Not so fast...

[[aps]gnat 28]

..... but I wouldn't be surprised to see a large number of communities, scripters, mappers and modders etc sitting on their creation because they don't want their ideas ripped off by someone else.

Instead of a flood of cool stuff to play you may end up with a vacuum of content until this contest is over.

Agree. Certainly feel a good portion of makers will silently work on something, hoping to succeed by the closing next year.

Raises many questions I'm sure. Like;

X asks for (public) help to solve a problem. Y offers to help, spends 10 days back and forth working it out for X, gives it back to X. 12 months later it turns out X submitted it to competition and Y's contribution was a key feature.

Is it OK? Is Y is entitles to remuneration if X's project wins a prize?

Should X declare he/she is working on a Competition project when asking for assistance?

I'm not sure this contest is going to have the desired effect.

Yes. Large dollars, seemingly TOO large for a largely rag-tag community.

But, then again, DayZ stand-alone just made several $MM in little more than 48 hours ........... !

Every chance the prize will attract new, very professional start-ups, fast-tracking their learning of the engine and editing tools.

Instead of stepping out on their own, seasoned scripters and/or addon makers could make a quick buck sub-contracting to these start-ups ......

[bvrettski 10]

Yes, so where is the issue?

The issue is the current lack of content in the game. My community has 20+ people that bought Arma 3 and were playing daily...... all but two of us have stopped playing. We burned out on it after bugs, poor performance, lack of content and only a handful of p vs p missions that were playable. The majority of the multiplayer, which is what we bought it for, are remakes of games we already played in Arma 2. BI doesn't put the time, resources or money into actually providing multiplayer and as a result Arma 3 is not a full game in my opinion. Its a combat sim, game maker.

Fast forward to the contest. At first I was excited about the prospect then I started to think about it. The vacuum we are talking about has the potential to put the game on the shelf for at least a year while all the would be mission designers sit on their creations.

Lets not fool ourselves here. BI is looking to sell more games and fill in the content they don't have or can't produce themselves. Of course they want the next Dayz. They sold millions of copies(vs tens of thousands) of Arma 2 when DayZ broke out. I'm pretty sure they could care less if the contest winner ever became the next DayZ Standalone. They just want to put A3 back on the radar screen on the backs of somebody else who came up with a good idea.

In my opinion, all they are saying is, " Hey we can't come up with a great multiplayer game but if you can great." "Here, use our stuff, enter the contest, but once you submit it we own the rights to it."

I'm doing a lot of guessing as to how this contest will work and the devil will be in the details but I'm not sure how I feel about it at this point.

I guess everyone has to decide for themselves.

PS @ "ProGamer" When I can carry a 600 lb engine block in my backpack that aint realism brother...

Edited December 18, 2013 by Bvrettski

[PuFu 4591]

The issue is the current lack of content in the game. My community has 20+ people that bought Arma 3 and were playing daily...... all but two of us have stopped playing. We burned out on it after bugs, poor performance, lack of content and only a handful of p vs p missions that were playable. The majority of the multiplayer, which is what we bought it for, are remakes of games we already played in Arma 2. BI doesn't put the time, resources or money into actually providing multiplayer and as a result Arma 3 is not a full game in my opinion. Its a combat sim, game maker.

fair enough, A3 is in a poor condition. but what does this has to do with this particular contest?

Fast forward to the contest. At first I was excited about the prospect then I started to think about it. The vacuum we are talking about has the potential to put the game on the shelf for at least a year while all the would be mission designers sit on their creations.

You can always take the role of the "would be mission designers", no?

Lets not fool ourselves here. BI is looking to sell more games and fill in the content they don't have or can't produce themselves. Of course they want the next Dayz. They sold millions of copies(vs tens of thousands) of Arma 2 when DayZ broke out. I'm pretty sure they could care less if the contest winner ever became the next DayZ Standalone. They just want to put A3 back on the radar screen on the backs of somebody else who came up with a good idea.

Yes, and where is the wrong in that?

In my opinion, all they are saying is, " Hey we can't come up with a great multiplayer game but if you can great." "Here, use our stuff, enter the contest, but once you submit it we own the rights to it."

It has been said already that this isn't the case (official answer in the announcement thread) regarding the IP rights.

I'm doing a lot of guessing as to how this contest will work and the devil will be in the details but I'm not sure how I feel about it at this point.

I guess everyone has to decide for themselves.

Yes, there is a lot of assumptions that shouldn't be taken as facts

[Polygon 11]

All OPs remarks are based on assumptions and basic human logic, desires. There's really no need to think that way, as of now.

However, I don't get it why there's only 50k euro prize for total modification. There's many of them and multiple should be awarded approx. for an effort.

Unless there's a mod already in development for A3, was destined to become a standalone DLC before getting canned and, seemingly, BIS puts the money afront to make sure that DLC's investors become interested again.

Some serious assumptions, though.

[Sealife 22]

More Major mods have come out since the competition anouncement than before it

conclusion : threads point is moot

the competition has neither stalled already anticipated mods and moreover has allowed several non predicted additional mods to be released due to the amount of data released for the competition.

[bvrettski 10]

More Major mods have come out since the competition anouncement than before it conclusion : threads point is moot .

They were already in development and ready to be released. You can't even estimate whats going to happen in the coming year. Neither can I.

---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 AM ----------

fair enough, A3 is in a poor condition. but what does this has to do with this particular contest?

Little content now and possibly less content due to the contest. Pretty simple really.

You can always take the role of the "would be mission designers", no?

Nope. I have no ability to code and the tools are not simple enough (or robust enough) for me to do a mission the way it needs to be done. Additionally, the multiplayer performance in A3 stinks. Until they fix it I'm not sure I want to waste my time.

Yes, and where is the wrong in that?

Absolutely nothing. I just wish BI would put out a full game rather than resort to a contest. Take the money. Hire more developers and finish the full game.

It has been said already that this isn't the case (official answer in the announcement thread) regarding the IP rights.

I would like to read it if you can post a link. Thanks

Yes, there is a lot of assumptions that shouldn't be taken as facts

I never said they were facts. This is a discussion and I'm simply adding my opinions and concerns, not trying to win a debate.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Bvrettski

[Sealife 22]

They were already in development and ready to be released. You can't even estimate whats going to happen in the coming year. Neither can I.

exactly and yet they still released , they didnt hold back and again i repeat mods that were not even anounced have released post anouncement , Editing forums are full of questions and answer ,armaholic full of releases , greater than post competition. , so the points are moot

the evidence is there , everything else is unanswerable speculation with little point.

[nuxil 2]

yes mods get released all the time. some of them mods where in final development or ports/updates from arma2 mods.

and many of them dosent fit catogories for the contest so it makes final sense to release them.

one thing i fear it is that, many good scripters,mission makers will not release their sp missions/campain or mp missions/mode because they have a good framework they been working on and want to enter the contest using it in if fare of others using it/take ideas from it. they avoid releasing it.

even just 50.000 is a shit load of money for few guys.

so what does this mean, can it be that we'll get more shit sp/mp mission by new users?

*users who got an idea, put together a mission in 2 hour and used 1,5 of them making a mission picture. :p

*users who dont want to compete with the veterans ("elite").

well, really you'll just see less of quality ones, so in a way yes to that.

good/experianced scripters devote their time to the contest instead now.

how does that affect me & you? you get to play less quality missions & mods while the contest are in progress.

same goes for mod makers.

(mod maker A) asks (mod maker B) how to do X in his mod. (mod maker B) says: "IDK. dont think its possible, While he works silently on X"

this is all speculation but one might ask. will this contest have the desired effect.

hopefully it'll raise the quality on mods.

im not against this contest, just a bit sceptical on and how its organized

but i do really hope the effect will be more quality stuff as a end result.

there is lots of crap out there.

Edited December 19, 2013 by nuxil

[PuFu 4591]

They were already in development and ready to be released. You can't even estimate whats going to happen in the coming year. Neither can I.

Little content now and possibly less content due to the contest. Pretty simple really.

It's been less and less content since OFP. The more time consuming and more "professional" things gets, the less people are gonna release something. Furthermore, the less up to date the documentation is, the more complicated simple things are to achieve with BI tools, the more frustration it will lead to...

Nope. I have no ability to code and the tools are not simple enough (or robust enough) for me to do a mission the way it needs to be done. Additionally, the multiplayer performance in A3 stinks. Until they fix it I'm not sure I want to waste my time.

If A3 MP stinks, and you find the tools too complicated, why would you expect others NOT to take the same stance...Because it seems you want those misguided lads to keep providing scenarios and content for you...

Absolutely nothing. I just wish BI would put out a full game rather than resort to a contest. Take the money. Hire more developers and finish the full game.

One has nothing to do with another...don't get why that is hard to grasp..

I would like to read it if you can post a link. Thanks

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?169584-make-ARMA-not-war-contest&p=2571887&viewfull=1#post2571887

I never said they were facts. This is a discussion and I'm simply adding my opinions and concerns, not trying to win a debate.

Very nice. I always like a good debate...

yes mods get released all the time. some of them mods where in final development or ports/updates from arma2 mods.

and many of them dosent fit catogories for the contest so it makes final sense to release them.

one thing i fare it is that, many good scripters,mission makers will not release their sp missions/campain or mp missions/mode because they have a good framework they been working on and want to enter the contest using it in if fare of others using it/take ideas from it. they avoid releasing it.

even just 50.000 is a shit load of money for few guys.

so what does this mean, can it be that we'll get more shit sp/mp mission by new users?

*users who got an idea, put together a mission in 2 hour and used 1,5 of them making a mission picture. :p

*users who dont want to compete with the veterans ("elite").

well, really you'll just see less of quality ones, so in a way yes to that.

good/experianced scripters devote their time to the contest instead now.

how does that affect me & you? you get to play less quality missions & mods while the contest are in progress.

same goes for mod makers.

It is a bit...obtuse tbh.

And when i play (rarely these days), i always play on private servers, with custom missions than are custom made and never publicly released.

(mod maker A) asks (mod maker B) how to do X in his mod. (mod maker B) says: "IDK. dont think its possible, While he works silently on X"

this is all speculation but one might ask. will this contest have the desired effect.

hopefully it'll raise the quality on mods.

im not against this contest, just a bit sceptical on and how its organized

but i do really hope the effect will be more quality stuff as a end result.

there is lots of crap out there.

Again, a lot of speculation. The mod maker skype channel is full of questions and answers, and so is editing forums. From where i am standing, as a mod maker, things are not that bad as you make them sound. Oh, and i will take part if my real life work allows it, but obviously not with RHS.

[zapat 55]

Do you guys really think that it is THAT easy to stole an idea, design and code it in contest-wining-quality in a couple of months?

If someone can pull this off, he deserves to win. If someone comes and understands all my code/framework and is able to build better result on that than I can, he deserves to win.

If taking a minor script from me is what he needs to win instead of me, then I don't deserve to win.

So how do you really think that this stealing-my-mission/mod-and-win-instead-of-me work?

I've been working on my dynamic SP scenario for more than 3 years now, and it is not yet ready to show. The contest just makes me work harder and give better quality. But I am not afraid of giving away my code. Sometimes even I don't understand parts of it. :)

Edited December 19, 2013 by zapat

[nuxil 2]

Very nice. I always like a good debate...

...

Again, a lot of speculation. The mod maker skype channel is full of questions and answers, and so is editing forums. From where i am standing, as a mod maker, things are not that bad as you make them sound...

this is all speculation ...

yeah..see im speculating too :)

and dont assume everyone is using skype.

oh and i did not intend it to make it sound bad.

i only said that i fear what will become of this.

one thing i fear it is that, many good ...

...

same goes for mod makers.

and i dont hope it will be this bad either.

[das attorney 857]

I've been working on my dynamic SP scenario for more than 3 years now, and it is not yet ready to show. The contest just makes me work harder and give better quality. But I am not afraid of giving away my code. Sometimes even I don't understand parts of it. :)

That's kind of where I'm at right now. I started work on an MP scenario a few months ago and was going to release it anyway, but then this competition came along, and I thought I'd like to enter.

In some ways it will be shitter than it would have been, as now I can't use some of the awesome script packages that exist in the Arma community, but in other ways that's cool as now I have to write my own stuff which is the whole reason I got into modding anyway. Some of my code might be better suited, some might be worse. Who knows?

As you mentioned though, this means I won't make the full code public until it's ready, but I will always try and help new scripters in need with any relevant snippets. Never forget your roots, as my old man used to say :)

[Make Love Not War 10]

Gnat;2581430']

X asks for (public) help to solve a problem. Y offers to help' date=' spends 10 days back and forth working it out for X, gives it back to X. 12 months later it turns out X submitted it to competition and Y's contribution was a key feature. Is it OK? [/quote']

If X doesn't offer Y any equity share in the winnings, then no.

Gnat;2581430']

Is Y is entitles to remuneration if X's project wins a prize?.

I'd say yes' date=' but entitlement doesn't mean much if the X refuses to share. Then X's only real recourse is to hire a lawyer and sue. Don't see BIS adjucating any such disputes; they'd be fools to do so as it would put liability on them.

Gnat;2581430']

Should X declare he/she is working on a Competition project when asking for assistance?

What if X only started working on his contest entry after he got the help? Or maybe he didn't expect to use Y's solution in his entry, but then ended up doing so anyway? We can't expect X to be omniscient either.

Gnat;2581430']

Every chance the prize will attract new' date=' very professional start-ups, fast-tracking their learning of the engine and editing tools. Instead of stepping out on their own, seasoned scripters and/or addon makers could make a quick buck sub-contracting to these start-ups ......[/quote']

Yes, I expect to see quite a bit of that, and I expect the actual, official contest winners to be one of these outsider start-ups that has almost no affiliation to these forums, works independently and seemingly delivers out of left field. They'll probably also be somewhere out of Eastern or Southern Europe. Either way, I think we'll probably see less interesting and innovative mods from the community for at least the duration of the contest. Even those who aren't entering will probably keep more things under wraps simply because they don't want to deal with any potential fallout from the kind of scenarios you've describing above. Who wants to be involved in lawyer driven drama bombs if they can avoid it?

[zooloo75 833]

To the whole X helps Y, and that help causes Y to win the contest issue can be resolved by only allowing people that know what they're doing participate; A requirement should be that all work is yours and made from scratch, nothing pre-made. If someone does want to use someone else's work, then the other person must agree with it and would have to be fine with the idea that his work could win someone else a large sum of money.

After all, I don't see a category for "Who can combine as many community scripts as possible?"! :rolleyes:

It should be a test of your own experience.

[Ezcoo 47]

I see it like this: if you have to worry about the others stealing your work, you're not competing for the top prizes anyway. I think that the prizes (and thus the level of attention from participants) are so high that the winning entities will simply be so good that even if they published their work in early stage, the competitors would not be able compete them with their concepts.

[Ezcoo 47]

I thought I'd correct myself; I feel that my post above is negative and/or impolite which isn't something what I meant.

I hope that the competitors would use their energy to enhance their entries instead of fighting and/or being overprotective of their work. For example, if you think that some entry might be using your concepts, I wouldn't care that, because I think that it shows that they're not "threat" to you; if they have to copy-paste something in order to compete, they will be screwed anyway! So don't worry about it but just keep enhancing your entry. If you get angry, turn the energy from rage into positive form like "I'll/We'll show them!", something that makes you go forward - and win. Not necessarily, but more likely, in the competition, but also in life in general.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Ezcoo

[almanzo 144]

I'm not worried, I think this contest will do heaps of good for the community, and hopefully it will attract both a bit of press, and some talent. It might gain people unfamiliar to the franchise into it to compete, or even bring back some of the good old veterans from the old days. The best thing about it though, is how it sends a message!

ARMA is great mostly because of mods. Big companies like EA and others are woshing modding away, leaving it in the shaddows. EA punishes people who mod for their games... I can't think of a better way of encouraging people to code, script and sculpt than a contest like this. Bohemia is contributing into recruiting more talent into the industry, and are pretty much alone in doing so. I wish with every bone in my body that something big will spawn out of this. BI deserves way more attention than they are for taking the untraditional route they are taking.

[Make Love Not War 10]

Reading this and the other threads on this topic, it's pretty clear who has and hasn't had to compete and fend for themselves out in the real world.

[bvrettski 10]

I'm just not sure I want to dedicate the time and effort of our community to improve a game that is partially done, partially broken, lacks content until BIS actually fixes it.

If you really want this game fixed then insist that BI do their job before doing their job for them.

[doln 10]

Personally I'm not entering the competition to "Improve the game because it's only partially done", I'm entering it because I enjoy creating content for Arma 3, and getting a job at Bohemia (or the cash prize) as a result of making something special would be pretty neat. I imagine other content creators think in a similar way. You are thinking about this the wrong way.

[disco.modder 116]

Its amazing what money does to things...

[disco.modder 116]

I'm just not sure I want to dedicate the time and effort of our community to improve a game that is partially done, partially broken, lacks content until BIS actually fixes it.

If you really want this game fixed then insist that BI do their job before doing their job for them.

Personally I'm not entering the competition to "Improve the game because it's only partially done", I'm entering it because I enjoy creating content for Arma 3, and getting a job at Bohemia (or the cash prize) as a result of making something special would be pretty neat. I imagine other content creators think in a similar way. You are thinking about this the wrong way.

Ive just noticed that Bvrettski received an infraction for expressing his mind, and I must say that I do agree with the point he's trying to get to: A3 isnt a finished/complete game yet. If it is, why would BI still be adding so called "reinforcement packs" with new units/models in new patches? Did such a thing ever happened in A2? If I recall correctly, no. Patches in A2 came out to fix bugs and glitches, which are understandable. Yes A2 was first full of bugs, but atleast it had heaps more content at launch than A3 and it stayed that away until an Expansion came out bringing a new theater of war and lots of new content. Now the point Im trying to get is, why couldnt BI do the same thing as they did for A2 in A3? Why couldnt A3 be released at a point where "reinforcement packs" and "episodical release Campaign" is unnecessary? The company did it with its previous game, why couldnt they do it with their sequel? The thing is, have you ever always had to make a choice between playing A2 or A3 because of the lack of content? And how often do you lead back to A2:CO because it has much more content available, even just the base vanilla game without counting all the community-made mods?

Now regarding this competition, people need to understand the reason behind why this was created. There is money on the line here guys. What does money make you do? Money makes me more motivated and of course gives the go in me to do my job. Everything evolves around money these days. This means that BI are encouraging people to make content for A3, but why do they have to encourage modders and not just let them come around without having to lure them in with money? Its because theres a lack of content! Did such a competition ever happened in A2? No, because it was already full of content! Yes you would say "I'm entering it because I enjoy creating content for Arma 3" but Im very sure that there is a little in you thats also eyeing at that prize. Ultimately, modders now become more encouraged to mod A3 instead of any other Arma games, heck, even instead of any other game titles since this is the only modding competition thats put up by its developers with prize money I know of currently. This then also leads to why BI had to do a reformation of the game and cut many content and features that were previously on screenshots, posts, newsfeed, etc (see this thread for more info about cut features). It just goes on and on really...

The conclusion now is, that A3 is not a finished/completed game yet and BI are putting money up for grabs to get people to help do what they're supposed to do - make more content, missions, etc when in history they were able to do that independently as evident by A2.

edit: Another thing that BI needs to understand is that us, the community, rant like this and write a thousand-word long posts overnight to express a point is because we actually love this masterpiece that you guys have bought into the gaming world. I discovered the Arma series around 2008-2009, and have only gotten hooked onto it quite recently after I found that it was a great way for Military enthusiast like me to try out real-world Military hardware, and play over real world operations. This game has literally just about changed my life and motivated me so much to join the Military and serve my country.

BI we love you, but please love us back. Listen to us the community members who for some, have sticked with you since the very early days.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Modder

[doln 10]

Ive just noticed that Bvrettski received an infraction for expressing his mind, and I must say that I do agree with the point he's trying to get to: A3 isnt a finished/complete game yet. If it is, why would BI still be adding so called "reinforcement packs" with new units/models in new patches? Did such a thing ever happened in A2? If I recall correctly, no. Patches in A2 came out to fix bugs and glitches, which are understandable. Yes A2 was first full of bugs, but atleast it had heaps more content at launch than A3 and it stayed that away until an Expansion came out bringing a new theater of war and lots of new content. Now the point Im trying to get is, why couldnt BI do the same thing as they did for A2 in A3? Why couldnt A3 be released at a point where "reinforcement packs" and "episodical release Campaign" is unnecessary? The company did it with its previous game, why couldnt they do it with their sequel? The thing is, have you ever always had to make a choice between playing A2 or A3 because of the lack of content? And how often do you lead back to A2:CO because it has much more content available, even just the base vanilla game without counting all the community-made mods?

Now regarding this competition, people need to understand the reason behind why this was created. There is money on the line here guys. What does money make you do? Money makes me more motivated and of course gives the go in me to do my job. Everything evolves around money these days. This means that BI are encouraging people to make content for A3, but why do they have to encourage modders and not just let them come around without having to lure them in with money? Its because theres a lack of content! Did such a competition ever happened in A2? No, because it was already full of content! Yes you would say "I'm entering it because I enjoy creating content for Arma 3" but Im very sure that there is a little in you thats also eyeing at that prize. Ultimately, modders now become more encouraged to mod A3 instead of any other Arma games, heck, even instead of any other game titles since this is the only modding competition thats put up by its developers with prize money I know of currently. This then also leads to why BI had to do a reformation of the game and cut many content and features that were previously on screenshots, posts, newsfeed, etc (see this thread for more info about cut features). It just goes on and on really...

The conclusion now is, that A3 is not a finished/completed game yet and BI are putting money up for grabs to get people to help do what they're supposed to do - make more content, missions, etc when in history they were able to do that independently as evident by A2.

edit: Another thing that BI needs to understand is that us, the community, rant like this and write a thousand-word long posts overnight to express a point is because we actually love this masterpiece that you guys have bought into the gaming world. I discovered the Arma series around 2008-2009, and have only gotten hooked onto it quite recently after I found that it was a great way for Military enthusiast like me to try out real-world Military hardware, and play over real world operations. This game has literally just about changed my life and motivated me so much to join the Military and serve my country.

BI we love you, but please love us back. Listen to us the community members who for some, have sticked with you since the very early days.

Arma 2 did have content packs. The AH64 comes to mind. Operation flashpoint (Arma: CWC) had numerous content packs too (It too only launched with 1 jet and no female npcs)

And no one is arguing Arma 3 isn't unfinished, there isn't even a full campaign, or more than 1 jet, but to claim Bohemia has ulterior motives for this contest would be going a bit far.

It's definitely to spur more content, but I think it's more of a "We want the community to have a great game" thing than a "we fucked up and we need the community to fill the gap" (which I don't think is true anyway) thing.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Doln

[iceman77 18]

Every game that gets released isn't "complete". That's how they gradually progress to a polished status. Unfortunately, Arma 3 is no different and just happens to be a massive project... big surprise LOL.

[[aps]gnat 28]

Ive just noticed that Bvrettski received an infraction for expressing his mind, and I must say that I do agree with the point he's trying to get to: A3 isnt a finished/complete game yet.

WTF ! Agree. Why is Bvrettski getting an infraction for such a post?! Poor form.

..... Sorry Modder, can't read all that :)