Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

Russian speaking, but not of Russian nationality. Who's citizens are they? Ukraine's.

Imagine if the US invaded any country in which there was rioting just to protect anyone that spoke English, but not citizens of the US. Sounds ridiculous.

Hm... What were official reasons of Grenada invasion?

[Nicholas 5]

Hm... What were official reasons of Grenada invasion?

That was 30 years ago. The reasoning of the US invasion was to protect actual US citizens. Not just those that spoke English.

The Russians claim that they invaded Ukraine to protect the Russian-speaking population, different from actual citizens, yes? Russian speaking does not equal Russian citizenship. Just like English speaking does not equal US citizenship. Different pretext.

But after all, I'm not that familiar with either situation, but that does not mean I can't have an opinion.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Nicholas

[nodunit 397]

Sorry but I won´t download images from a russian page that I don´t know. Don´t you have direct links?

Pictures of two riot vehicles with water cannons, one being a ural charred of its paint and the other..not sure but it has some bullet holes in it, one of them measuring half an inch.

[mistyronin 1181]

That was 30 years ago. The reasoning of the US invasion was to protect actual US citizens. Not just those that spoke English.

Putin is giving Russian passports to Crimeans, same he did in Ossetia, ergo, they are de facto Russian citizens now.

On the other hand, US invaded temporally Grenada. While Russia occupy endlessly Finland's Karelia and Petsamo, Ossetia, etc. Not the same.

Edited March 5, 2014 by MistyRonin
othography

[Nicholas 5]

Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape - RT

The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online.

“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,†Paet said during the conversation.

[Amra 10]

Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape - RT

The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online.

“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,†Paet said during the conversation.

Wow. Just wow.

[Tonci87 163]

Oh come on give me a break. First RT was saying that there were no snipers, then they were saying that only the fashist protesters had snipers on their side, and now this. As if the world didn´t see that the real snipers were wearing police uniforms, that they were together with other police forces. RT has lost absolutely all credibility when it comes to the current Ukraine crysis. They are not to be trusted.

[maddogx 13]

RT has lost absolutely all credibility when it comes to the current Ukraine crysis. They are not to be trusted.

Not that they had any credibility in the first place. RT is basically Russia's global propaganda outlet.

Edited March 5, 2014 by MadDogX
typo

[comm_yuri 10]

Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape - RT

The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online.

“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,†Paet said during the conversation.

BS and really .... RT ? it's like using Fox news as source. You can't be serious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRtU6aR2hIA&hd=1

Edited March 5, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[nodunit 397]

The sniper doesn't have any markings, he just wears police colors and clothing bears similarity to the others, he's actually just a police sympathizer that just so happened to listen to them and follow them around and use their equipment.

[comm_yuri 10]

The sniper doesn't have any markings, he just wears police colors and clothing bears similarity to the others, he's actually just a police sympathizer that just so happened to listen to them and follow them around and use their equipment.

like in the 2nd video too right .... ?

[nodunit 397]

Well..thats just one! I mean he could have uh...bought that velcro strap, yeah yeah, he could have...dangit now I can't take the piss.

In all seriousness though yeah I'm aware it was police, I recall seeing a picture somewhere as well as a black clad sniper with an dragunov or something perched upon a rooftop..if only I could find it again.

[monyetswa 1]

Just thought I would share a fairly neutral Ukrainian source for Live Updates on the events (update every 10 mins or so).

vesti.ua - Chronicle of Events

Its in Russian Language, but easily understandable with google translate or simple browser translators.

So far they have published non-opinionated reports about the events themselves, and always link their sources so you can tell who is trying to indoctrinate you. In my opinion they are the most reliable source of un-biased info at this point.

[mistyronin 1181]

Not that they had any credibility in the first place. RT is basically Russia's global propaganda outlet.

Oh come on! If yesterday RT had an outstanding neutral article of how the EU was practically a bunch of dysfunctional third world countries... Thank God we have Russia and Putin to save the day :rolleyes:

Just read the ending...

If Europe is to recover its lost economic prestige, it must acknowledge the failure of corporate socialism and move forward. Growth and innovation must be encouraged from the bottom up. That probably means dismantling the EU back to a simple free trade zone, empowering individual creative enterprise while spiking the menace of the far left/right extremists with their vile racist protectionist pandering.

Given how rapidly the EU demands others enact ‘democracy’ and ‘European standards’ of human rights, it is an act of breathtaking hubris to see how poorly Brussels is treating its own citizens in this ongoing economic disaster. Europe’s tragic lost decade remains on track to deliver its citizenry penury over prosperity.

Edited March 5, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Nicholas 5]

BS and really .... RT ? it's like using Fox news as source. You can't be serious.

Just because I have posted it does NOT mean that I believe it. I just enjoy reading all these headlines from all around the globe about the situation.

As I had posted earlier, I get pretty much all of my news from Google News. Google News is unbiased and shows multiple sources. Here is an example of an article:

As you can see, it has links to news sources "From Russia", "From Ukraine", or "In Depth". It also has all those pictures on the bottom that link to a bunch of other news sites about that particular article.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Nicholas

[comm_yuri 10]

also interesting. Russians seem to be deploying mostly their more sophisticated hardware. I got to admit it's surprising and also suspicious how quickly they were able to deploy such numbers of troops and equipment that flexible into Crimea and at the border. Of course I know that most of the Russian Armed Forces are deployed to the West, but still, something like this takes a lot of preperation and time .... it stinks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG0PD-0AH0s#t=133&hd=1

Edited March 5, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[monyetswa 1]

I got to admit it's surprising and also suspicious how quickly they were able to deploy such numbers of troops and equipment that flexible into Crimea and at the border.

Having bases there already with ~20k+ troops stationed at them sort of helps out the deployment process.

[vilas 473]

Exactly. Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait for their oil. He had plans to invade Saudi Arabia

Kuwait was country established by colonialists which was torn apart from Persia (predecessor of Iraq) so it was Iraqi by history

Saudi Arabia ? if anyone says about "freedom" and "human right" than Saudi Arabia is last place (after North Korea ) where human rights and freedom exists, if USA want to bomb Iran for breaking human rights and lack of freedom, first to bomb is Saudi Arabia, the most islamist and medival state of the world, i even found that in Iran there is metal band or rock music band, in Saudi Arabia they would have throat cut for listening to such music, when woman is raped in Saudi Arabia than she goes to prison, not rapist,

America didn't invade Iraq for oil.

America is ridiculous and as full of hypocrisy as Russia , when i read something like this ... o my god "weapons of mass destruction" imagined by CIA

Saddam wanted to change USD for EURO and get payment for oil in Gold, so Federal Reserve Bank decided to destroy him because he wanted Euros for oil, like Quadaffi, this was the same scheme, Quadaffi also wanted replace US dollar, so rich greed guys from Federal Reserve Bank decided to pull him off,

in situation when FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY of poor is at danger BUT there is NO oil , USA doesn't give a f*

it is now clearly visible for all minor Slavic nations (as Poles, Czechs, Bulgarians, all former Yugoslavia nations, Ukrainians), "west" react only when there is deal to deal and profit to get,

when there is FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY but for poor people without "oil", they not react, they say it is not their cause , in Africa over milion people lost life in Rwanda Tootsie vs Hootoo tribes war and genocide in 96

but Ukraine has good quality soil, they are breadbasket of Europe, so when Russia will control Ukraine, Russia will put hand on food production send to China so Russia will be important for China <this is the reason why Putin doesn't allow Ukrainians to choose their way of life, Putin is simply greed like George Bush (oil corporations owner) was

the worst is that Slavic nations are so conflicted within, if we Slavic were standing as one front... shame, Slavic people should keep together, not fight with each other, Russians should put off Putin (cause he is a liar saying that those are not Russian troops, although even car GAZ Tigr show it clearly), Ukrainian nationalists should understand that their enemy is not another Slavic nation (unless they are such morons, than they will not understand) but whether Russians can put off those who believe they must show power cause they are stronger ?

Sudayev

Just an empty threat which can cost - loosing all trust and credibility, isolation.

A few moves here, few moves there and their stock market will collapse and rubel will become flat. This is very powerful solution yet RUssia is a buffer country to other Asian countries and such economic movements may also destabilize them as well.

not at all,

Rubel will not collapse, they will have China as main partner, China has produce manpower and now know-how and Russia has all natural resources you can imagine, rather EU and US will suffer on it economically (whom you will sell all those Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Whirlpool, Siemens, AEG, Olympus, products ? than Russian GAZ, UAZ, VAZ will be back on track producing lots of cars, electronic etc.)

if they will nationalize and confiscate US or EU property, Russia will have a lot of profits

thats why you have again what you had in 1939

"strong autoristic gov. of one country invades other country and rest only send condamnation words"

if Russia would stop gas export, West will have problem, spring is comming, but if they cut gas during -10 degrees in January , you know what it would be, Europe would be frozen,

if Slavic nations cannot unite (nationalist issues stopping unity), than we should stronger unite with West (but on equal rules, not on rules "we have BMW 7, you clean our street" because it is impossible to stand such conditions like now that we are just cheap labour, we want BMW7 too),

in future we here would have to pay more and more and more BUT the same time we gonna produce less and less - which might be end of our civilisation (European XX c) because we will be too poor (social benefits will eat butget, lack of industry and production cause all is Made in China)

so Russian leader knows about it and probably chosen that doing business with India and China is for him the best, than he produce and sell food they need (to China), they produce consumer goods for him (China) or buy his weapons (India)

we live here, and in our best interest it is to live in best place, not in worst , so we must build our European economy to stand in eventual hipotetical conflict with other civilisation/side in ca. 2030, 2040 (in future possible conflict with world of Islam, in future possible conflict of China against the world cause China is superpower and i do not belive they will be just producer of goods in their borders for years, they would need place to live and new territories and resources cause their citizens getting more rich are buying consumer products and need energy and fuel )

united loving world is naive fairytale, because those who are poor always hate those who are rich and want to be rich too, and those who are strong always want to enslave those who are weak to work for them for cheap, because such is human nature , jealousy or will for rule is natural instinct,

we must do what we can to be strong ourselves , strong in economy, easygoing lifestyle, security (social security too and military security), in past Europe gave know-how and technology - and it was biggest mistake cause we lost our main advantage, and in future this will revenge on us, because for our lifestyle and fun we must have money and resources, for our peace of mind we must have military which stands for it and secure it and can smash anyone who stres us, so we can have party and peace of mind, we must be better than competitors or destroy those who are better,

USA' people have their good cars, Russia has a lot of resources and getting rich , West Europeans have their BMW7, now we Slavic nations (those not Russian) must figure something out that we also would have this BMW7 without working 25 h/day, Ukraine is now on crossroad, what to do, to be with Russia, to be with EU, to maybe choose third way (but than nationalizm against Poles must be pushed off cause then in third way Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania are main partners, small poor countries which want to be rich and powerful in future),

---------

regarding tape:

- first we need to know if it is not FAKE made by Russian intel or other intel which want to discredite Ukrainian natiomalists (Mosad for example capable to do such actions in past to fight Lebanon or Palestinians) but rather Russian intel fabricated cause if Russia claims guys in newest GAZ Tiger M with PKM mounted are not RUssian army...

- last night on the internet someone wrote that Yanuk is dead and had stroke, as we know it was fake news, such news can go around globe in 1 minute ,

- if it is true and not fake, than well... nazis did it ? to ignite war ? if not nazis (which are capable of many actions) than who ? cause as i understand such action is to ignite riots and war,

if not nazis than someone who want civil war ? someone who hated Yanuk and is not honest, Timoshenko ? one oligarch ? if tape is true than maybe one mentally ill nazi ordered such action to start civil war and fuel the hate, but this can be investigated i believe,

would be good if Ashton herself proove it was her on that tape, question to verify autenticity of that tape should go to mrs. Ashton

regarding Russian media credibility : sometimes they lie , sometimes not, like other media, about Ukraine they lied many times, in their media there were infos about Maidan protesters slaughtering and mutilating Berkut policemen , but for example when one or second US corporation do something bad you will not hear about it anywhere else than Russian or Arab media, when Israel will commit action against rules, only Arab media will say,

so i do not discredit them in 100%, i believe that reading many media give good view, reading both sides of conflict (no matter that economy orders me to stand by one side due to Russia making problems to my economy ) but no matter that i dislike Putin, i prefere to hear 2 sides, and i know that people hungry for money and power are capable of kill their own brother

from friends in police or court i know how many crimes are within family, so why not shoot your own countrymen to get to power (be in government) if nazi have very low voting rate and wanted to ignite war, they could do action,

as well as it is possible that someone who want to discredit nationalists payed money to sniper saying that it is ordered by nationalists,

after several years in court nothing will suprise me, i have seen so much strange cases and so much harm betwen family members that i can believe in many hipotesis and not discredit any information source (except obvious lies which not-blind can see like those "non-Russian soldiers" with GAZ TigrM produced only for Russian army orders )

whole world heard about "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraqi war, in 1939 before attack of Hitler on Poland, Hitler agents attacked German station in city Glivitz , than Hitler said that Poland attacked Germany,

The sniper doesn't have any markings, he just wears police colors and clothing bears similarity to the others, he's actually just a police sympathizer that just so happened to listen to them and follow them around and use their equipment.

oh no, do you believe that any non-Police personel can stand along with police with weapon and with that kind of weapon ? :O

try to take sniper weapon, go to police during riots, wish you luck,

if he doesn't have any markings it mean he can be hired from army, from intel, from different entity of government, not a private person playing sniper, be serious, how old are you to believe that civilian sniper-wannabe get sniper rifle from policmen during dangerous situation, this guy can be from intel, secret police etc. so he has no markings,

-----------

. it stinks

Comm, what you think about theory which i said before about breabasket of China , does it have any sense?

Edited March 5, 2014 by vilas

[nodunit 397]

To be fair, from what I'm seeing in various images is that both sides had at least one marksman.

also interesting. Russians seem to be deploying mostly their more sophisticated hardware. I got to admit it's surprising and also suspicious how quickly they were able to deploy such numbers of troops and equipment that flexible into Crimea and at the border. Of course I know that most of the Russian Armed Forces are deployed to the West, but still, something like this takes a lot of preperation and time .... it stinks

Huh...the type 90's seem a bit excessive, I wonder if this is in response to the Ukrainian soldiers not surrendering...although doesn't going into a country and demanding their military surrender, then bringing in heavy hardware to take them out seem a bit.....invasion..ish?

Edited March 5, 2014 by NodUnit

[vilas 473]

To be fair, from what I'm seeing in various images is that both sides had at least one marksman.

maybe one policeman changed side - if person would get order to shoot to his family members do you believe he would not go to opposite side ? if someone sworn to serve country, nation. security and now someone corrupted orders him to shoot to family members will moral and not corrupted person will follow such order ? i believe some cops might change front seeing orders against conscience /morality and knowing what is oligarchy and corruption,

Maidan stood against oligarchy system too, some policemen might be angry on oligarchy too (if you read about for example about "traffic rule exemptions" when rich guy was simply buying for money right to break traffic rules, which also happens in Russia when rich guys sometimes get blue light for their private car, while in every civilized country blue light is for police and ambulance and firefighters vehicles only )

Edited March 5, 2014 by vilas

[nodunit 397]

It's hard to say, I have no doubt several officers would have walked away. I think the rifle in this particular photo is more of a hunting rifle..however anyone who is well seasoned in hunting can in theory be a good marskman.

http://i.imgur.com/QS1iQN8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oFOeipK.jpg

http://www.unframe.com/unframe-cms/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/20140218-deadly-crackdown-kiev-046.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XznIPi1.jpg officer?

For all we know the photo's could also be staged for the press...I doubt it but I wouldn't put it past some media's to do it, the whole thing is too damn convoluted when third parties come in.

I don't know why new focus is on the snipers. Why focus on the one aspect when there is the broad topic of how the militia was armed with slingshots, rocks, small self defense handguns, wooden shields, ski equipment, biker helmets and hard hats, their deadliest weapon being malotov versus; shotguns, steel shields, riot armor and grenades.

Edited March 5, 2014 by NodUnit

[hellfire257 3]

Is there any hope for a peaceful resolution here?

[Nicholas 5]

It's hard to say, I have no doubt several officers would have walked away. I think the rifle in this particular photo is more of a hunting rifle..however anyone who is well seasoned in hunting can in theory be a good marskman.

http://i.imgur.com/QS1iQN8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oFOeipK.jpg

The first two look like BB guns I had as a child. Daisy Model 880

Edited March 5, 2014 by Nicholas

[nodunit 397]

The first two look like BB guns I had as a child. Daisy Model 880

Well the resemblence is uncanny..talk about using everything you've got on hand.

Is there any hope for a peaceful resolution here?

Probably not, no, outside of politicians somehow..doing whatever it is they do. The west is just going to write angry letters (for russian relations I guess, for some reason we've been trying to be their friend rather than acquaintance) and if we flex military muscle it would either lead to a game of chicken which could result in a stalemate of both sides sitting there http://nationalinterest.org/files/imagecache/resize-340/images/checkpoint_charlie_standoff.jpg ooor escalate further and the US and Russia rekindle their past hardships and no good could come of that.

Edited March 5, 2014 by NodUnit

[Nicholas 5]

Well the resemblence is uncanny..talk about using everything you've got on hand.

At least to me, that's sure what it looks like. I can't imagine what kind of caliber bullet would fit into that small of a hole with that small of a bolt on the side. I'm pretty sure it's a BB gun.

Here's a comparison image with mine (Taken a few seconds ago):

I took the scope off of mine years ago.