Ukraine General

[vilas 473]

Yes, disciplined, courageous, faithful to their people and probably amazed by how they are treated by their former friends.

for me it is big surprise, cause after all this nazi, banderas threatening i expected them to slaughter Berkut policemen and such like stuff, so far Ukrainians behave like pacifists which suprises me a lot after all this "they are nazis" propaganda ,

---------- Post added at 01:34 ---------- Previous post was at 23:49 ----------

what a words of Putin's spokesman:

- mediations with Western countries are laughable cause West lost credibility (of course Putin not lost, non Russian paramilitary in Gaz TIGR with PKP and BTR80 are bought in shop, as we know),

- Russia will not be passive when Russians are in danger (so far i only seen beating Ukrainians, foreign journalist and gang rape of 2 Ukrainian teenagers plus detroying houses of Ukrainians reports)

- when those who won on Maidan will come to East they will begin ethinic cleansing,

- new Ukrainian government refuses to Ukrainian people freedom of choice and safety ,

- Crimea is not occupied, it is integration with more credible Russia with bright future,

- countries around Russia are problems (probably all ex-USSR countries are problem for Russia and all ex-Warsaw Pact too, there is problem that they exist at all)

sounds Goebells, isn't it ? reminds Goebells, unles he is not on dope or it is high time to change dealer cause stuff is too hard

Edited March 8, 2014 by vilas

[sudayev 27]

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=pl&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvn24.pl%2Fwiadomosci-ze-swiata%2C2%2Fwadim-tituszko-dal-nazwe-chuliganom-dzis-sam-wsparlby-euromajdan%2C394503.html

A story of Vadim Titushko who became famous when last year he assaulted journalists in fornt of the policemen who did nothing. He realized that he became a tool and also regrets his past actions, admitting that he was paid to beat people. Year after, he feels that supporting Maidan is the right thing.

[spooky lynx 73]

Sorry to upset you guys but yes, you can buy BTR-80.

About 40K Euro, without weapons, scopes and military radios. But still it's BTR-80.

BRDM-2, 19400 Euro, turret removed.

MTLB, about 25000 Euro.

And Ukrainian shop of written-off APCs.

So really you can buy BTR for the price of such cars as BMW X5 or Land Cruiser.

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 ----------

I think thats more of a propaganda tool held over from the cold war...that also explains a lot of youtube comments.

Why Russia is still so fixated on the idea of 'beating america's weapons'? Over here we pretty much are done giving a damn, you have to go looking for military channels for propaganda and we have to pay for those.

I don't know about propaganda but the fact is that still after 1991 due to magical coincidences countries that are friendly to Russia are bombed, labeled as violating human rights (not mentioning that the same violations are in neighbouring US-friendly countries but nobody cares. Example - 'LGBT rights violation' hysteria before Sochi olympics and selling newest weapons such as Typhoon fighters to Saudi Arabia where gays are just executed, selling Leclerk and F-16 block 60 to UAE which isn't gay friendly at all). Rebellion in Russian Caucasus was widely supported by OSCE, European countries until 1999. So we were loved by our dear Western friends only during 1991-1995, when Yeltsin, Kozyrev and other good guys dropped most of foreign bases, relations with allied regimes, betrayed many Russians who suffered mass murders and expulsion from former USSR republics.

(BBC) Ukraine crisis: Armed men 'seize Crimea military base'

In Finland we know it as "Russian style" ( to be a bully because you are bigger and stronger ).

So nothing was sized. Media war at its best.

[mistyronin 1181]

Sorry to upset you guys but yes, you can buy BTR-80.

About 40K Euro, without weapons, scopes and military radios. But still it's BTR-80.

So you are saying that someone, bought a lot of BTRs, refurbished, get hundreds of AK74, PKM, etc. bought hundreds of Russian uniforms, and equipment; hired hundreds of Russian mercenaries, train them, and all of that without anyone noticing?

So nothing was sized. Media war at its best.

In the BBC headlines you could see that seized was between quotation marks, which means that some sort of official or witness told them literally that. If they had checked themselves, there would be no quotation marks. Probably is not the most simple headline to read, and may lead to some confusion to who don't have a good knowledge of how to use the English language.

[comm_yuri 10]

Sorry to upset you guys but yes, you can....

Spooky Lynx, why are you lying to yourself. People are not blind or stupid. Watch the videos I've posted. I don't think you can buy Tigrs, T-90s and BMP-3s on Ukrainian black market.... if you could, we would have probably bought off the entire stock for our own forces .... and how did they manage to paint the BTRs in Russian camouflage and put modernised turrets produced only in Russia, on them so quickly ?

Yes Ukrainians have a LOT of self discipline considering the fact that one of their aerodromes got occupied which has a dozen of Mig-29s stationed there.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[Tonci87 163]

So you are saying that someone, bought a lot of BTRs, refurbished, get hundreds of AK74, PKM, etc. bought hundreds of Russian uniforms, and equipment; hired hundreds of Russian mercenaries, train them, and all of that without anyone noticing?

Jeez, and there I thought that Ukrainians were quite poor and couldn´t afford much. I must have been totally wrong if so many private persons can afford military gear.

[krycek 349]

last minute news - according to press , Sergey Lavrov said to John Kerry that US sanctions will beat America like boomerang

Not saying the US won't be affected(in a lesser extent compared to Europe) but Lavrov is really delusional if he thinks an isolated Russia will have any chance in this economic climate.The ruble is already very weakened and if Russia will threat to cut the natural gas exports it's true Europe will get screwed but so will they without their main piggybank.

So basically the man is bluffing but in this case he doesn't have a poker face.

[vilas 473]

Not saying the US won't be affected(in a lesser extent compared to Europe) but Lavrov is really delusional if he thinks an isolated Russia will have any chance in this economic climate.The ruble is already very weakened and if Russia will threat to cut the natural gas exports it's true Europe will get screwed but so will they without their main piggybank.

So basically the man is bluffing but in this case he doesn't have a poker face.

i know i have tendention to writing loooong posts, and some people not read them cause they are too long and not in native English, but in few posts i was trying to make analysis of economical background of this Ukrainian crisis, according to data told by media of course,

but i wrote once that Putin could already win economically on this action,

western investers invested money in Russia, right? so guys from US business, UK , Germany invested some money in industry of Russia,

they had shares,

when this mess by Russia started shares on stocks went a lot down, right?

west investors started to sale shares, Russian bought them cheap,

so ? so you invested money in Russia thinking about shares profits, and now you lost shares and they gain what you invested so far cheap and now they back to control (shares), something like this was written in Polish media, i do not know if it is true, cause i am not familiar with stock market ,

another thing that Russia gained is meat/pork market, crisis caused Russia to not buy from some EU countries pork meat, now they can renegotiate deals and buy it cheaper , all such conflicts always have behind scene actions as well too, cause we mostly focus on military happenings there, not on background or behind scene actions

[Brisse 78]

Don't worry about threats to cut the gas supply. There is still plenty of oil and gas beneath the North Sea. Europe is not as dependent on Russia as the russians wants us to think.

[scrim 1]

I don't know about propaganda

Cheers, we've all known about that for a while now.

Yes, Russia is indeed rather vulnerable to sanctions. Just the threat of them caused the ruble to sky dive as investors of all kind high tailed it out of Russian banks and companies. Actual, proper economic sanctions, and it'll take a few years at top before it's back to "line around two blocks for one loath of bread" again.

[JdB 151]

Don't worry about threats to cut the gas supply. There is still plenty of oil and gas beneath the North Sea. Europe is not as dependent on Russia as the russians wants us to think.

70% of the Russian export is comprised of oil and gas. 50% of the annual Federal budget comes from exporting these substances. We can get oil from the Middle East and temporarily increase gas production from our own sources. Would Russia be able to sell their oil and gas to another buyer like the Chinese for the same price as they sell it to us? I very much doubt it. With the winter being unusually mild we wouldn't notice the effects until at least autumn 2014. Over 6 months of vastly reduced export will cause budgetary problems for them next year. We can put on an extra sweater if we haven't got enough gas to heat our homes, but the Russians won't have the money for large parts of the operating of their government and country.

Unlike the Russians, most of our export and economic cooperation with Russia consists of investments, production and sales of consumer goods. Russia is looking to seize foreign assets in case of sanctions by western countries. This will make any large company and major economy think twice about investing in Russia (like in Venezuela were the socialist government seized and/or nationalized a lot of multinationals scaring away investors and look where that got them). They'd be shooting themselves in the foot all for a bit of nationalism and the hope of electoral gain for Putin. If our leaders had the guts to implement actual heavy sanctions Putin's scheme would backfire as I doubt the Russians would thank him for their government- and public services being unavailable when they next visit a voting booth.

[Tonci87 163]

I think the most interesting scenario would happen if Turkey would decide to close the Bosporus for russian ships. That would really hurt them! A lot of russian Cargo ships pass the Bosporus every day. The russians might want to be carefull and not opress the Krim Tartars

[spooky lynx 73]

So you are saying that someone, bought a lot of BTRs, refurbished, get hundreds of AK74, PKM, etc. bought hundreds of Russian uniforms, and equipment; hired hundreds of Russian mercenaries, train them, and all of that without anyone noticing?

Seems to be true. Those 'polite men' may partly belong to Black sea fleet. I found no traces of deploying such amount of hardware and troops from Russian side - no transport planes flights, no massive transport ships cruises (though both things may be easily traced nowdays). If we were really able to move rather large amount of troops so quickly and without noticing - all I can say is 'Bravo!' to our army commanders. And if all that troops are belonging to Black sea fleet - then there were no 'invasion' but just relocation of already stationed troops.

Spooky Lynx, why are you lying to yourself. People are not blind or stupid. Watch the videos I've posted. I don't think you can buy Tigrs, T-90s and BMP-3s on Ukrainian black market.... if you could, we would have probably bought off the entire stock for our own forces .... and how did they manage to paint the BTRs in Russian camouflage and put modernised turrets produced only in Russia, on them so quickly ?

Yes Ukrainians have a LOT of self discipline considering the fact that one of their aerodromes got occupied which has a dozen of Mig-29s stationed there.

T-90s and BMPs were depicted at our own territory. All that was seen at Crimea is BTR-80 that may belong to our naval infantry or Tigrs with trucks. Tigrs - you can buy them, but I don't know exactly what are differences between strictly military and available for selling in civilian market. Some buy 'civilized' ones, but I suppose it's possible to buy vehicle close to mil-spec one. Just as with BRDMs or BTR-60/-70/-80, you may buy just disarmed ones or modified for more comfortable civilian use. Oh and you should know that 'russian camo' may be rather different. There are some standards but they are almost never kept.

[scrim 1]

Tonci: They're not allowed to close the Bosporus to commercial shipping in peace time according to the Montreux Convention I'm afraid. However, if the Turks feel like it, they can actually argue their right to deny Russian aircraft carriers entry into the Black sea, thereby forcing them to remain there indefinitely, or not be allowed to return should they leave. Thing is, according the convention, capital ships of Black sea countries may pass unhindered in peace time, but aircraft carriers are not allowed. To bypass this, the Soviets called their aircraft carriers "aircraft carrying cruisers", though that's obviously not the case. So, if the Turks want to, they could cite the convention and call bullshit on the Kremlin's claim that they're not aircraft carriers, and much Russian naval butthurt wouldn ensue.

So you are saying that someone, bought a lot of BTRs, refurbished, get hundreds of AK74, PKM, etc. bought hundreds of Russian uniforms, and equipment; hired hundreds of Russian mercenaries, train them, and all of that without anyone noticing?

Yes, not only that, but remember who it was who said that the Maidan was orchestrated by the EU, and that the Ukrainians couldn't possibly organize trivial details such as distributing soup, or get paramedics organized? Lynx.

So Lynx, care to explain why the people of Kiev are unable to organize soup kitchens, but the "people of the Crimea" can covertly found, equip, train and organize an at least 20.000 military aged male "self defense group" with capabilities such as large scale troop airlifts, besieging government military bases, airfields, ports, and civil institutions? :rolleyes:

Edited March 8, 2014 by scrim

[Tonci87 163]

See? That happens when your own arguments come around and bite you in the ass big time.

[vilas 473]

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/ostrzelano-samolot-na-granicy-ukrainy-i-krymu/qw6n1

at Ukrainian plane was opened fire, noone was hurt, but fire was opened , plus Moldova start to afraid of invasion

http://www.sfora.pl/Rosjanie-wyszli-poza-Krym-Zajmuja-kolejny-obwod-a65448

according to this news, Russians broke Ukrainian border and get into not-Crimean but fully Ukrainian adminsitration area

http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/rosiyski-soldati-uviyshli-v-mistechko-chongar-u-hersonskoyi-oblasti-zmi-338748.html

http://tsn.ua/politika/ozbroyeni-chuzhinci-u-chongari-ne-pustili-v-krim-misiyu-obsye-ale-postupilisya-miscevim-zhitelyam-338682.html

European mission halted

Edited March 8, 2014 by vilas

[comm_yuri 10]

Mate, those "self-declared militia" confirmed their Russian Army identity to local people and Ukrainian soldiers allready days ago. You still arguing about that ? we have direct confirmation from them and you still denie that ?

some intense moment

http://gawker.com/intense-video-shows-pro-russian-troops-firing-on-ukrain-1535979016

[Tonci87 163]

Mate, those "self-declared militia" confirmed their Russian Army identity to local people and Ukrainian soldiers allready days ago. You still arguing about that ? we have direct confirmation from them and you still denie that ?

some intense moment

http://gawker.com/intense-video-shows-pro-russian-troops-firing-on-ukrain-1535979016

Damn, that could have gone very wrong.....

[Beagle 684]

I say NATO must develop a fully operational ABM system to protect their members. I don't understand why Russia is so afraid of it, its pretty common to see Russian newscast about new system that can defeat a NATO system.

Russian armed forces are much stronger than they were 20 years ago but my opinion is that as of now Russia could not endure against NATO in a conventional war. Russian armed forces are much stronger than they were 20 years ago So they need the advantage where they excel. And nobody wants a nuclear war.

Are you sure NATO is still strong?... Germany alone reduced it's cold war fleet or MBT's from ca. 4000 to around 600 and the armed forces manpower from 560.000 to 270.000. Reminder...Germay had the second biggest Army in NATO just right after USA.

[scrim 1]

some intense moment

http://gawker.com/intense-video-shows-pro-russian-troops-firing-on-ukrain-1535979016

For the benefit of anyone who's not watched it, I'll summarize the content below:

"Russians: We have occupied your AFB, we are threatening to shoot you all, we are firing over your heads, we talk about you like you're a bunch of drunken civvies. YOU ARE PROVOKING US!!!!11!!"

[mistyronin 1181]

Any other source? I was trying to find any other news about those events, but found nothing.

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/ostrzelano-samolot-na-granicy-ukrainy-i-krymu/qw6n1

at Ukrainian plane was opened fire, noone was hurt, but fire was opened , plus Moldova start to afraid of invasion

http://www.sfora.pl/Rosjanie-wyszli-poza-Krym-Zajmuja-kolejny-obwod-a65448

according to this news, Russians broke Ukrainian border and get into not-Crimean but fully Ukrainian adminsitration area

http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/rosiyski-soldati-uviyshli-v-mistechko-chongar-u-hersonskoyi-oblasti-zmi-338748.html

http://tsn.ua/politika/ozbroyeni-chuzhinci-u-chongari-ne-pustili-v-krim-misiyu-obsye-ale-postupilisya-miscevim-zhitelyam-338682.html

European mission halted

Edited March 8, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

Any other source? I was trying to find any other news about those events, but found nothing.

i hope Polish press not lie, using Ukrainian press as source ,

or maybe West press keeps silence (due to things i said before - noone rich want to spoil business, media are in corporations' hands, so ... when rich doesn't want, citizens doesn't have info)

so there are 2 possibilities - Polish press lie and Ukrainan press lie, or West press lie/keep silence (maybe it is stupid and harsh example, but about Katyn crime only Nazi Germany press wrote during WW2, Rossvelt or Churchil didn't want to spoil relations with Stalin and Poles knew about Katyn from ... Hitler, when some big US/UK/German corporations do harm also only Putin press write about it as another example of what is press and US/UK/German citizens do not know, and viceversa, when Russians spoil something only US press will write but not Putin and Russians do not know )

but of course there is possibility that Ukrainian press lies, and Polish press translate Ukrainian news without criticism,

information is weapon

Edited March 8, 2014 by vilas

[comm_yuri 10]

Telecommunications in some parts of Ukraine seem to be constantly disrupted, Ukrainians assuming Russian forces behind this. They maybe lost contact to their border checkpoints and are simply fearing to have lost them by Russian takeover. It could be just blind panic and nothing else. On the other hand some days ago I heard reports of Russian armor entering, then leaving Ukraine for no reasons. They should keep a cool head and organize a defense asap. Glad to hear that they at least mobilized parts of their regular army.

http://forextv.com/top-news/ukraines-iron-brigade-readies-for-combat/

Edited March 8, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[ofp_comissar 130]

i hope Polish press not lie, using Ukrainian press as source ,

Just relax. Everybody lie©

I talk yesterday with my aunt with Skype, she live near Poltava,she is a teacher, and have son, my cousin,he 22 years old.

Her price for mounth is 2000 grivn for month, it is around 200$ . After "revolution" even this small value they cant get.

My cousin looking for money and documents for leaving the country, because he afraid of mobilization. He don't want die in the "stupidest war between brother nations, just because one groups of thiefs replace other in Kiev",as he said.

The situations in the regions with "green gentle people" is quiet, but spirit of fear, of course, is exist.

The Ukrainian soldiers sitting in the camps, surrounded by "gentle people", but ,what is so funny, soldiers of both sides still communication for free, trading the cigarettes with each other, and you can often hear the dialogs between Russian and Ukrainian soldier like

-So, when this idiots find some rational, and starting to prove economics, not the political hysteria

-Are you kidding me? In Kremlin sitting such idiots, as yours.

-Just hope for miracle, that all will be solved by peace...

-Do you belive in miracles?

-Usually, not, but when i saw, that Timoshenko suddenly stand up from invalid chain in US embassy, i got some doubt...:D

It all just from my aunt and cousin words. And i do not want make interpritations of it.

I have no god to pray for their lives , because i'm atheist, that's why i sended some money to help him to run. It is more effective, that pray.

[spooky lynx 73]

So Lynx, care to explain why the people of Kiev are unable to organize soup kitchens, but the "people of the Crimea" can covertly found, equip, train and organize an at least 20.000 military aged male "self defense group" with capabilities such as large scale troop airlifts, besieging government military bases, airfields, ports, and civil institutions? :rolleyes:

Neither just people of Kiev nor just people of Crimea can do such things alone, moreover I never said about just people of Crimea, I'm not so naive as you, guys. Or maybe you will point to my words about people of Crimea who created 'self-defence forces'? I'm not sure about them being Russian AF personel only, that's true.

'Self-defence forces' are the answer to 'Pravy sektor' groups, 'eye for an eye'. First were organized with our help, second - with western one. Just like in ole good times. But if during past times such 'rebels' vs 'freedom fighters' situations were on other continents, now it's close to our borders. And do you remember what has happened when US missile launchers appeared in Turkey and Soviet missiles appeared in Cuba? Now it's the same situation. Dick measuring on the other continents may be okay but when it comes too close to border - situation becomes hot.

http://news.liga.net/news/politics/997865-rossiyskie_voyska_iz_kryma_vtorglis_v_khersonskuyu_oblast.htm

Simple google search of the pic make me laugh. So called block-post in Crimea appears to be such in Osetia.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Spooky Lynx