Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Alwarren 2767]

Heavy Breathing Sound - get rid of it and make it a heartbeat in the background that increases in volume and pace when fatigued. Hearing others/AI breath heavy is fine/immersive but hearing yourself do so isn't

I'd like to see (or rather, hear) a low-pass filter for audio when very fatigued.

Prone + Fatigued Weaponsway - When tired the prone sway should be higher, right now you are still very effective at shooting even when you are fully exhausted just by going prone/high prone.

Agreed.

I'd also like to see a bigger gap in fatigue gain between combat pace and normal running.

[twisted 128]

wow, i spent a week or 2 in bf4 world and come back to this. awesome addition! I agree with -Coulum- on

Prone + Fatigued Weaponsway - When tired the prone sway should be higher, right now you are still very effective at shooting even when you are fully exhausted just by going prone/high prone.

also a silly question, is the weigth system automtically enabled for mod weapons?

[metalcraze 290]

Small slowdown? From 20-21km/h to 10-11km/h is a small slowdown? On stable the difference is ~25%, on dev it's ~50%, that's not small.

Testing with the script posted in this thread the default jog speed is 15 km/h and max fatigued (to get to which you need to run 1 km with a moderate load) 12 km/h so yeah the slowdown is only 20% (after 1 km of running mind you). That's almost non-existent.

Definitely needs to be harsher.

[Vegatry 10]

Overall looks pretty solid and feels better than old fatigue system.

It's a great step forward but still not perfect enough, and there're some animation issues exist.

Animation:

-Diving Prone animation in 1st person is very awkward after fatigued, it's seem too slow even with light weight equipment. It should not be affected by fatigue

-Cross over animation too slow

-Perhaps actually slow down the 'real' speed instead of slowing down animation speed?]

Sound:

-Please remove the heavy breathing sound or improve it. It's as worse as the blurry PP effect

Fatigue:

-Cross over increase too much fatigue.

-Jogging/combat pace increase too much fatigue, it's strictly penalized. Even a 35 kg normal gear will enter strong breathing stage after combat pace for 85m.

Aiming Sway:

-Crouch should have lesser fatigue aiming sway penalties

-Pron should have more fatigue aiming sway penalties

Scripting

-Maybe some scripts for modifying a units fatigue behavior? Such as more recovery rate or less fatigue penalties.

Suggestion:

-Perhaps a fast walk stage [slower than Combat pace, with lesser fatigue penalties], which player could maintain enough strength, speed, and situation awareness.

-Specify the weight, such as in a range of 20-30 kg have X penalties and range of 30 - 40 kg loadout have Y penalties.

Something else:

-Assault Backpack and Vest should carry a few more magazine than current stage, but less larger equipment.

-Not sure for this one, it seem like stance changing speed is not effected by weight?

Edited November 10, 2013 by Vegatry

[byrkoet 1]

I am one of many people in my group who find that the values regarding fatigue should be pared with real data for comfortable play, since stamina is a major requirement for the military. How is that achieved? Well, consider the following first:

A soldier needs to fulfill a set of requirements. I have rounded the requirements of a few armies, including but not limited to the US army and the Armed forces of the Netherlands (source: US Army & Armed forces of the Netherlands. The latter being a consideration.)

The stamina tests require you to make a certain distance within a certain amount of time; with or without added weight. So if you consider that, than you'll have pretty robust fatigue over distance values.

Note: the difference between running and sprinting is that sprinting is your maximum performance, arguably around 25km/h with no additional weight.

The rounded figures would, though arguably, be somewhere around the following:

Distance requirements, with or without additional weight.

• 50 minute run + additional exercises (the latter noting that the soldier should not be at full fatigue);
  
• 50 minute run carrying ±25kg (didn't note any additions, so full fatigue is probably considered).
  

A distance over time requirement

• ±3 kilometers over 1/4 hour (so with a floor average of 12km/h. About half of maximum performance, so we'll work for simplicity's sake with half its value).
  

To conclude the few figures above, you'll be looking at something between the lines of these:

- Full fatigue, meaning you'll be forced to march, is achieved after 6 minutes of sprinting.

- Full fatigue with an addition of 25kg is achieved with about 1/4 of the above: 1.5 minutes of sprinting.

Since comfortable play with a realistic feel is desired, we want the weight to be steep, but range from an average weight.

So the steepening should begin after a weight of say: a minuscule backpack, completely filled minimal gear and an assault rifle.

That way players will notice they are carrying something out of the ordinary and they will experience the need to stand down some items.

Noticing - that is another point, a very crucial one. Visually acquiring information about the 'weight' you are carrying is pretty well done in Arma 3.

Since you don't have a scale with you all the time - obvious me is obvious. So no criticism on that part, rather a compliment. I find it to be very well done, since volume is objective and weight isn't - for obvious reasons (muscle groups... there I go again).

Alright, back on track.

Since I now have given desired values for fatigue by sprinting to be able to play comfortably. I'll probably have to get to aiming. I'll start with a bold statement, but a rather true one:

Weapon sway isn't the product of fatigue in the direct sense. One can focus and control his/hers need for taking a deep breath, but that ability differs considerably.

As well as the ability to cancel out the need of acknowledging pain when shot (which is another multiplying value for imprecision in Arma 3, check the config), is also arguably different per soldier.

Knowing this you'll either say I am wrong, or you'll say that the imprecision algorithm has to change for the worse. Well, I'd have to object to both. It is fine, because we just want comfortable play - that is all really.

So I am suggesting that both fatigue and damage should have less of an impact on sway while aiming down sight. That also goes for the weird sounds infantry units make. I have never heard someone breath that awkwardly - seriously do something about it.

(tl;dr) So I have often noted that I and many players who I speak with regularly just want comfortable play. Playing in the shoes of a real, well trained soldier. Not some coach potato in a military outfit.

I might have just written the previous sentence rather than the whole thing, though I figured I should share my order of thought before I suggest something in the first place.

Edited November 10, 2013 by byrkoet

[CaptainObvious 95]

Testing with the script posted in this thread the default jog speed is 15 km/h and max fatigued (to get to which you need to run 1 km with a moderate load) 12 km/h so yeah the slowdown is only 20% (after 1 km of running mind you). That's almost non-existent.

I compared the absolute maximum speeds you can achieve with and without fatigue.

What is a moderate load in that case? By running you mean what, jogging or sprinting?

[metalcraze 290]

I compared the absolute maximum speeds you can achieve with and without fatigue.

Yeah, but it's not relevant to normal gameplay. Sprint is used as a last resort, it's not normal movement.

I've used both sprinting and usual run to get to the max fatigue faster. The load was armor/rifle/pistol/frags/smokes/10+ mags etc. No heavy stuff.

Also my point is that maximum, absolute exhaustion shouldn't produce only 20% slowdown penalty. Absolute exhaustion is absolute and must be harsher. The distance at which you reach it is another question.

The point is that no matter how extreme the loadout is now and no matter the distance a soldier would travel - the disadvantage of full exhaustion compared to a fresh guy is very small.

After running for 50 km with 60 kgs on the back you still will be only 3 km/h slower than a zero-load guy who never moved.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Yeah, but it's not relevant to normal gameplay. Sprint is used as a last resort, it's not normal movement.

I've used both sprinting and usual run to get to the max fatigue faster. The load was armor/rifle/pistol/frags/smokes/10+ mags etc. No heavy stuff.

Also my point is that maximum, absolute exhaustion shouldn't produce only 20% slowdown penalty. Absolute exhaustion is absolute and must be harsher. The distance at which you reach it is another question.

The point is that no matter how extreme the loadout is now and no matter the distance a soldier would travel - the disadvantage of full exhaustion compared to a fresh guy is very small.

After running for 50 km with 60 kgs on the back you still will be only 3 km/h slower than a zero-load guy who never moved.

Agree completely. The gear bar should have linerally effect or something like 20% steps how much your max speed is when fatigued. 20% steps it could go like this:

0-20% gear -> When fatigued speed doesn't reduce. Just like with the old system that's still in main branch. You can get to this really if you want to be light. Rifle, 5 mags and 3 grenades can hit this.

20%-40% gear -> When fatigued speed is reduced like now. Though Vanilla Team Leader or Grenadier can't just reach this. Fair enough?

40%-60% gear -> When fatigued speed is reduced bit more than above. Not really sure how much.

60%-80% gear -> When fatigued speed is reduced even more. This is where you're trying too much.

80%-100% gear -> You should only walk. You're just a backpack slave.

This kind of thing added to the new fatigue system would really make the difference. Though I think you should be able to slowly jog all the time except in that last case. The jog is just very slow in some cases.

Edited November 10, 2013 by St. Jimmy

[CaptainObvious 95]

Yeah, but it's not relevant to normal gameplay. Sprint is used as a last resort, it's not normal movement.

I don't know, I tend to use sprint in combat situations a lot, not only as a last resort.

I've used both sprinting and usual run to get to the max fatigue faster. The load was armor/rifle/pistol/frags/smokes/10+ mags etc. No heavy stuff.

Also my point is that maximum, absolute exhaustion shouldn't produce only 20% slowdown penalty. Absolute exhaustion is absolute and must be harsher. The distance at which you reach it is another question.

I'm actually intrigued to go for a run and see how I manage 1km with gear, I never actually tried that during my service, but I'm somewhat confident I could do it without being totally exhausted, although excessive amounts of beverages and junk food have taken a toll since

The point is that no matter how extreme the loadout is now and no matter the distance a soldier would travel - the disadvantage of full exhaustion compared to a fresh guy is very small.

After running for 50 km with 60 kgs on the back you still will be only 3 km/h slower than a zero-load guy who never moved.

Now that is a valid point for sure, I doubt if any average soldier would manage that in one go..

How to implement that properly, not able to run at all after a certain load and fatigue has been reached, more severe screen blur and vignette?

[byrkoet 1]

How to implement that properly, not able to run at all after a certain load and fatigue has been reached, more severe screen blur and vignette?

Definitely not blur. Vignette would be sufficient if we're talking about quite a run while carrying extreme loads.

[St. Jimmy 272]

How to implement that properly, not able to run at all after a certain load and fatigue has been reached, more severe screen blur and vignette?

No more blur or vignette or any dam screen effects. Maybe a very simple UI indicator showing how fatigued you are. If you can only walk it should be enough, no need to put anything to give people a headache.

[metalcraze 290]

I'm not claiming a character should be totally exhausted after 1 km. 1 km is just when fatigue reached absolute maximum in the game for me so I was going from that.

Increase the distance for max exhaustion for all I care (of course not with 60 kgs on the back) but within realistic limits. In fact it will only be better for the game.

After all the fatigue value has a very wide range so making the speed limit range wider over the longer distance is a viable solution.

Max speed affected by weight will be pretty cool too. Want to carry .50 cal with a Jav? Pay the speed price.

[CaptainObvious 95]

No more blur or vignette or any dam screen effects. Maybe a very simple UI indicator showing how fatigued you are. If you can only walk it should be enough, no need to put anything to give people a headache.

I'd take vignette over some fatigue'o'meter any day, human vision tends to black out under extreme stress and IMO current vignette effect does a pretty good job in telling you you should maybe take a break.

[byku 13]

]

[*]Heavy Breathing Sound - get rid of it and make it a heartbeat in the background that increases in volume and pace when fatigued. Hearing others/AI breath heavy is fine/immersive but hearing yourself do so isn't

Personally disagree, heartbeat sound would be very unimmersive, while heavy breathing in my opinion is spot on. When I run a lot i HEAR my heavy breathing a lot ;), not my heartbeat.

[metalcraze 290]

I like heavy breathing too. Especially now that it's gradual. Heart beat while atmospheric in OFP was rather distracting. IRL you feel it not hear it.

[Greenfist 1863]

The heavy breathing is fine but how about fading out/muffling all other sounds after fatigue has been over 90% for a certain period of time. I know you haven't ever become deaf when running but it would simulate extreme exhaustion and lowered level of consciousness.

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah I actually don't mind the heavy breathing. In combat vids you hear guys doing that a few minutes into combat just from making a few sprints to cover. The reason I suggest ditching it is because people get confused by it. Ie. they here their guy breathing heavy after 100m and start complaining that there soldier is exhausted after 100m - even though the soldier isn't actually, and is still performing at the same level he does when unfatigued. It gives people the wrong impression.

Also my point is that maximum, absolute exhaustion shouldn't produce only 20% slowdown penalty. Absolute exhaustion is absolute and must be harsher. The distance at which you reach it is another question.

Yes this would be the ultimate goal from a realism perspective. Make it so that max exhaustion occurs after a 30 minute jog or more (of course depending on loadout), but make it so you are forced to walk when that happens and can't shoot for shit. Basically right now the process is to short. when you reach full fatigue now, this should only be the first phase. You should get even more fatigued if you keep running, and slow down even more as you do so until you are forced to walk. That said I think that the distance you are able to sprint is perfect as is.

The effects and time attached to full (1) fatigue now should really be the effects of one tenth fatigue (.1) leaving more room to get even more exhausted.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Increase the distance for max exhaustion for all I care (of course not with 60 kgs on the back) but within realistic limits. In fact it will only be better for the game.

After all the fatigue value has a very wide range so making the speed limit range wider over the longer distance is a viable solution.

Max speed affected by weight will be pretty cool too. Want to carry .50 cal with a Jav? Pay the speed price.

I think now we are on a same page, agreed fully.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Yep I like the breathing. It feels pretty immersive that the guy starts breathing bit heavily after short time just like every man would probably do.

[chortles 263]

@ CaptainObvious: Mind you, I recall metalcraze's complaint being that ".50 cal with a Jav" was possible at all... but a dev said months ago that that is possible and they'd only go the "fatigue penalty" route instead of an actual 'ban', so at least this is consistent with that dev's idea.

[dnk 13]

Guys seem like you want 2 different "fatigue" values, one for short-term "fatigue" and one for longer-term "exhaustion".

That would be nice, yes. Having the current fatigue system plus something that kept tabs on your overall energy levels, which would drop slowly over time but would not recover quickly either.

something like (note this isn't tested, just conceptual):

///// VARIABLES /////
_guy = _this select 0;                                 // assume this is run as execVM in a unit's init with [this,1] for arguments;
_stam = _this select 1;
_guy setvariable ["energy",1];
_delta_fatigue = 0;
_min_fatigue = 0;
_old_fatigue = 0;
_energy = _guy getvariable "energy";

if (_stam > 1) then {
   _stam = 1;
};

///// MAIN LOOP /////
while {true} do  {
   sleep 1;                                 // 1-second check intervals, 60x/minute adjustments

   _energy = _guy getvariable "energy";
   _delta_fatigue = _old_fatigue - (getfatigue _guy);

   if (_delta_fatigue < 0) then {
       _guy setvariable ["energy",(_energy) - (_delta_fatigue / 30)];  // takes longer to regain than to lose energy
       _energy = _guy getvariable "energy";
   } else {
       _guy setvariable ["energy",(_energy) - (_delta_fatigue / 10)];
       _energy = _guy getvariable "energy";
   };


   if ((_energy) > _stam) then {
       _guy setvariable ["energy",_stam];                // max energy, set through script arguments, so adjustable for units
       _energy = _stam;
   };

   if (_energy < 0) then {
       _guy setvariable ["energy",0];
       _energy = 0;
   };

   _min_fatigue = (1 - _energy)/ 2 + _energy;                // your minimum fatigue is 1/2 the difference of energy and no fatigue (50% at highest)

   if ((getfatigue _guy) < _min_fatigue) then {
       _guy setfatigue _min_fatigue;
   };

   if (_delta_fatigue < 0) then {                        // lower energy results in lower fatigue decrease
       _guy setfatigue (_old_fatigue + _delta_fatigue * _min_fatigue);
   };

   _old_fatigue = getfatigue _guy;                     // this will be "old" next time delta_fatigue is checked

   ///// DEBUG /////
   _guy globalchat format["%1 energy %2 == fatigue %3 == Dfatigue %4",_guy,_energy,getfatigue _guy,_old_fatigue - getfatigue _guy];
};

Of course, you can try this out for yourselves as it's a basic script (though I haven't had a chance to test it for myself, so bewarned it may be totally broken).

Edited November 11, 2013 by DNK

[dmarkwick 261]

As far as on-screen indication goes, if most people dislike either visual effect and/or fatigue meter, then maybe the stance indicator could be enhanced with a variable colour. Green for normal/unfatigued, merging through yellow to red for maximum. It would give a basic indication without the health-bar look.

---------- Post added at 09:44 ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 ----------

@ CaptainObvious: Mind you, I recall metalcraze's complaint being that ".50 cal with a Jav" was possible at all... but a dev said months ago that that is possible and they'd only go the "fatigue penalty" route instead of an actual 'ban', so at least this is consistent with that dev's idea.

Anything that is possible should be possible... with appropriate penalty :)

[Greenfist 1863]

As far as on-screen indication goes, if most people dislike either visual effect and/or fatigue meter, then maybe the stance indicator could be enhanced with a variable colour. Green for normal/unfatigued, merging through yellow to red for maximum. It would give a basic indication without the health-bar look.

I think a red guy in the stance indicator would be confused with actual health status. Every new meter to the screen is too much, in my opinion. There has to be a way to indicate it with some effect.

[byrkoet 1]

I think a red guy in the stance indicator would be confused with actual health status. Every new meter to the screen is too much, in my opinion. There has to be a way to indicate it with some effect.

Exactly, and above all: we already argued about the vignette that could be enhanced and the breathing sounds possibly made better.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Well a fatigue meter could take only couple millimeters from your screen so I don't see why people would be against it. It can be even a small square inside existing UI like in corner of stance indicator or a vertical or horizontal bar in the edge of the weapon status UI.

I think the audio already tells you very well how exhausted you're. I don't have troubles to recognize how exhausted I'm. Also the vignette kicks in just when you've reached the point when you can't sprint. If you want to indicate fatigue with vignette then it could be smaller at first in the point when it kicks in now and increase to the level what's max now. Some people probably struggle with the vignette what we've now already so no need to increase it from that point.