Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[progamer 14]

as someone who's played a lot of vbs 2, please don't.

What? You mean everything VBS2 related? The sway is a million times better. Feels like your soldier is breathing. And it's pretty realistic.

Though I don't think VBS2 goes too in depth with weight and fatigue. I could be wrong though.

Edited November 9, 2013 by ProGamer

[dnk 13]

Moving down a serious slope is a lot more tiring than moving on flat ground. IRL.

I'd say it's even harder than going UP.

[ceeeb 147]

Excellent work, I really like the changes! :)

[maturin 12]

Once we get the Body armor system better, the guy in the T-shirt won't be laughing very long.

He already won't be laughing. A guy in a T-shirt already dies in one hit.

[Greenfist 1863]

@Chortles Any +-2 variation between one or two digit values may fall in the margin of error since my script only polls values once a second and rounds them to integers. And even a second in script isn't necessarily an exact second in real time.

One could change the script to poll values like 4 times / second and display the average over the course of 2 seconds for more exact reading. Or even just show fatigue level in 1/10,000 and not 1/1,000.

[defk0n_NL 2]

Fatigue system looks good, only one mayor thing.

The fatigue drain while fast walking is higher then that of combat pace for both weapon up and down.

This was probably present before the fatigue system, might be tied into the actions. Because i have a mod with the hierarchy of these animations reversed and it still does this.

AmovPercMrunSrasWrflDf (Combat Pace) Drain: 5 Speed: 15 Km/h

AmovPercMtacSrasWrflDf (Fast Walk) Drain: 8 Speed: 11 Km/h

Here's a tiny & crude script for other scripting noobs like me to monitor the level of fatigue on screen:

sleep 2;
_newfat = 0;
_oldfat = 0;
_diffat = 0;
_oldpos = getpos player;
dist = 0;
player addAction ["Reset fatigue", "player setfatigue 0;"];
player addAction ["Reset distance","dist = 0;"]; 

while {true} do
{ 	
_newfat = round((getfatigue player)* 1000);
_diffat = (_newfat - _oldfat);
dist = dist + (_oldpos distance player);
_oldpos = getpos player;
hintsilent format["%1 fatigue\nChange %2\nDistance %3 m\nSpeed %4 km/h\nLoad %5",_newfat,_diffat,round(dist),round(speed player),load player];
_oldfat = _newfat;
sleep 1;	
}

Edited November 9, 2013 by defk0n_NL

[chortles 263]

@ Greenfist: So the polling/ticks are really only in one-second intervals? I thought it was slightly faster than that, though if you're saying that a second in script doesn't necessarily equal a second in real time... still, your script has been extremely useful in acquiring testing data and deriving evaluations about the fatigue tweaks, and I recommend your script to anyone here who's participating in the testing!

Speaking of which, I've also recommended and linked your script to at least one other Arma community off of these forums so that the user feedback won't just be a BI forums-only echo chamber. ;)

@ defk0n_NL: Err, I believe that you have those the other way around, "weapon raised" is combat pace while "weapon lowered" is jog...

[defk0n_NL 2]

@ defk0n_NL: Err, I believe that you have those the other way around, "weapon raised" is combat pace while "weapon lowered" is jog...

uhmmm, what? :confused:

You can raise and lower weapons while either combat pace or walking.

But just for clarifications let me give you the class names:

Combat Pace: AmovPercMrunSrasWrflDf

Combat Pace + Weapons Lowered: AmovPercMrunSlowWrflDf

Fast Walk: AmovPercMtacSrasWrflDf

Fast Walk + Weapons Lowered: AmovPercMtacSlowWrflDf

[Kerc Kasha 102]

What? You mean everything VBS2 related? The sway is a million times better. Feels like your soldier is breathing. And it's pretty realistic.

Though I don't think VBS2 goes too in depth with weight and fatigue. I could be wrong though.

The fatigue system is obnoxious and excessive, imagine the current stable system except instead of heavy breathing you get tunnel vision that's incredibly over the top compared to how much stuff you're carrying/how far you JOGGED(not sprinted).

[Greenfist 1863]

@ Greenfist: So the polling/ticks are really only in one-second intervals? I thought it was slightly faster than that, though if you're saying that a second in script doesn't necessarily equal a second in real time... still, your script has been extremely useful in acquiring testing data and deriving evaluations about the fatigue tweaks, and I recommend your script to anyone here who's participating in the testing!

Speaking of which, I've also recommended and linked your script to at least one other Arma community off of these forums so that the user feedback won't just be a BI forums-only echo chamber. ;)

Yes, once a second and rounded inaccurate numbers for readability and to give you a general view of what's happening. Someone more skilled may create a more accurate monitoring tool. Even though you can't spell sophisticated without the fist, doesn't mean Greenfist is a tool of surgical precision.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Greenfist

[maturin 12]

The fatigue system is obnoxious and excessive, imagine the current stable system except instead of heavy breathing you get tunnel vision that's incredibly over the top compared to how much stuff you're carrying/how far you JOGGED(not sprinted).

Well, VBS is supposed to model reality, not playable reality.

Basically, U.S. soldiers can only lumber around at a plodding half-jog pace with all that body armor and patrol gear on, with brief spurts of urgent movement.

[metalcraze 290]

Speed has changed, a lot.

Animation speed has changed, not the movement speed.

The small fatigue slowdown was already there and it's not enough. For extreme loads (which have to be made impossible after all this time) especially that is.

However, with the carryall full of missiles running speed doesn't exceed combat pace and is even slower.

Nope. Still faster than combat pace.

...

After some more testing slo-mo running anims do look weird and unnatural. Make them faster (but still slower than default) but slow down the actual running speed.

Also while you are at changing speeds how about making running up the steep slope slower too? Because soldiers run up steep hills and lose no speed.

Edited November 9, 2013 by metalcraze

[chortles 263]

uhmmm, what? :confused:

You can raise and lower weapons while either combat pace or walking.

Whoops... I'll say that what you're calling "fast walk" (AmovPercMtacSrasWrflDf) is what I've called "combat pace" since that's what's in the keybinds (I get the displayed state by toggling with C for "Combat Pace Toggle" or "Combat Pace 3 sec."), and what you're calling "combat pace" (AmovPercMrunSrasWrflDf), the normal movement speed, I've been instead calling jog or run. (Note that I'm running without mods enabled, so unlike you I do not have "the hierarchy of these animations reversed".) Basically when I move forward the character's weapon is lowered and he moves at the speed of and accumulates Fatigue at the rate of the first picture (15 km/h and 5 Fatigue/second), whereas when I tap C once and move forward the character's weapon is raised and he moves at the speed of and accumulates Fatigue at the rate of the second picture (11 km/h and 8 Fatigue/second).

I'll note that right now, manually lowering the weapon (LCtrl x 2) does not result in any appreciable difference (too granular to be displayed by Greenfist's script) other than the character moving barely faster than in the second picture at 12 km/h.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Animation speed has changed, not the movement speed.

The small fatigue slowdown was already there and it's not enough. For extreme loads (which have to be made impossible after all this time) especially that is.

Switched back to stable build, Carryall full of missiles and full fatigue, max speed is 15km/h.

Small slowdown? From 20-21km/h to 10-11km/h is a small slowdown? On stable the difference is ~25%, on dev it's ~50%, that's not small.

Nope. Still faster than combat pace.

No, slightly slower.

After some more testing slo-mo running anims do look weird and unnatural. Make them faster (but still slower than default) but slow down the actual running speed.

Also while you are at changing speeds how about making running up the steep slope slower too? Because soldiers run up steep hills and lose no speed.

Yea, maybe a tiny increase in anim.speed, I'm noticing slight sliding.

Agree on running uphill.

[defk0n_NL 2]

Whoops... I'll say that what you're calling "fast walk" (AmovPercMtacSrasWrflDf) is what I've called "combat pace" since that's what's in the keybinds (I get the displayed state by toggling with C for "Combat Pace Toggle" or "Combat Pace 3 sec."), and what you're calling "combat pace" (AmovPercMrunSrasWrflDf), the normal movement speed, I've been instead calling jog or run. (Note that I'm running without mods enabled, so unlike you I do not have "the hierarchy of these animations reversed".) Basically when I move forward the character's weapon is lowered and he moves at the speed of and accumulates Fatigue at the rate of the first picture (15 km/h and 5 Fatigue/second), whereas when I tap C once and move forward the character's weapon is raised and he moves at the speed of and accumulates Fatigue at the rate of the second picture (11 km/h and 8 Fatigue/second).

I'll note that right now, manually lowering the weapon (LCtrl x 2) does not result in any appreciable difference (too granular to be displayed by Greenfist's script) other than the character moving barely faster than in the second picture at 12 km/h.

Thats because combat pace is enabled the moment you spawn in. Something BIS should also look at. It would be weird calling the fast walk combat pace seeing you would have two buttons to go slower then you are currently going.

Anyway, The weapons lowered has the same problem as i illustrated in the pictures where. The fast walk weapons lowered has a higher stamina drain then the combat pace weapons lowered. Not the difference in speed.

Also OP should look at slightly increasing the speed of all weapons lowered animations. In the mod im working on it has a 1.2Km/H increase versus the weapons raised. It gives a little bit more of a immersive feeling when crossing large distances.

[maturin 12]

Wow, huge differences in speed when lugging around two rockets in a backpack. I really feel the drag.

[metalcraze 290]

Switched back to stable build, Carryall full of missiles and full fatigue, max speed is 15km/h.

Small slowdown? From 20-21km/h to 10-11km/h is a small slowdown? On stable the difference is ~25%, on dev it's ~50%, that's not small.

Hmm... Is the default unfatigued speed the same between branches though?

No, slightly slower.

When I'm using player setFatigue 1 there's definitely some minor speed up when going from combat pace to jog. Or is 1 not the max value (anymore)?

[Greenfist 1863]

When I'm using player setFatigue 1 there's definitely some minor speed up when going from combat pace to jog. Or is 1 not the max value (anymore)?

1 is still maximum. And yes, fully exhausted jog speed is 11km/h and combat pace 8 km/h.

[CaptainObvious 95]

When I'm using player setFatigue 1 there's definitely some minor speed up when going from combat pace to jog. Or is 1 not the max value (anymore)?

Ah yes, you're right about that, I seem to have noted only the unfatigued combat pace, fully fatigued combat pace is slower.

[petek 62]

hiya

Sprint to prone definitely too slow animation in my view. Kerry as grenadier in "Infantry Showcase" hitting the dirt looks like a Hollywood style slo-mo effect;-)

Nice to see work on this

cheers

[da12thMonkey 1943]

The fatigue system is obnoxious and excessive, imagine the current stable system except instead of heavy breathing you get tunnel vision that's incredibly over the top compared to how much stuff you're carrying/how far you JOGGED(not sprinted).

The full fatigue effects in VBS2 actually make me feel ill when they occur. The radial blurred tunnel vision thing that warps your peripheral vision gives me severe headaches and motion sickness.

I think BIS have found a pretty decent level for Arma 3 given that there needs to be some leeway to keep missions (official, user-made and in the MP environment) at an entertaining pace, and making your customers vomit over their keyboards every time they go out on an op is generally not conducive to retaining players. Users already complained about the induced effects of the fatigue blur that was present in earlier versions of Arma 3 - and that was nowhere near as nauseating as the full effects in VBS2 can be, nor was the recovery time for a player unit anywhere near as long - so it was a much less sustained onslaught of terrible blur.

[mr_centipede 31]

I concur that the sprint to prone animation while fatigued is too weird... inertia or momentum should dictate that he will fall flat immediately. But I do understand that while tired, sometimes you wanted to 'fall' slowly, but that means you need to create another set of animation... other than that, so far so good...

[chortles 263]

Thats because combat pace is enabled the moment you spawn in.

That's not my experience, but that's because we're referring to the opposite things when you keep calling it combat pace and I keep calling it jog, whereas you keep referring to fast walk and then I've never heard that outside of here. :icon_evil: Mind you, this is partially based on "Combat pace 3 sec." signifying that that (weapon shouldered and sighted) is what the devs are calling that speed...

Still, I'll note/agree that there's something off about noticeable greater Fatigue accumulation with no noticeable gain in Speed when standing or really any other benefit besides not risking a negligent discharge.

[bonchie 39]

It's too much.

A fit, fully trained soldier shouldn't be about to pass out from a 100 yard jog.

[-Coulum- 35]

A fit, fully trained soldier shouldn't be about to pass out from a 100 yard jog.

Good thing they don't do that, isn't then:)

I think that the current implimentation is pretty solid - I could come up with plenty of small personal preference tweaks but overall I am not unhappy with the current. The one addition I would like to see added if possible is:

• Fully fatigued speed of a soldier should vary depending on his load - A fully fatigued guy wearing a tshirt should still be able to move faster than guy armed to the teef. Right now, once you hit fully exhausted, there is now advantage for dressing light but there should be.
  
• 
  

Only big tweaks I have are:

• 
  
• Heavy Breathing Sound - get rid of it and make it a heartbeat in the background that increases in volume and pace when fatigued. Hearing others/AI breath heavy is fine/immersive but hearing yourself do so isn't
  
• 
  
• Prone + Fatigued Weaponsway - When tired the prone sway should be higher, right now you are still very effective at shooting even when you are fully exhausted just by going prone/high prone.
  
• 
  
• Recovery rate - its a little too fast when prone IMO but its not really that big a deal.
  
• 
  

Overall a very good start, and I believe that BIS is giving us a good balance between realism enjoyability. much better than the blur.

+I think there are some problems with the animation slow down - ie. when not fatigued at all there are still slowdowns during certain animations such as low crouch directly to low standing. I will have to look into that more though.

Edited November 10, 2013 by -Coulum-