Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[St. Jimmy 272]

Things that were wrong in the fatigue system:

- It was too short term. Lowering the stamina gain and recovery would've been better. ACE and other mods made at least that gain part. The vanilla was bit too harsh and I don't know any hardcore player that didn't think like that.

- Unarmed and binocular running was less fatigueing. Actually that was the rate fatigue gain rate for normal armed movement I would've liked to see.

- You couldn't load up yourself full because there wasn't anything negative like forced walking to balance it.

- AI had some problems because they like to move gun up and do constant movements.

Stamina fixed two of those issues. Two other things it didn't fix because it only removed the animation slowdown feature and feature removing isn't improvement or fix. BRING THE ANIMATION SLOWDOWN IN THE STAMINA. Otherwise BIS you failed with the stamina. There's only one week I believe before Nexus update is released and that's a freaking short time to get feedback for the animation slowdown and overall stamina. It took long time to make the fatigue like it is currently.

If you're going to release Nexus update this month I'd say you need to postpone the stamina to the next unless you're very fast with the animation slowdown feature. Or postpone the whole update. Or you can make yourself look stupid and bring half assed feature over a working one... Too bad it looks like that right now but it's still not too late.

There's no option for bringing stamina without animation slowdown as it was in fatigue. I think I don't need to say what kind of a turning point that patch will remembered if you do that.

[teabagginpeople 398]

Agreed Al.

I feel pretty much the same as jimmy. The fatigue with some balancing. And the positive additions stamina brought would be a nice overall feature. that all types of player could learn to love.

Devs at this point are probably feeling like" F U guys gonna make all the soldiers have snakeskin rocket boots and pink wings give you something to moan about ".

[Alwarren 2767]

Things that were wrong in the fatigue system:

- It was too short term. Lowering the stamina gain and recovery would've been better. ACE and other mods made at least that gain part. The vanilla was bit too harsh and I don't know any hardcore player that didn't think like that.

- Unarmed and binocular running was less fatigueing. Actually that was the rate fatigue gain rate for normal armed movement I would've liked to see.

 

Easiest fix would have been the introduction of a "stamina effect" slider. Leave it at 1.0 to get the current fatigue, move it to 0.5 to fatigue at half the rate, set it to anything higher to make it more punishing. Set it to 0.1 for ten time the running capabilities. Would have served EVERYONE for all game types/play styles.

[Variable 322]

For heavens sake, let us keep the current fatigue system, at least as an option! Please! Casual coop player here, nothing fancy.

[roshnak 41]

The worst thing about the change to the stamina system is that it ruined loadout balance. Under the fatigue system, you could take excessively heavy loadouts, but would be punished in the form of reduced mobility and more rapidly building weapon sway. That's no longer the case with the stamina system, so BIS has to mess with weapon weights so some weapons are unreasonably heavy and it's not even possible to take certain combinations of equipment.

 

Fatigue had some pretty far reaching gameplay consequences and the change to stamina had a big impact on those.

 

Easiest fix would have been the introduction of a "stamina effect" slider. Leave it at 1.0 to get the current fatigue, move it to 0.5 to fatigue at half the rate, set it to anything higher to make it more punishing. Set it to 0.1 for ten time the running capabilities. Would have served EVERYONE for all game types/play styles.

 

It would certainly be easier, but I don't think it would be a good idea. Under this system, players would have to potentially learn new fatigue limitations every time they joined a server.

[Alwarren 2767]

It would certainly be easier, but I don't think it would be a good idea. Under this system, players would have to potentially learn new fatigue limitations every time they joined a server.

 

Not much to "learn". Just a single number.

[roshnak 41]

Not much to "learn". Just a single number.

 

If fatigue were as simple as that we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. As I mentioned in my previous post, fatigue impacts many aspects of the game. There would be no consistency for what kind of loadouts you could get away with from server to server. Or how much you could maneuever with each loadout. Or what kinds of terrain it was okay to traverse in combat or for how long.

 

I know "just making it an option" seems like a good compromise, but, as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, these kinds of core gameplay mechanics (movement, aiming) should be consistent. It allows players to become familiar with their limitations within the game. I want to know whether or not I can safely sprint from one piece of cover to another and still fight effectively with a given loadout. I want to know how quickly I can get from point A to point B and whether I will need to distribute ammunition amongst my team to do so. I want to know whether I can jog up a hill or if I will need to walk up it if I am expecting contact on the other side. I don't want to have to guess or try to remember whether I joined a "hardcore" server. I want to know these things without even thinking about it. That becomes much more difficult without consistent settings to become familiar with.

 

Edit: Of course many of these things are no longer even a concern with the new stamina system.

[Alwarren 2767]

If fatigue were as simple as that we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. As I mentioned in my previous post, fatigue impacts many aspects of the game. There would be no consistency for what kind of loadouts you could get away with from server to server. Or how much you could maneuever with each loadout. Or what kinds of terrain it was okay to traverse in combat or for how long.

In how far does that differ from the casual option now to disable fatigue completely? A fuzzy choice in my opinion is better than an all or nothing seeing how you currently can oly have it on or off.

Every mod used on a server will change the rules. See RHS and their modified armor perversion system.

I know "just making it an option" seems like a good compromise, but, as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, these kinds of core gameplay mechanics (movement, aiming) should be consistent. It allows players to become familiar with their limitations within the game.

This would imply the advanced flight model should go. Consistency is fine, but for that there needs to be a consensus on the mechanics, which in a game with diverse players like Arna will be next to impossible.

The fact that we are having this discussion is proof for that. I got one will insist on slowdowns. Others don't want that. A configurable system allows to adjust. Otherwise we could argue away keyboard mailings with the same consistency argument.

Arna is too much of a platform for a one-fits-all ruleset. DayZ with fatigue might be more annoying than fun. My playstyle requires it. Where do you draw the line? I don't care about consistency, I want my game experience tailored to my taste, I don't want compromised for the sake of needless consistency.

Demanding consistency means demanding everyone plays the same. I find that presumptuous. So assume we go for a consistent model. Which one should it be? The one we already have? Find with me. However, not find with a lot of other players.

I want to know whether or not I can safely sprint from one piece of cover to another and still fight effectively with a given loadout. I want to know how quickly I can get from point A to point B and whether I will need to distribute ammunition amongst my team to do so. I want to know whether I can jog up a hill or if I will need to walk up it if I am expecting contact on the other side. I don't want to have to guess or try to remember whether I joined a "hardcore" server. I want to know these things without even thinking about it. That becomes much more difficult without consistent settings to become familiar with.

You make it sound like you are going from one server to another on a minute basis. Right now you will find a number of servers that have fatigue disabled, how does that fit with your argument? If what BIS has been saying is true and I can mod always of fatigue, how does that fit?

It's not like everybody would use wildly different settings. Most casual servers will use a low seeing, while clans are likely to use the default.

Modding already interferes with your demand for consistency. Are you proposing to remove it?

I think not.

Sure, you need to be able to see what seeing a server is running. But that is all that is needed.

Send from my tablet, so pardon any autocorrect bollocks

[twisted 128]

A stated goal of ArmA's gameplay was authenticity.

Is an infantry simulation authentic without the consequences of physical exhaustion?

To excerpt Sun Tzu's Art of War;

 

How could exhaustion's dismissal be anything remotely authentic to infantry simulation? It's like calling dogfighting without energy management a flight simulator, when energy management is the entire point of Air Combat Maneuvering.

 

one of the best posts ive read for a while.

 

thats why the recent move to degrade stamina's effects is not good. please BIS, lightening what is already a really easy system to game is not doing justice to the role that it is supposed to play.

[Beagle 684]

I don't think the playerbase that BIS is catering for nowadays has any use for Sun Tsu or Clausewitz. In fact those considerations were fist introduced into the setries with ArmA 3 at all. I guess it was to early and the main audience is not prepared for that level. Nothing is more difficult than the orderly retreat from untenable positionm thats we we rather charge and respawn.

[nkenny 1057]

Put bluntly, if you haven't tried the latest iteration of the stamina system. Your opinion carries little weight beyond scare tactics.

 

The new system of stamina is intuitively different, it is also also a work in progress. With the new system I find myself thinking about my loadout more. Though it does seem to cater to a faster style of gameplay, that is, that the soldier in a combat situation will do a bit of sprinting. Thusly, regulating access to that type of combat speed is what is immediately relevant to gameplay. And you know what? That very much seems to me to be the case to me.

 

As for the hardcore realism crowd. I play in an ACE using community, and generally, weight and stamina considerations are null and nothing. Vanilla Arma3 (pre-dev version) is much harsher on the loadouts than ACE is-- which is at times laughably forgiving.

 

Bohemia are advancing a view of the vanilla game, centred on making meaningful choices, all whilst adding powerful tools (and codehandles) to create and manipulate a stamina system more to ones liking! (something which many mods and gamemods already do) Whats not to like?

 

-k

[roshnak 41]

Every mod used on a server will change the rules. See RHS and their modified armor perversion system.

 

Mods are their own thing. Changing gameplay is pretty much what mods are all about.

 

Demanding consistency means demanding everyone plays the same. I find that presumptuous. So assume we go for a consistent model. Which one should it be? The one we already have? Find with me. However, not find with a lot of other players.

 

Nearly every game ever made has consistent core mechanics. You almost never have changing jump heights, run speeds, aiming mechanics, etc. within a single game.

 

You make it sound like you are going from one server to another on a minute basis.

 

You don't have to rapidly jump from server to server for differing mechanics to interfere with your ability to develop an intuitive understanding of game mechanics (because there is no standard which you can develop an intuitive understanding of).

 

I'm not saying there shouldn't be options in Arma 3. I just think that certain things, player movement being one of them, should remain consistent in an unmodded setting so that players don't have to potentially relearn core aspects of the game if they join random public servers.

 

Put bluntly, if you haven't tried the latest iteration of the stamina system. Your opinion carries little weight beyond scare tactics.

 

Why would you assume that people posting in the dev branch subforum haven't tried the dev branch?

[VanZant 48]

Things that were wrong in the fatigue system:

- It was too short term. Lowering the stamina gain and recovery would've been better. ACE and other mods made at least that gain part. The vanilla was bit too harsh and I don't know any hardcore player that didn't think like that.

- Unarmed and binocular running was less fatigueing. Actually that was the rate fatigue gain rate for normal armed movement I would've liked to see.

- You couldn't load up yourself full because there wasn't anything negative like forced walking to balance it.

- AI had some problems because they like to move gun up and do constant movements.

 

There is a feasible solution for the last one. I've tested it personally and does the trick.

Make that regularly, for example every 3 seconds, every team member in group who is following the player within a predefined radius decreases his fatigue value by a percentage, closer to the player, greater percentage. And finally compensate the final regeneration rate with the load value.

As said this has been tested and, without being perfect, the player can command a group very decently as the selected members who are following the player, unless carrying a large load or getting stuck somewhere, will have almost the same value of fatigue. No more people 400 meters behind without a reason.

[Alwarren 2767]

Put bluntly, if you haven't tried the latest iteration of the stamina system. Your opinion carries little weight beyond scare tactics.

 

I am not sure who you are referring to, but yes, I have both stable and dev branch installed and I have tried the latest iteration.

[nkenny 1057]

@Alwarren and roshnak
Pardon. That line was poorly written, hastily I might add, at work. It was not meant to pick out any of the most recent posters in particular.  I stand by the rest of the post however. 

 

-k 

[Alwarren 2767]

Can I ask the powers above, you said it will be possible to mod the fatigue/stamina system. Will it be possible to add the slowdown of animations by mod?

[Greenfist 1863]

Can I ask the powers above, you said it will be possible to mod the fatigue/stamina system. Will it be possible to add the slowdown of animations by mod?

I'd say yes, because there's already a script command to set the animation speed.

And Bohemia is releasing Legacy Fatigue Mod as an example mod for those who want to go back to the good ol' days.

[djporternz 27]

Taken directly from SITREP #00133:

We're also preparing to publish a Legacy Fatigue Mod as example modification with sources in Arma 3 Samples. Senior Designer Josef Zemánek will also upload an unofficial functional mod version on Workshop soon. This mod both provides a starting point to players and modders who wish to replicate the previous behavior, but also showcases the enhanced (scripted) control you can have over these systems. In addition, we hope to still better explain our motivations for these changes both on the forums and in a future OPREP.

 

 

So it indeed looks like we will have the best of both worlds available to us. This goes a long way to mitigating almost all of the criticisms that have been posted... almost ;-)

[en3x 209]

Taken directly from SITREP #00133:

 

So it indeed looks like we will have the best of both worlds available to us. This goes a long way to mitigating almost all of the criticisms that have been posted... almost ;-)

 

Well from my perspective I will never play fatigue, since I can't play mod - public server I play on run vannila arma, so I'm stuck with stamina.

[gippo 38]

Well from my perspective I will never play fatigue, since I can't play mod - public server I play on run vannila arma, so I'm stuck with stamina.

Yup, public servers which don't use mods are excluded from this. Releasing the mod won't change anything for us. Modders can already change (almost) anything they want, it just kind of makes their work easier.

[twisted 128]

Stamina in its current state works for me. It feels quite intuitive.

But it would be good to have the fatigue/ stamina option as a keyword for mission makers to simply choose from. Especially as the work is being done fur both by bis now.

[danil-ch 165]

Stamina recuperation and exhaustion rates have been improved, to keep the game decisive, yet fluid

Tweaked: It now takes 30 seconds for the available stamina to fully regenerate from total exhaustion instead of 45 and the exhaustion cooldown

Tweaked: Removed animation slowdown upon exhaustion

 

while the availability of sprinting after reaching an exhausted state has been further restricted

the exhaustion cooldown (period of regeneration when you still cannot sprint) now takes 10 seconds instead of 15.

 

Contradiction? :unsure:

[danil-ch 165]

Stamina in its current state works for me. It feels quite intuitive.

It still an inferior system

 

*No slowdown

*No stamina penalty when injured

*No stamina penalty for different stances

*No visual feedback

 

P.S. Sorry for double posting.

[machineabuse 11]

I'd say yes, because there's already a script command to set the animation speed.

And Bohemia is releasing Legacy Fatigue Mod as an example mod for those who want to go back to the good ol' days.

Good news, thanks for keeping us on the up.

The only 2 concerns I have is how will conflicts between different mods stamina systems be addressed and how the AI will handle it. Hopefully this will be addressed at an infrastructure level.

[Varanon 892]

I'd say yes, because there's already a script command to set the animation speed.

And Bohemia is releasing Legacy Fatigue Mod as an example mod for those who want to go back to the good ol' days.

 

There is a script command for that ? The only thing I can see is a config entry that allows to set the movement speed multiplier on steep terrain.

 

 

Taken directly from SITREP #00133:

 

So it indeed looks like we will have the best of both worlds available to us. This goes a long way to mitigating almost all of the criticisms that have been posted... almost ;-)

 

Almost... well, I would have preferred the new one to be a mod, and the old one (you know, the "authentic" one) to be vanilla. As it is now, they threw out the authentic one (that goes well with the general "Authenticism" of Arma) and replaced it by an arcadey one. And let's not deny it: The new one is much more gamey than the other one, with the "you can sprint for exactly 20 Seconds before you fall back to the exact walking speed" instead of the gradual decline that we had before.

 

In general, the new iteration of the fatigue (or stamina) system is utterly disappointing from an authenticity standpoint (and sorry if I dwell on that word, I was slapped in the face with that word during Alpha so many times when I said "realistic" back then)