could expect in such stressful situation and Yanuk corruption, i would expect revenge and such like but seems there is no such actions to my surprise (after all what was written about them)

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/corka-ukrainskiego-polityka-tlumaczy-sie-z-kontrowersyjnego-zdjecia/nyg54

you need google-translate it, she, daughter of Yanuk administration guy, wrote stuff like "meanwhile my daddy is killing people, i eat something"

she and her family live in UK,

it show oligarchy, corruption systems - daddy is opressor in East Europe, children are studying at best Western universities and live there for money from East tax payer

---------

i do not know if it is Russian hackers intel job, but on some Polish websites we have articles that 9-11 was internal CIA job and etc.

Edited March 7, 2014 by vilas

[sabaka 10]

Identity of one of the "crimean enthusiasts" have been revealed - Mr. Arman Dosanov from Saratov, probably Spetcnaz in video carrying vss vintorez.

http://i.imgur.com/cvSuEog.jpg source http://varfolomeev.livejournal.com/

his profile on russian facebook http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

Another "enthusiast" and GRU fan! http://lexizli.livejournal.com/312215.html

Some people have halted an "enthusiast". According to his army id this Alexey Medvedev of the russian army

lol. This is a provocation for the European people aimed to discredit Russia. Firstly military card is always stored in the unit, the soldier physically it can not be. Think why should Russian special forces will come to the job with the military card? For even greater effect, he could slip plan to undermine the Nuclear Power Plant.

[vilas 477]

military ID kept in unit not by person ? sounds ridiculous, always in Poland policeman or military has his duty-ID with him, policeman always has police-ID and shows it when asked and he has to show it, military have "military book" always, i cannot imagine armed personell without ID , otherwise how can you identify if person is military or just actor, ASG or wanna be cheater,

on-duty public serviceman always has ID with him, saying that ID is stored somewhere sounds for me like lie, i cannot imagine policeman sayin "i am from police" on my ask "show ID" he says "ID is in police station 20 km away" , i just cannot imagine such thing

[sudayev 27]

military ID kept in unit not by person ? sounds ridiculous, always in Poland policeman or military has his duty-ID with him, policeman always has police-ID and shows it when asked and he has to show it, military have "military book" always, i cannot imagine armed personell without ID , otherwise how can you identify if person is military or just actor, ASG or wanna be cheater,

on-duty public serviceman always has ID with him, saying that ID is stored somewhere sounds for me like lie, i cannot imagine policeman sayin "i am from police" on my ask "show ID" he says "ID is in police station 20 km away" , i just cannot imagine such thing

provocation for the European people aimed to discredit Russia.

You heard the man vilas... Nevertheless if russian police or army really don't carry their papers, then it must be true what people who drive trucks to Russia say - this is bandit country.

User named "sabaka" (dog in russian) comes to BI studio forums without any hello or in-topic post, dig my post from 15 pages ago and says it's a provocation. Whoever hired you to write bullshit sabaka - buzz off and remove your account.

[vilas 477]

i just cannot imagine that ID is kept away from serviceman on-duty , because they have GAZ Tigr with mounted PKP, it is impossible to buy it in shop,

i doubt that in Russia you can buy fully automatic machinegun in shop, they carry PKP, PKM with attachments etc.

this is not anti-Russia provocation, this is how Putin lies and lies to world , also some BTRs are there, also you can buy APC in shop ?

http://i.imgur.com/bzbuzsF.jpg (150 kB)

also bought in shop by average citizen from his salary ?

---------- Post added at 10:29 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------

to not be one-sided, but to be more objective (although it is hard in situation of Putin behavior)

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/byly-doradca-janukowycza-o-sikorskim-zdradzil/ryz6d

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/oleh-tiahnybok-o-polityce-rosji-ten-plan-byl-szykowany-od-dawna/4cbte

2 interesting articles, although from mainstream media, but anyway , if google-translate not works for you shortening:

- interview with nationalists leader who says that he is grateful to Poland and we should sit at one round table and discuss history, but this interview is not as important to me as comments below are,

one of comments say very wise thing:

"a lot of shares of Russian industry were in hands of businesmen from USA, UK, abroad owners, now after action of Putin shares went down, western investors started to sale shares and... Russians started to buy those shares to get control on companies again to Russian hands" so western investors financed companies and now Russians are taking back shares of those companies cheap

another is interview with ex-Yanuk advisor, he said that plan was :

- not to use snipers,

- arrest people and free them after few days when situation would calm down,

but someone from internal faction caused violence to discredit Yanuk, he says about fight of oligarchs between each other and different factions in Yanuk party, so one faction wanted to discredit Yanuk to get his place but situation went out of controll,

when Yanuk took money from Russia (this big credit about many wrote before) and refused EU-join, than some top rich oligarchs started to conspiracy against him,

Russians here in this topic suggested like West, CIA supported Maidan and organized and etc.

if anyone could do that - it were rather Ukrainian oligarchs (top rich businessmen) who wanted to secure their international business with EU countries without any control from gov. or Russia,

so i would not see here any CIA, i would rather see local greed giving bribes businessmen (oligarchs) who indeed might have interest in anything that can throw away pro-Russian president (cause in Russia authoritarian Putin control oligarchs, in Russia president is ruler, not businessmen, in Ukraine it was opposite, in Poland similar, government follow not will of usual tax payer but will of few top rich businessman who even live abroad f.e. Switzerland and not pay taxes here cause they have companies registered on Cyprus-like countries)

of course he accuses west that west later after this would wish to divide Ukraine (probably he says about taking control on industry, similar to Polish situation in 1989-90)

rich greed guys in many countries make problem to those country citizens (corrupting government and issuing actions of this government against taxpayers) so i do not reject such hypotesis too that some of violence might be supported by few Oligarchs who could influence on some Militia to shoot to people to ignite and fuel the hate, and get rid of Yanuk, maybe they afraid of Russian-like style of government (in Russia you can steal when Puttin allows you, if Putin is against than no money will help you in court) this man doesn't say that Nazis used weapons against people, he says it could be inner-party job of competition in party,

some comments say that Oligarch didn't want to divide profits (from stealing taxes) with Yanuk, and Yanuk wanted to be Oligarch himself stealing tax money, and he was keeping Maidan for many months to raise tension too, cause he planned that he will get money from both Russia and EU and he will personally steal those money,

a lot of Oligarch "suffered" economically on Yanuk government and they lost some dozen percents of their money, so oligarchs were desperate to get rid of Yanuk and steal again alone without his competition so they could finance Maidan or violence (including mercenary snipers shooting anyone to fuel the flame)

in Polish history we had "magnats" , those persons were oligarchs in XVI, XVII, XVIII centuries, they had unimaginable wealth, those people had family connections with different countries nobles, country, patriotism was not existing for them, they led Poland to fall in 1790s cause only thing that magnats care was to have more gold, they didn't want to pay taxes for Royal Army, they prefered to have another crystal mirror in their 124'th room

this could happen in Ukraine, top rich greed evil businessmen seeing that they might loose financialy on Yanuk ruling decided to get rid of him, for them human life is not important at all, when they can have 10 Ferrari or 10 Bentley more, for them such term as "nation" doesn't exist , they see 100 milion dollars more or less, even if 10000 people gonna die, they only care "if we gonna sell coffins or not"

Edited March 7, 2014 by vilas

[Colossus 2]

Now here is an interesting turn of events. Yanukovych has had a heart attack (unian.net), and there's unconfirmed reports that he might be dead. Guessing we'll find out soon enough.

[vilas 477]

Now here is an interesting turn of events. Yanukovych has had a heart attack (unian.net), and there's unconfirmed reports that he might be dead. Guessing we'll find out soon enough.

reminds old joke about Boleslaw Bierut, he was Polish Stalin counterpart, after Kruschov speach condemning stalinism terror in 1956, he visited Moscow and he returned in coffin , for sure many people do not want him to testify, if he would be deported to Ukraine and testify in new Ukraine maybe some dirty things would appear,

another news there from 10:57 - Russia break diplomatic relations with Ukraine

-------

another stuff about Russian propaganda

in 1968 my mother seen Soviets going to Czechoslovakia and those Soviet soldiers were told they go to Germany cause Fascist returned to power, they were not told they go to Czechoslovakia , so it show how propaganda works ,

Edited March 7, 2014 by vilas

[Caselius 94]

Well, there are plenty of bomb shelters in Russia too. Even metro is designed to serve as a shelter. Guess why (no, not because of commies paranoia)? Oh and don't forget Finnish participation in intervention after 1917 revolution.

So, to be honest, who is expansionist? And why do all of you forget your own little sins that were just slightly before the thinks you accuse my country of?

During Finnish Civil War which was fought between Reds and Whites like Russian Civil War, Russians were actively participating in combat activity against Finnish troops on the red-side. After the civil war there was an conflict, which is named "Heimosodat" in Finland (Including Estonian war of independence), the soldiers in those war were purely volunteers.

What about Winter War then? USSR was clearly the expansionist then.

[Amra 10]

Why to remember evil dids to each other? You want to live in peace - live. You want something from us (lands, compensations, whatever) - come and take it.

[mistyronin 1181]

Why to remember evil dids to each other? You want to live in peace - live. You want something from us (lands, compensations, whatever) - come and take it.

I believe that it's hard to live in peace if your big neighbor is always bulling and invading the other minor neighbors.

Specially if part of the population of your bigger neighbor thinks that huge independent parts of other countries are of its property...

[vilas 477]

the same to Ukrainians, they also want to live on their land, but Russian troops entering their administration land

Crimean area was given as compensation for Stalin crimes, if Russia want to take back compensation for crimes of Stalin, than should pay other compensation, as well to others who lost a lot due to Stalin regime

Germany payed for Hitler, Russia refuse to pay for Stalin - makes difference , Poland lost half of pre-WW2 territory because of Stalin regime and was moved to German land,

before WW2 we had 388 000 km2, now we have 312 000 km2, Stalin took from us 76 000 km2, ca 800 000 Poles were deported to Syberia as f.e. slaves in factories (like Hitler did) and during WW2 ca. 80 000 people were killed (NKVD crimes and during transport to Syberia and etc) the same number lost life after war, so ca. 150 000 Poles were killed by Stalin regime + Stalin forbid allies planes to land for refuel on Soviet territory although British aviation wanted to transport weapon to Polish partisans

[arttem 1]

Firstly military card is always stored in the unit, the soldier physically it can not be.

Yes.

P.S. If you want to explain something to people who don't know anything about nuances. Please. Be exact in giving of the facts.

1. The only thing that we can understand looking on the first pages of the military card, is - that soldier realy Russian soldier. Thats all.

2. To understand from what unit he is. What base? What is his speciality in unit? We need to see page 5 of his military card and page 7 if he takes part in combat operation. Nobody wanna to show it to us, why? There is no any photo of that pages. It's so hard to make photos?

3. On the first page we can see that he was born in 1992, so his age must be 22 at now . Also on that page we see info when he received his military card it was in 2010. It's absolutly correct in 2010 he was 18 years old. And as 18 years old guy he must go for compulsory military service by Russian Federation law. Everybody know, period of such service is 1 year. Young man can go home after that (retired from service). So ok. We have guy who was retired from one year service in 2011.

4. On the second page of his military card we can see that his education level is the lowest from all possible levels of education. Only 9 years/classes in primary school. It's ok for 1 year of compulsory military service. But it's not enought to be a contract soldier in Russian army. To sign contract you need full school education (11 years/classes) - minimum! So he can't be a contract soldier. It's absolutly restricted by law and nobody want problems.

What we have in final? We have Russian guy who is very old for compulsory military service. And he can't be a contract soldier because he don't have required education for that.

Without photos of pages 5 and 7 we can say only one thing - yes it's Russian guy. He was a soldier from 2010 to 2011.

* russian solder military card contain 28 pages of different and full info about person and his army service (thats why soldiers don't carry them)

Edited March 7, 2014 by ArtTem

[Amra 10]

the same to Ukrainians, they also want to live on their land, but Russian troops entering their administration land

Crimean area was given as compensation for Stalin crimes, if Russia want to take back compensation for crimes of Stalin, than should pay other compensation, as well to others who lost a lot due to Stalin regime

Germany payed for Hitler, Russia refuse to pay for Stalin - makes difference , Poland lost half of pre-WW2 territory because of Stalin regime and was moved to German land,

before WW2 we had 388 000 km2, now we have 312 000 km2, Stalin took from us 76 000 km2, ca 800 000 Poles were deported to Syberia as f.e. slaves in factories (like Hitler did) and during WW2 ca. 80 000 people were killed (NKVD crimes and during transport to Syberia and etc) the same number lost life after war, so ca. 150 000 Poles were killed by Stalin regime + Stalin forbid allies planes to land for refuel on Soviet territory although British aviation wanted to transport weapon to Polish partisans

My great-grandfather was shot at age of 23 and his wife was send to GULAG for 10 years. Now tell me what do I owe to you?

[vilas 477]

according to newspaper from last news, two Ukrainian teenager girls were gangraped by people in Russian uniforms , local Crimean police refused any action and investigation

[mistyronin 1181]

My great-grandfather was shot at age of 23 and his wife was send to GULAG for 10 years. Now tell me what do I owe to you?

I think that he talks about the Russian Government, which is the subsidiary responsible of the USSR crimes, same as the German Republic is for the past Third Reich crimes.

[Amra 10]

I think that he talks about the Russian Government, which is the subsidiary responsible of the USSR crimes, same as the German Republic is for the past Third Reich crimes.

In June 1998, Boris Yeltsin and Aleksander Kwaśniewski agreed to construct memorial complexes at Katyn and Mednoye, the two NKVD execution sites on Russian soil.

On 4 February 2010 the Prime Minister of Russia, Vladimir Putin, invited his Polish counterpart, Donald Tusk, to attend a Katyn memorial service in April. The visit took place on 7 April 2010, when Tusk and Putin together commemorated the 70th anniversary of the massacre.

Not enough? Than maybe Polish guys would compensate us this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919–1924) first as it happened earlier.

[mistyronin 1181]

In June 1998, Boris Yeltsin and Aleksander Kwaśniewski agreed to construct memorial complexes at Katyn and Mednoye, the two NKVD execution sites on Russian soil.

On 4 February 2010 the Prime Minister of Russia, Vladimir Putin, invited his Polish counterpart, Donald Tusk, to attend a Katyn memorial service in April. The visit took place on 7 April 2010, when Tusk and Putin together commemorated the 70th anniversary of the massacre.

Not enough? Than maybe Polish guys would compensate us this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919–1924) first as it happened earlier.

I'd like to see what the world would said if after WW2, the German Republic build a few statues and a memorial in the polish lands that were still occupied by Germany...

If you compare all the massive killings and occupation with bad conditions in internal camps... I think you are a bit mislead.

[vilas 477]

the background is that Russia not accepted Poland independence after WW1, and the same number of Poles were held or killed in Soviet camps, Russia was not accepting independence of other nations - this was main reason of 1920 war,

Tsar regime enslaved Poland in 1790s, than after WW1 when Poland set as independent state, USSR not accepted , they wanted us to be another republic of USSR, just like with Finish fight for independence , Finland also was under Tsar ocupation

Edited March 7, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

Right...

Wow, those guys behave exactly like fashists would, nice irony right there.

[sudayev 27]

Than maybe Polish guys would compensate us this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_f..._(1919–1924) first as it happened earlier.

It's quite hypocritical for an aggressor to ask for such things. I wonder if the Germans ever requested compensations of millions of their soldiers who where sent to GULAGs for punishment which many of them died from slave work, disease, malnutrition, beatings and executions.

Sorry but we were not an aggressor, we didn't come to USSR to get these people. Secondly there was a both Pol-Rus commission of historical researches and that commission didn't find any sigh of genocide. Soviets were dying mostly because there wasn't enough facilities to house them all, no one expected that there will be so many of them. Camps were overcrowded and it's wasn't hard for the disease to spread.

Thirdly, despite historical explanations and research stating there was no genocide this argument is still used to relativize massacre of Katyn and comparing this act of genocide to a mortality in Polish POW camps for Soviets and thus blaming the Polish for genocide, planned extermination and such things. Use of this argument is constantly used by Russia nationalists and communists.

I don't exactly know, how it looked in Finland but few times I read about Finnish "death camps" for soviets, and there were similar words coming from the mouth of russians.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Sudayev

[comm_yuri 10]

I know it's hard to understand the things that do not suit your beliefs but there may be people who are upset with independence and may express free will to join some other country. And this country to join may be Russia.

wow, this couldn't have been said any better by either Lavrov or Putin. ^^